A query about an advance purchase ticket, combined with a Saveaway ticket

[jednick]

This is just a thought experiment...

I'm just curious. What would happen if...

I buy an advance purchase ticket from Birmingham to Liverpool Lime Street. Also, I buy a Merseyrail Saveaway ticket, valid for that day.

On the journey, I decide it would be better for me to alight at Mossley Hill, but I know the advance purchase ticket will not allow it and I have to stay on until Lime Street. However, I also have the Saveaway ticket. What happens if I alight at Mossley Hill anyway?

I have a valid ticket every step of the way. My advance ticket Birmingham to Lime Street is definitely valid at the point the train stops at Mossley Hill. The second I step onto the platform at Mossley Hill, I hold a valid ticket, the Saveaway.

I would be really interested to know your thoughts about this please.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I assume you mean a Saveaway, as a Daysaver is valid only on the third-rail electric services and those don't serve Mossley Hill.

You will have breached the terms of your Advance ticket, but in practice (like many such things) it is very unlikely anything would happen unless RPIs were about and being extraordinarily picky.

 

[jednick]

I assume you mean a Saveaway, as a Daysaver is valid only on the third-rail electric services and those don't serve Mossley Hill.

You will have breached the terms of your Advance ticket, but in practice (like many such things) it is very unlikely anything would happen unless RPIs were about and being extraordinarily picky.

Thanks, edited to Saveaway.

 

[Bletchleyite]

It should be noted that if RPIs were present and did decide to be picky, the sanction would be to charge you the difference between the Advance fare held and the cheapest walk-up fare that would allow the break of journey.

 

[Djgr]

I assume you mean a Saveaway, as a Daysaver is valid only on the third-rail electric services and those don't serve Mossley Hill.

You will have breached the terms of your Advance ticket, but in practice (like many such things) it is very unlikely anything would happen unless RPIs were about and being extraordinarily picky.

I would say 99.99% chance of success, although not strictly allowed. More of a challenge might be to get hold of a Saveaway prior to your arrival at Mossley Hill.

 

[JBuchananGB]

Be sure to buy your SaveAway before you get on the train at Birmingham. I'm not aware of any online method to buy the SaveAway, but ticket offices should sell you one, and you can get them from Northern TVMs, but I doubt if there any of those in Birmingham. Maybe some other TVMs sell them, they would be in the Rovers and Rangers section.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I would say 99.99% chance of success, although not strictly allowed.

TBH there's probably a 99.99% chance of succeeding at ending the Advance short there regardless of what other ticket is held. It's not a busy station and it's not gated, and it's presumably not being done to avoid a higher fare?

 

[jednick]

I would say 99.99% chance of success, although not strictly allowed. More of a challenge might be to get hold of a Saveaway prior to your arrival at Mossley Hill.

In this scenario I would have bought it from a Merseyrail travel shop in person, a few weeks before.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 20 Oct 2025 ==

TBH there's probably a 99.99% chance of succeeding at ending the Advance short there regardless of what other ticket is held. It's not a busy station and it's not gated, and it's presumably not being done to avoid a higher fare?

In this snenario, it would be not to avoid a higher fare. The advance ticket to either Lime Street or Mossley Hill is the same price.

I was thinking in this snenario I had maybe had naturally chosen Lime Street as the destination...then during the actual journey itself, I realise Mossley Hill is a better place to get off (to get to where I want to be).

 

[Tetchytyke]

Not strictly allowed- you should go into Liverpool and then back out- but in reality nobody would detect it.

 

[Djgr]

In this scenario I would have bought it from a Merseyrail travel shop in person, a few weeks before.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 20 Oct 2025 ==

As far as I am aware you can only buy a Saveaway for the day of purchase or for the following day. Presumably you mean Merseytravel Centres?

 

[Bletchleyite]

I was thinking in this snenario I had maybe had naturally chosen Lime Street as the destination...then during the actual journey itself, I realise Mossley Hill is a better place to get off (to get to where I want to be).

