Connecting train missed due to late train - ticket still valid for next service?

[Hedge Fund]

I have googled this query, but it’s probably better to ask the experts.

My once-weekly commute to work involves 3 different trains, all from different operators: Northern - Avanti - Southern, and the reverse journey to come back home.

I always book advance tickets, and if all of those trains are on time, there are no issues making my connections with time to spare.

But Avanti always seems to be the one that causes me to almost miss either my Southern train on the way out, or my Northern train on the way back.

If, for example, Avanti made me miss my Southern train, can I still use my advance ticket to get on the next available Southern service?

If so, great, but what about the ticket barriers? Is it simply a case of remonstrating with the barrier guard type person to let me though, and are they used to this kind of issue?

Thanks

 

[jfollows]

Yes.

Advance Tickets Terms and Conditions | National Rail

The terms and conditions for using Advance tickets on National Rail services. Advance tickets are single tickets for selected journeys, available in First Class and Standard Class, offering the best available price for each journey.

www.nationalrail.co.uk

5.2 If delays occur while travelling, you will be allowed to take the next available train(s) to complete your journey.

Most staff are familiar with this.

 

[Hadders]

If, for example, Avanti made me miss my Southern train, can I still use my advance ticket to get on the next available Southern service?

When you change trains you need to make sure you leave sufficient connection time, otherwise you won't be covered.

If you buy your tickets in a single transaction from an accredited retailer then the itinerary will take account of the minimum connection times. If you simply buy three separate single tickets yourself, as separate transactions, then you need to make sure you leave sufficient time between arrival of the first train and departyure of the second.

For example, one point where this is could go wrong is between Avanti (arriving, I assume at Euston) and departure of the Southern train (I suspect from Victoria). For the bulk of the day you must leave 39 mins between scheduled arrival at Euston and scheduled departure from Victoria to be covered. This increases to 49 minutes if making the transfer between midnight and 05:29.

If you let us know the exact journey you're making and how you buy your tickets we can tell you whether you're leaving sufficient time.

 

[1D53]

For the bulk of the day you must leave 39 days between scheduled arrival at Euston and scheduled departure from Victoria to be covered.

I know Avanti punctuality is bad but....

 

[Hedge Fund]

When you change trains you need to make sure you leave sufficient connection time, otherwise you won't be covered.

If you buy your tickets in a single transaction from an accredited retailer then the itinerary will take account of the minimum connection times. If you simply buy three separate single tickets yourself, as separate transactions, then you need to make sure you leave sufficient time between arrival of the first train and departyure of the second.

For example, one point where this is could go wrong is between Avanti (arriving, I assume at Euston) and departure of the Southern train (I suspect from Victoria). For the bulk of the day you must leave 39 mins between scheduled arrival at Euston and scheduled departure from Victoria to be covered. This increases to 49 minutes if making the transfer between midnight and 05:29.

If you let us know the exact journey you're making and how you buy your tickets we can tell you whether you're leaving sufficient time.

You guess entirely correctly.

Arrive at EUS at 19:12, then tube to VIC, and leave VIC at 20:05.

On the way back, its arrive at CAR 20:52 walk 50 metres to another platform; and leave CAR at 21:07.

 

[Watershed]

Both are valid connections meeting the minimum connection time, so you'd be entitled to take the next train if you miss your connection due to previous delays/disruption.

Many barrier lines controlled by GTR (e.g. Victoria) are set to automatically reject Advance tickets so they can be manually inspected to check you're travelling at the correct time (paper tickets aren't "smart" enough to be encoded with this information). However, in my experience the barrier staff at large stations like Victoria don't tend to be particularly interested in the details, just that it looks vaguely like a valid ticket. If they do point out you're travelling on the "wrong" train then you just explain about the disruption. Similarly if there's a check onboard.

Incidentally it may well be cheaper to buy split tickets, e.g. X to Carlisle, Carlisle to Y. There are plenty of split ticketing retailers out there that will suggest combinations to you. With split tickets, you have the same right to Delay Repay and to take the next available train in the event of disruption, provided it remains a valid journey (i.e. that you allow the minimum connection time when you change trains). If you buy your tickets as one transaction from a split ticket retailer they will take care of this for you; if you come up with your own split ticket combination then you need to make sure your connections are valid.

 

[Hedge Fund]

Thank you, that it really helpful.

I do always buy my tickets as split tickets and in advance, but it’s good to know I can get the next train if delayed so much that I miss my connection.

Thanks again

 

[Watershed]

One minor caveat - that probably won't be relevant most of the time, but which is still useful to know about.

Many Advance tickets are restricted to one operator only, e.g. "Northern only". This means that in the event of disruption, you are limited to taking the next available Northern service, for example. If there's an earlier alternative service operated by a different company, you wouldn't be allowed to use it. Of course enforcing this is nonsensical - but we have seen people penalised for trying to do the 'right' thing by minimising their delay (and thus the industry's Delay Repay liability).

