Rail Staff Knowledge of Station Locations

[Greenback]

But surely that goes both ways.
The RPI launched straight in with saying the passenger was wrong and he would have to pay extra. Had the RPI also done what you suggest, then the conversation probably would have been of a lighter tone. The RPI could have just as easily made a similar joke if he had wanted to keep it friendly.
If I was accused of fare evasion totally out of the blue, and with no good grounds for it, I think I would be a little annoyed too.
I accept people make mistakes, but if you do, and it affects someone else (as in this case), then own up to it being your mistake. Don't try to shift the blame onto the other person (as he was doing by saying he would be "watching" the guy).

Please see post #29!

PS Even if this is an accurate transcript, then there is no mention of fare evasion anywhere.

 

[RJ]

Please see post #29!

PS Even if this is an accurate transcript, then there is no mention of fare evasion anywhere.

I think it's a case of an obsessive enthusiast sticking their snorter in where it's not needed/wanted. Voluntarily berating an RPI then proudly relaying it on a forum is hardly an act of heroism.

RPIs are humans (suceptible to error) doing a job - not the gormless antagonists that people seem to label them as.

 

[WelshBluebird]

Please see post #29!

PS Even if this is an accurate transcript, then there is no mention of fare evasion anywhere.

Granted, I am assuming the transcript is roughly accurate, but I have seen it before. People diving straight in, being rude and nasty to someone only to then be corrected, and then have the cheek to suggest the person is still wrong! And it does seem to happen a bit on the railways, where staff do not like being proven wrong. As I have said, and will continue saying, the vast majority of staff are brilliant. But a minority are not. I personally do not understand the idea of defending those who do fall short. Even if you are railway staff. If anything I would think you would be harsher because these are the people who make your profession look bad.

And fare evasion was the wrong phrase. But the idea still applies. If I was told my ticket was not valid and I knew it was, and was told that i would have to pay more, I would be annoyed. Especially if the person takes a similar attitude (straight out saying I am wrong without explaining his point of view first). And being told that I would be "watched" would only further antagonise me.

Surely you can see how bad that is? Not accepting you are wrong so suggesting that person is at fault?

On a further note, I think you may be getting the wrong impression of me based on my recent comments! I am not anti staff. I will say again the vast majority of staff are brilliant, and I know I certainly could not do the job. But as a passenger, I will see things from the passengers point of view, and I personally think the attitudes of a minority who work on the railways is disgusting (I will emphasis again, a minority of staff). Infact, the minority is so small it is sad that it even comes up in conversation tbh. But people will always remember and make a bigger point of bad experiences than good ones. (personally I do try to make a point of good experiences, and there have been a couple of times in the last few months where railway staff have made my life a great deal easier, and I made an effort to thank those who helped).

I think it's a case of an obsessive enthusiast sticking their snorter in where it's not needed/wanted. Voluntarily berating an RPI then proudly relaying it on a forum is hardly an act of heroism.

RPIs are humans (suceptible to error) doing a job - not the gormless antagonists that people seem to label them as.

Sorry I can't agree. I would have probably done the same thing. Many people who travel by rail do not really understand that sometime staff are wrong, and take the word of a staff member. So if a member of staff says they need to pay more, they probably would. Even if they should not have to.
And yes they are susceptible to error, as everyone is. But at least own up to it, rather than trying to pin the blame on the person (I'll be watching you).

 

[tony_mac]

Sorry I can't agree. I would have probably done the same thing.

It isn't what was done that was the problem, but the manner of it.

The way it was reported was just rude.

So he made a mistake, we all do, there was no need for discourtesy and I am not surprised it annoyed the RPI.

I would be annoyed if I made an innocent mistake and a guard spoke to me like that, why should it be acceptable the other way round?

I have always found that a polite explanation of any possible misunderstanding works much better than being rude and arrogant. (Although some people will invite you to progress to rude and arrogant, it's not a good place to start!).

But at least own up to it, rather than trying to pin the blame on the person (I'll be watching you).

Yes, that's a bugbear of mine too - but it's human nature, and people do get defensive particularly when they are being attacked.