Just get off. The chance of a problem is small.

I wouldn't do it at South Parkway as that is gated and the staff might say something, but the chance of you being pulled up for it at Mossley Hill is very, very small.

The suggestion used to be to purchase a Lime St-Mossley Hill single and use that to exit (as then you've paid the same as you would if you went to Lime St as you were meant to, just not wasted your time actually doing so), but these days that's more likely to be picked up as short faring and result in problems of its own so is no longer sensible advice, at least to me.

 

[jednick]

As far as I am aware you can only buy a Saveaway for the day of purchase or for the following day. Presumably you mean Merseytravel Centres?

Yes.....or for the purpose of this scenario - a friend buys one the day before, and gives it to me in Birmingham, before I depart.

 

[Djgr]

Just get off. The chance of a problem is small.

I wouldn't do it at South Parkway as that is gated and the staff might say something, but the chance of you being pulled up for it at Mossley Hill is very, very small.

The suggestion used to be to purchase a Lime St-Mossley Hill single and use that to exit (as then you've paid the same as you would if you went to Lime St as you were meant to, just not wasted your time actually doing so), but these days that's more likely to be picked up as short faring and result in problems of its own so is no longer sensible advice, at least to me.

Yes Liverpool South Parkway is 99.9% gated in my experience.

 

[jednick]

Just get off. The chance of a problem is small.

I wouldn't do it at South Parkway as that is gated and the staff might say something, but the chance of you being pulled up for it at Mossley Hill is very, very small.

If at South Parkway, providing the Saveaway ticket is valid at that time of day, wouldn't the ticket machine just assume I boarded elsewhere, eg Hunts Cross? From the machine's viewpoint I would be inserting a valid ticket.

 

[Bletchleyite]

If at South Parkway, providing the Saveaway ticket is valid at that time of day, wouldn't the ticket machine just assume I boarded elsewhere, eg Hunts Cross? From the machine's viewpoint I would be inserting a valid ticket.

It should open the gates, yes, though if it didn't you might have an awkward conversation. I was referring to where you just end short without another ticket.

 

[jednick]

Just get off. The chance of a problem is small.

I wouldn't do it at South Parkway as that is gated and the staff might say something, but the chance of you being pulled up for it at Mossley Hill is very, very small.

The suggestion used to be to purchase a Lime St-Mossley Hill single and use that to exit (as then you've paid the same as you would if you went to Lime St as you were meant to, just not wasted your time actually doing so), but these days that's more likely to be picked up as short faring and result in problems of its own so is no longer sensible advice, at least to me.

But either way, I have a valid ticket, every point along the way, don't I? The second I invalidate my advance ticket by alighting at Mossley Hill, I am in posession of a valid ticket, the Saveaway, providing it is the correct time of day.

 

[Bletchleyite]

But either way, I have a valid ticket, every point along the way, don't I? The second I invalidate my advance ticket by alighting at Mossley Hill, I am in posession of a valid ticket, the Saveaway, providing it is the correct time of day.

No. You have, at that point, made a journey with an invalid ticket - the Advance ended short. Holding the other ticket does not absolve you of that, though it might make it hard to detect. That can still be dealt with (by excessing to the cheapest walk up fare allowing ending short).

It's not about simply having a valid ticket at the point of being checked, because if it was short-faring would be legal as long as you weren't checked in the bit where you didn't have a valid ticket. It's about being able to present, at any point during a journey, a full set of valid tickets for its entirety.

Generally, it's probably best avoiding doing stuff that looks dishonest as that is more likely to raise suspicions.

 

[AlterEgo]

But either way, I have a valid ticket, every point along the way, don't I? The second I invalidate my advance ticket by alighting at Mossley Hill, I am in posession of a valid ticket, the Saveaway, providing it is the correct time of day.

Irrelevant, the excess can still be charged on the Advance because of your illegitimate use of it regardless of whether you have any other tickets on you.