If your Advance ticket covers multiple operators then it would usually be something like "Avanti & connections" - the "& connections" part then means it's once again valid on any operator (provided there is at least one Avanti leg in the journey). Split tickets may mean you're more likely to end up with "TOC only" rather than "TOC & connections" tickets.

 

[Bletchleyite]

One minor caveat - that probably won't be relevant most of the time, but which is still useful to know about.

Many Advance tickets are restricted to one operator only, e.g. "Northern only". This means that in the event of disruption, you are limited to taking the next available Northern service, for example. If there's an earlier alternative service operated by a different company, you wouldn't be allowed to use it. Of course enforcing this is nonsensical - but we have seen people penalised for trying to do the 'right' thing by minimising their delay (and thus the industry's Delay Repay liability).

If your Advance ticket covers multiple operators then it would usually be something like "Avanti & connections" - the "& connections" part then means it's once again valid on any operator (provided there is at least one Avanti leg in the journey). Split tickets may mean you're more likely to end up with "TOC only" rather than "TOC & connections" tickets.

But note that the DfT TOCs (Northern, LNER, TPE and Southeastern) are considered one TOC for this purpose in disruption only (i.e. you can't just, when not disrupted, choose to use a Northern Only ticket on TPE). No doubt as others are nationalised they will be added in, though I've seen nothing explicit to suggest that Greater Anglia has been added yet it may well have been.

There is sadly a not unreasonable chance that staff on the ground won't respect this, though.

 

[OhNoAPacer]

Is there a danger that the OP might encounter someone on the Victoria gateline arguing that their Avanti journey finishes at Euston and that there is therefore a gap in their journey between Euston and Victoria?

 

[Watershed]

Is there a danger that the OP might encounter someone on the Victoria gateline arguing that their Avanti journey finishes at Euston and that there is therefore a gap in their journey between Euston and Victoria?

If they buy separate tickets to Euston and from Victoria, yes. This is why it's advisable to have a pre-purchased ticket covering the cross-London transfer (e.g.. one of them being to Underground Zone 1 if splitting at London).

 

[Hedge Fund]

If they buy separate tickets to Euston and from Victoria, yes. This is why it's advisable to have a pre-purchased ticket covering the cross-London transfer (e.g.. one of them being to Underground Zone 1 if splitting at London).

Unfortunately I cannot do that.

If I try to buy an ‘end to end’ ticket, via Trainline or elsewhere, the price comes out as inexplicably more expensive compared to buying the 3 identical journeys separately. Usually about £40-50 more. Unless I’m doing something wrong.

Plus, and end to end ticket is not available in digital form.

 

[Watershed]

Unfortunately I cannot do that.

If I try to buy an ‘end to end’ ticket, via Trainline or elsewhere, the price comes out as inexplicably more expensive compared to buying the 3 identical journeys separately. Usually about £40-50 more. Unless I’m doing something wrong.

Have you tried TrainSplit and Railsmartr? They are two split ticketing retailers that may be able to find you a better split than Trainline's fairly basic algorithm.

It generally doesn't add much to the cost if you buy one of your Advances to or from London Underground Zone 1. The additional cost is usually around the same as you'll pay on contactless or Oyster; sometimes even less if you're travelling at peak times and have a Railcard.

That would provide you with clear protection in the event of disruption, whereas with split tickets not covering the cross-London journey, the argument could be made that you are making separate journeys to & from London.

Plus, and end to end ticket is not available in digital form.

Unfortunately there isn't really a workaround for this. Tickets with Underground validity generally aren't available as eTickets because TfL don't have barcode scanners at most of their barriers.

 

[yorkie]

Is there a danger that the OP might encounter someone on the Victoria gateline arguing that their Avanti journey finishes at Euston and that there is therefore a gap in their journey between Euston and Victoria?

My strong advice is to obtain a through itinerary, through a website such as the forum's ticketing site....

Unfortunately I cannot do that.

If I try to buy an ‘end to end’ ticket, via Trainline or elsewhere, the price comes out as inexplicably more expensive compared to buying the 3 identical journeys separately. Usually about £40-50 more. Unless I’m doing something wrong.

Plus, and end to end ticket is not available in digital form.

... go to advanced options, and tick the option to exclude cross-London transfers, and you will be able to get e-tickets and a through itinerary for the whole journey*

(* Subject to e-tickets being available for the relevant legs, and also subject to the combination being cheaper than the through fare).

Having a through itinerary is not essential, however it can avoid potential arguments; furthermore, there is a good possibility that Trainsplit themselves may assist in the event of any dispute, and I would be willing to help personally too, if I possibly could.