 

[Greenback]

Granted, I am assuming the transcript is roughly accurate, but I have seen it before. People diving straight in, being rude and nasty to someone only to then be corrected, and then have the cheek to suggest the person is still wrong! And it does seem to happen a bit on the railways, where staff do not like being proven wrong. As I have said, and will continue saying, the vast majority of staff are brilliant. But a minority are not. I personally do not understand the idea of defending those who do fall short. Even if you are railway staff. If anything I would think you would be harsher because these are the people who make your profession look bad.

And fare evasion was the wrong phrase. But the idea still applies. If I was told my ticket was not valid and I knew it was, and was told that i would have to pay more, I would be annoyed. Especially if the person takes a similar attitude (straight out saying I am wrong without explaining his point of view first). And being told that I would be "watched" would only further antagonise me.

Surely you can see how bad that is? Not accepting you are wrong so suggesting that person is at fault?

On a further note, I think you may be getting the wrong impression of me based on my recent comments! I am not anti staff. I will say again the vast majority of staff are brilliant, and I know I certainly could not do the job. But as a passenger, I will see things from the passengers point of view, and I personally think the attitudes of a minority who work on the railways is disgusting (I will emphasis again, a minority of staff). Infact, the minority is so small it is sad that it even comes up in conversation tbh. But people will always remember and make a bigger point of bad experiences than good ones. (personally I do try to make a point of good experiences, and there have been a couple of times in the last few months where railway staff have made my life a great deal easier, and I made an effort to thank those who helped).

Sorry I can't agree. I would have probably done the same thing. Many people who travel by rail do not really understand that sometime staff are wrong, and take the word of a staff member. So if a member of staff says they need to pay more, they probably would. Even if they should not have to.
And yes they are susceptible to error, as everyone is. But at least own up to it, rather than trying to pin the blame on the person (I'll be watching you).

Yes, sometimes staff are wrong. Sometimes they make silly mistakes like confusing Clapton with Clapham.

What we have here though is a description of a conversation that may never have happened at all, may have occurred with completely different wording or may have happened exactly as written. Only those who were there will know what actually happened.

If the staff member did make an embarrassing error in confusing two stations with similar sounding names, then it could well have been easily resolved without the interjection of a third party. At worst it could have been resolved through the TOC concerned by the traveller themselves.

We could spend all day talking about semantics and who said what, when and in what context, but that ultimately achieves nothing, since it is all supposition and assumption.

I am not on any side. I try and look at everything from all perspectives. I can't argue with anything you say about staff with poor attitudes, but mistakenly informing someone they are off route and attempting to issue a PF is neither rude or disgusting. It's just something that occasionally happens!

 

[RJ]

Granted, I am assuming the transcript is roughly accurate, but I have seen it before. People diving straight in, being rude and nasty to someone only to then be corrected, and then have the cheek to suggest the person is still wrong! And it does seem to happen a bit on the railways, where staff do not like being proven wrong. As I have said, and will continue saying, the vast majority of staff are brilliant. But a minority are not. I personally do not understand the idea of defending those who do fall short. Even if you are railway staff. If anything I would think you would be harsher because these are the people who make your profession look bad.

And fare evasion was the wrong phrase. But the idea still applies. If I was told my ticket was not valid and I knew it was, and was told that i would have to pay more, I would be annoyed. Especially if the person takes a similar attitude (straight out saying I am wrong without explaining his point of view first). And being told that I would be "watched" would only further antagonise me.

Surely you can see how bad that is? Not accepting you are wrong so suggesting that person is at fault?

On a further note, I think you may be getting the wrong impression of me based on my recent comments! I am not anti staff. I will say again the vast majority of staff are brilliant, and I know I certainly could not do the job. But as a passenger, I will see things from the passengers point of view, and I personally think the attitudes of a minority who work on the railways is disgusting (I will emphasis again, a minority of staff). Infact, the minority is so small it is sad that it even comes up in conversation tbh. But people will always remember and make a bigger point of bad experiences than good ones. (personally I do try to make a point of good experiences, and there have been a couple of times in the last few months where railway staff have made my life a great deal easier, and I made an effort to thank those who helped).




Sorry I can't agree. I would have probably done the same thing. Many people who travel by rail do not really understand that sometime staff are wrong, and take the word of a staff member. So if a member of staff says they need to pay more, they probably would. Even if they should not have to.
And yes they are susceptible to error, as everyone is. But at least own up to it, rather than trying to pin the blame on the person (I'll be watching you).