 

[Tetchytyke]

Irrelevant, the excess can still be charged on the Advance because of your illegitimate use of it regardless of whether you have any other tickets on you.

Although the railway will not typically do so where there is no attempt to pay less than you should. In this case I wouldn’t expect am excess to be charged.

But it depends how technical we are being. The only completely compliant method is to travel to Lime Street then get the first train back to Mossley Hill. Anything else carries a risk. But in this case I would say the risk is minuscule.

 

[JBuchananGB]

for the purpose of this scenario - a friend buys one the day before, and gives it to me in Birmingham, before I depart.

MerseyTravel Centre or MerseyRail stations will only issue SaveAways onto Metro cards. Your friend will have to cough up £1 to get a card for you, or go to a Northern TVM at Lime Street, or a non-MerseyRail ticket office if you want him to get you a paper SaveAway.

 

[redreni]

TBH there's probably a 99.99% chance of succeeding at ending the Advance short there regardless of what other ticket is held. It's not a busy station and it's not gated, and it's presumably not being done to avoid a higher fare?

The key here is, surely, to give a plausible reason for ending short that isn't "because it's cheaper" or similar (e.g. "there weren't any Advances to Mossley Hill"). How on earth staff are supposed to read passengers' minds to establish their motivation, I don't know?

Although I am aware many veteran frontline railway staff are able to form a view of which passengers are honest and which aren't, and have a very high degree of confidence in their ability to do so with unerring accuracy, there's no doubt in my mind that if you mystery shopped this using 50 or so volunteers all doing the same thing stopping short on an Advance and giving the same excuse, and all doing so for the same reason (because they'd been put up to it as part of the study), you'd find exactly the same evidence of (presumably) unconscious bias along racial and religious lines that permeates almost every exercise of power and discretion that is ever studied (up to and including the judiciary). That said, attitude is also very important if aiming to benefit from a favourable exercise of discretion - how you say it as much as what you say, and all that.

If Advances are generally available to Mossley Hill at the same price as to Lime St, it would be best in future, if possible, to consider before buying the ticket which station is better to get off at and buy the appropriate ticket accordingly. But if the ticket is already held, as others have mentioned, it seems unlikely anybody is going to notice or mind.

 

[Bletchleyite]

One thing that would be interesting would be to know whether any tickets to Lime St open the gates at South Parkway. They may well do. Sometimes

The key here is, surely, to give a plausible reason for ending short that isn't "because it's cheaper" or similar (e.g. "there weren't any Advances to Mossley Hill"). How on earth staff are supposed to read passengers' minds to establish their motivation, I don't know?

"Because I was going to get the bus from town but it's easier to get off here and get a taxi"?

TBH it is rather a pain that you can't change the origin/destination of an Advance, otherwise the sensible thing would just be to change it to Mossley Hill. The railway doesn't make life easy here sometimes.

If Advances are generally available to Mossley Hill at the same price as to Lime St, it would be best in future, if possible, to consider before buying the ticket which station is better to get off at and buy the appropriate ticket accordingly. But if the ticket is already held, as others have mentioned, it seems unlikely anybody is going to notice or mind.

Or if in doubt buy the *shorter* ticket and extend it with a walk up if wanting to go to Lime St (I think all the WMT services stop at Mossley Hill?)

 

[trainophile]

One thing that would be interesting would be to know whether any tickets to Lime St open the gates at South Parkway. They may well do. Sometimes


"Because I was going to get the bus from town but it's easier to get off here and get a taxi"?

TBH it is rather a pain that you can't change the origin/destination of an Advance, otherwise the sensible thing would just be to change it to Mossley Hill. The railway doesn't make life easy here sometimes.



Or if in doubt buy the *shorter* ticket and extend it with a walk up if wanting to go to Lime St (I think all the WMT services stop at Mossley Hill?)

I regularly get the LNR **34 BHM-LIV and the **33 LIV-BHM, neither of which stop at Mossley Hill. It seems to be the alternate ones that do stop there. Unless it's been added in as a stop in the last few weeks?