Like I said, you can deliver a message with diplomacy, or you can delivery that same message in a snotty, knowitall manner. If you say you'd do the same, then you're just making yourself look bad.

I didn't once condone, justify or express any opinion on the RPI's behaviour.

 

[sheff1]

The geography of some staff is utterly appalling. I worked in the ticket office for a while and took a huge interest (I still do), and if I came across a place that I hadn't heard of, or didn't know how to get there, I'd look up the route planner, not merely sell the ticket. Doing that wasn't just for the passengers' benefit, but for my own, too.

A few years ago now I asked for a ticket to Cherry Tree from one of the few knowledgable staff at Sheffield (now retired). He was absolutely thrilled and said I had made his day as he had always wanted to issue a ticket to Cherry Tree but had never been asked before

 

[Mark_re]

A few years ago now I asked for a ticket to Cherry Tree from one of the few knowledgable staff at Sheffield (now retired). He was absolutely thrilled and said I had made his day as he had always wanted to issue a ticket to Cherry Tree but had never been asked before

I asked for a return to Lawrence Hill from Winchester recently. Similar glee from the ticket office. 'In 17 years, I've never sold a ticket to there. You've made my day.'

 

[Keith Jarrett]

With reference to those who criticised my apparent lack of diplomacy, the incident happened somewhile ago and I cannot remember the exact words used in the exchange, hence the words "the conversation went something like this".

The point that I was trying to get across is that FCC RPIs generally appear go about their work with the arrogant attitude of being always right but as we know from other posts on this forum, they can be proved wrong even on the most basic of matters. And as for "sticking their snorter in", presumably I should have let the RPI continue with his false allegations on ticket validity given that he had no idea where Clapton was.

On a lighter note, I was once travelling with a friend who was in possession of a ticket from Four Oaks to Three Oaks. Guard, as they were in those days, comes through checking tickets on the way into Euston and asks my friend whether he woukld be passing through Sevenoaks on his journey (Get it? Three Oaks plus Four Oaks = Sevenoaks). The rest of the journey was taken up with Guard, friend and I having a conversation about the oddest tickets that the Guard had ever encounterd.

 

[PaulLothian]

You do not need wildly out of area tickets to confuse as I will relate ...
Me (to RPI) - Do you know where Clapton is?
RPI - Yes, 1st stop after Victoria!
Me - Sorry, I will think that you will find Clapton is in NE London. You are thinking of Clapham Junction. And, for reference, Clapham is a small station in North Yorkshire.
RPI - Don't be cheeky. I know how to do my job.
Guy - So is my ticket OK or not?
RPI - I will be watching you [And storms off in a huff]...

I think the point that this interaction went seriously wrong, whatever the exact words, was "And, for reference, Clapham is a small station in North Yorkshire." Up to then, the intervention could have been seen as sorting out a misunderstanding; after that it would be more likely interpreted as suggesting ignorance!

None of which makes the RPI's behaviour right...

 

[4SRKT]

Those of us in the know should always help normals when they are being given duff information by railway employees. Not that this happens often, but when it does it is only right that we step in, as the consequences of being given bad information can be serious down the line, as the presumption will usually be that a passenger with the wrong ticket or train is on the fiddle.

Not entirely the same, but my favourite instance of poor advice by staff came a few years ago at Bradford Interchange where there was a signal failure and no trains were going towards Leeds for the foreseeable future. The irritated passengers were asking the booking office staff what they should do, and they advice being given was (accompanied by a shrug) to go over to the bus part of the Interchange and enquire there what the best option was. I stepped up and in a rather annoyed voice informed the crowd that if they walked 5 minutes to Forster Square they would find a half-houlry service of swish modern EMUs waiting to whisk them to Leeds in a similar time to the route from Interchange. How could I *not* come across as annoyed in such a situation?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I think the point that this interaction went seriously wrong, whatever the exact words, was "And, for reference, Clapham is a small station in North Yorkshire." Up to then, the intervention could have been seen as sorting out a misunderstanding; after that it would be more likely interpreted as suggesting ignorance!

None of which makes the RPI's behaviour right...

What is wrong with suggesting ignorance when someone is clearly ignorant, and arrogant to boot? I really, really hate stupid people: there is simply no need for anyone to be stupid in a country that gives every citizen 14 years of free education, and if a stupid person wrongly tries to impede my legitimate business because he is stupid, I have no qualms about making him feel stupid.

 

[PaulLothian]

Those of us in the know should always help normals when they are being given duff information by railway employees....

What is wrong with suggesting ignorance when someone is clearly ignorant, and arrogant to boot? I really, really hate stupid people: there is simply no need for anyone to be stupid in a country that gives every citizen 14 years of free education, and if a stupid person wrongly tries to impede my legitimate business because he is stupid, I have no qualms about making him feel stupid.

My underlying point was that people almost never do change their behaviour or learn new skills because of being humiliated, which is the likely outcome of the strategy you outline! Many people have been failed by the education system by being alienated from learning by teachers who were sarcastic about their endeavours.

It really comes down to a choice between encouraging increased knowledge and competence (and hopefully a better attitude in the future) or entrenching existing poor attitudes and practice. I know which I'd prefer.

 

[tony_mac]

there is simply no need for anyone to be stupid in a country that gives every citizen 14 years of free education, and if a stupid person wrongly tries to impede my legitimate business because he is stupid, I have no qualms about making him feel stupid.

It's a shame they don't spend a little more of that time teaching manners or tolerance, you seemed to have missed those lessons! (although I think there is a certain amount of bluster...)

Everybody makes mistakes and we are all largely ignorant of many things; I don't think that's any reason to be abusive.

 

[Greenback]

It's a shame they don't spend a little more of that time teaching manners or tolerance, you seemed to have missed those lessons! (although I think there is a certain amount of bluster...)

Everybody makes mistakes and we are all largely ignorant of many things; I don't think that's any reason to be abusive.

Agreed. Making a maistke does not necessarily mean ignorance, and ignorance should not lead to abuse or humiliation!

 

[spacehopper]

Think its a reflection on society these days that people are becoming more parochial. With foreign holidays and mass car ownership peoples knowledge of this country mostly extends to a trip to Blackpool or Manchester Airport and the M1 or M6.

You'd be surprised how ignorant people are even of their local areas. Using sat nav simply to get to the other side of town for example. With large numbers of staff coming in off the street, some who haven't even been on a train before they got the job! Railway knowledge is getting less and less.

Having been brought up using public transport and with many regular train trips when I was younger, I already had a good railway knowledge when I started. On my rest days sometimes I'll just go for a ride out on a line I've never travelled on (do it lot more if I had decent travel perks!).

90% of tickets you see are local destinations under 50 miles. Rest will be the "once a year" brigade traveling to visit Aunty Bridget in Great Yarmouth. Even then most of these tickets will be a cheap advance purchase apex type.

I've sold the odd "Gillingham" ticket and ask do you want the one in Kent or Dorset.

Even I would struggle with say suburban stations in Strathclyde- I'd never heard of Crossmyloof or Drumfrochar, try saying that in a weegie accent too fast! What about Welsh stations too many A, W, Y, L, H no way I would get correct spelling so would have to ask boyo to spell it out for me. Then towns with more than one stations, how many staff on ScotRail would know that Acton Mainline is on GWML and Acton Central on NLL.

You have the odd punter that doesn't even give you correct station name. I remember once one of these car delivery men asking for a ticket to "Deans". Typed it in nothing came up- "do you mean Dean?"- "No DeanS!". Not in the machine just Dean, Dean Lane, Deansgate. It turned out he wanted Livingston North- which is located in Deans part of town!

 

[Greenback]

I have a good knowledge of geography, mainly because of my love of maps and titmetables, and due to my postal experience. But I don't know some of the stations mentioned from time to time on these threads - mostly those in metropolitan areas with names linked to anything with a postal or geographicla connection, like Dingle Road (though I do know where that is!).

I think technology makes it so much easier that we tend to think less. When I started on the railway you still had to look soem things up in a traditional timetable or paper manual. Being able to do an electronic search is much quicker in most cases, but the brain doesn;t seem to absorb and retain the information so easily.

 

[Track Basher]

Many years ago I went to the ticket office (when it was still open) at Pembroke Dock and asked for a single to Bare Lane. The clerk said he had never sold a ticket the there in 30 years and where was it.

My favourite one but have never bought Ware to Cwmbach.

 

[bb21]

I think the point that this interaction went seriously wrong, whatever the exact words, was "And, for reference, Clapham is a small station in North Yorkshire." Up to then, the intervention could have been seen as sorting out a misunderstanding; after that it would be more likely interpreted as suggesting ignorance!

Yes I agree. There is no need to mention Clapham as it is irrelevant to the situation and only serves to show how knowledgeable one is in order to belittle the RPI.

The point that I was trying to get across is that FCC RPIs generally appear go about their work with the arrogant attitude of being always right

I think a better term would be "a significant minority". We do get to hear about them a lot on this forum, however that in no way constitutes "generally".

What we have here though is a description of a conversation that may never have happened at all, may have occurred with completely different wording or may have happened exactly as written. Only those who were there will know what actually happened.

I agree with this. What we do not know is the manner in which the words were spoken at the time. Was the RPI rude to the passenger to start with? Was the conversation proceeding calmly before the third person rudely interrupted? Or else?

Those of us in the know should always help normals when they are being given duff information by railway employees. Not that this happens often, but when it does it is only right that we step in, as the consequences of being given bad information can be serious down the line, as the presumption will usually be that a passenger with the wrong ticket or train is on the fiddle.

Yes I agree, under certain circumstances.

Not entirely the same, but my favourite instance of poor advice by staff came a few years ago at Bradford Interchange where there was a signal failure and no trains were going towards Leeds for the foreseeable future. The irritated passengers were asking the booking office staff what they should do, and they advice being given was (accompanied by a shrug) to go over to the bus part of the Interchange and enquire there what the best option was. I stepped up and in a rather annoyed voice informed the crowd that if they walked 5 minutes to Forster Square they would find a half-houlry service of swish modern EMUs waiting to whisk them to Leeds in a similar time to the route from Interchange. How could I *not* come across as annoyed in such a situation?

I assume that you have already been advised that it is permitted to go that way? I know that in the majority of cases it doesn't really matter. However if there are people with tickets to places such as New Pudsey then they could get into problems if prior arrangements have not been made. I agree that the information given by ticket office staff was clearly inappropriate, nevertheless there might be work going on behind closed doors to arrange for replacement transport or other alternative plans.

 

[Mintona]

I impress myself sometimes. I see a ticket to somewhere in the north or Scotland (for example Irlam) and think "aha, I know where that is!" I then impress the passenger by asking if they are alright with getting to (for example) Euston for the Manchester train. And then impress them even more by telling them they will need platform 14 at Manchester Piccadilly.

I don't think many of my colleagues could do it, although some definitely could.

I do like to think of myself as quite knowledgeable though, and it can be dead useful if someone asks you a question and you don't need to look it up on Avantix to find the answer.

 

[yorkie]

Mintona - that is good. The best I have encountered is a legendary XC guard who works the Newcastle-Birmingham route, who will advise passengers of which station to change and which platform it is (e.g. a passenger to Bentley S Yorks on a Voyager out of York is advised to change at Wakefield Westgate, as it's a same platform connection, and is told the time of that train!), the only time I've known him not say any unprompted advice is when you hold a rover/ranger. Unfortunately I have not seen him for years now, but that's probably because I don't have the misfortune to travel on XC very often!

There is someone on this forum with an encyclopaedic knowledge of stations, I was only able to catch him out on the Heart of Wales line. He even knew which branch the Valley lines stations were on! (Any of you attending the Manchester meal can test him! )

 

[Greenback]

I sold a ticket to Llanbedr during my first few weeks in Reading. I impressed everyone else by reeling off the train times without looking them up. It was a cheat though, as I used to live near there and had checked the journey for myself a few days before as I was planning on returning to see a friend!

 

[Greeby]

Having been in it two years now. It is shocking to behold the level of will-full ignorance and intellectual laziness I have witnessed by booking office staff many years my senior in the business. I had a pitiful excuse for training by a TOC that is now trying to eviscerate the ranks of retail staff. They were trained by real railway companies, what's their excuse?

 

[cuccir]

I'm often surprised that some of the stations aren't better named. Is it really a good idea to have stations called 'North Road' and 'University' for example? Why not 'Darlington North Road' and 'Birmingham University'? Those station names seem almost designed to cause confusion!

 

[RJ]

I impress myself sometimes. I see a ticket to somewhere in the north or Scotland (for example Irlam) and think "aha, I know where that is!" I then impress the passenger by asking if they are alright with getting to (for example) Euston for the Manchester train. And then impress them even more by telling them they will need platform 14 at Manchester Piccadilly.

I don't think many of my colleagues could do it, although some definitely could.

I do like to think of myself as quite knowledgeable though, and it can be dead useful if someone asks you a question and you don't need to look it up on Avantix to find the answer.

I know that feeling too - never bother with platform numbers however because there's always the possibility that something might affect the normal working. Some ticket office clerk with too much time on their hands on a Sunday morning printed out a few odd tickets such as;

Three Oaks - Four Oaks route Sevenoaks
Bowling - Bat & Ball
Daisy Hill - Flowery Field
Peartree - Cherry Tree
Borth - Porth
Berry Brow - Cherry Tree
Tywyn - Tygwyn
Broome - Coombe

And some ones with routes like +Not Underground and +Not London which would probably confuse a lot of people.

 

[sheff1]

You have the odd punter that doesn't even give you correct station name. I remember once one of these car delivery men asking for a ticket to "Deans". Typed it in nothing came up- "do you mean Dean?"- "No DeanS!". Not in the machine just Dean, Dean Lane, Deansgate. It turned out he wanted Livingston North- which is located in Deans part of town!

Reminds me of an instance when I was at Birmingham New St in the early seventies. Passenger asks for ticket to Stoke Gifford 'where they have just built a new station'. With SG itself being just a small village at the time, it took a bit of questioning before Bristol Parkway was identified as the destination.

 

[Peter Mugridge]

I know that feeling too - never bother with platform numbers however because there's always the possibility that something might affect the normal working. Some ticket office clerk with too much time on their hands on a Sunday morning printed out a few odd tickets such as;

Three Oaks - Four Oaks route Sevenoaks
Bowling - Bat & Ball
Daisy Hill - Flowery Field
Peartree - Cherry Tree
Borth - Porth
Berry Brow - Cherry Tree
Tywyn - Tygwyn
Broome - Coombe

And some ones with routes like +Not Underground and +Not London which would probably confuse a lot of people.

I'd love to see a ticket for Silly to Ath ( in Belgium - and they're on the same line...!! )

 

[43167]

On sunday, I went to the double event at Didcot & Cholsey. So drove as far as Warwick Parkway for the train forward.

Asked for a Return to Cholsey, bert on counter replied; Chelsea?. No, Cholsey. cue blank look & him asking how do you spell that. C H O L SEY.

 

[RJ]

On sunday, I went to the double event at Didcot & Cholsey. So drove as far as Warwick Parkway for the train forward.

Asked for a Return to Cholsey, bert on counter replied; Chelsea?. No, Cholsey. cue blank look & him asking how do you spell that. C H O L SEY.

That's happened to me before when selling tickets. Not everybody pronounces things correctly/speaks clearly.

 

[Greenback]

That's happened to me before when selling tickets. Not everybody pronounces things correctly/speaks clearly.

Indeed, I remember being asked for a ticket to Kylie, spelt Keighley! Now the correct pronunciation is not known to everyone, so it's not the customers fault. But then it wasn't my fault that I thought they had said Filey either!

We had a laugh about though. A sense of humour goes a long way!

 

[yorkie]

Indeed, I remember being asked for a ticket to Kylie, spelt Keighley! Now the correct pronunciation is not known to everyone, so it's not the customers fault. But then it wasn't my fault that I thought they had said Filey either!

Keighley is pronounced like, Keith Lee! (Must be someone called that!).

People from Keighley say "Wakefield Kirkgate" as "Wakefield Kur-gut" and "Huddersfield" would be "'uddersfield".

Good job there isn't a station at Mousehole!

If there was a station at Cirencester I bet a lot of people would call it Siren-ster, to be in line with Leicester, Bicester etc. At least the Americans would get Cirencester right, while getting all the others wrong.

Ever had anyone ask for a ticket to "Loo-gah-bor-ouh-gah"? or "Loo-gah-bor-ouh-gah Junction"?