CAF class 197 Civity for TfW: News and updates on introduction.

[Rhydgaled]

Bear in mind that in the long term there should be a much fewer 197s working around Cardiff when the 231s go on the routes they're meant to be on.

Where did KeolisAmey plan to maintain the class 170s once the 231s took over the Maesteg, Ebbw Vale and Cheltenham Spa workings? Obviously there are now the active travel 153s taking over some of the planned 170 work, but equally there is more planned work for 197s in the south (though perhaps not Cardiff) than the original plan in that regard.

 

[nwales58]

Is the lathe at Holyhead actually up and running yet?

Opened, in a political sense at least, last Friday 17th October. Read and enjoy.

The new North Wales rail facility aimed at improving train reliability

The £10.5m wheel lathe facility is opening in Holyhead today

www.dailypost.co.uk

 

[craigybagel]

Where did KeolisAmey plan to maintain the class 170s once the 231s took over the Maesteg, Ebbw Vale and Cheltenham Spa workings? Obviously there are now the active travel 153s taking over some of the planned 170 work, but equally there is more planned work for 197s in the south (though perhaps not Cardiff) than the original plan in that regard.

That was never publicly disclosed and there's no immediately obvious answer. It's the same challenges that were faced with their requirements, the 153s.

The 153s have ended up at Crewe, likely because it's the only 24 hour TMD on their network, but to cycle the 170s through there would have meant wasting 3 car sets on HOWL/Crewe Shrewsbury locals, which were only expected to be worked by 2 cars. The only other option vaguely near the proposed 170 network is Canton, but without any expected regular work for the 170s to Cardiff once the 231s were introduced that would logistically be very awkward.

 

[Jez]

That was never publicly disclosed and there's no immediately obvious answer. It's the same challenges that were faced with their requirements, the 153s.

The 153s have ended up at Crewe, likely because it's the only 24 hour TMD on their network, but to cycle the 170s through there would have meant wasting 3 car sets on HOWL/Crewe Shrewsbury locals, which were only expected to be worked by 2 cars. The only other option vaguely near the proposed 170 network is Canton, but without any expected regular work for the 170s to Cardiff once the 231s were introduced that would logistically be very awkward.

Realise this is off topic so will keep this brief. Werent the 170s also going to do Swanline (the new Pembroke Dock/Swanline service) so therefore would have been maintained in Canton.

 

[Caaardiff]

Where did KeolisAmey plan to maintain the class 170s once the 231s took over the Maesteg, Ebbw Vale and Cheltenham Spa workings? Obviously there are now the active travel 153s taking over some of the planned 170 work, but equally there is more planned work for 197s in the south (though perhaps not Cardiff) than the original plan in that regard.

Canton

That was never publicly disclosed and there's no immediately obvious answer. It's the same challenges that were faced with their requirements, the 153s.

The 153s have ended up at Crewe, likely because it's the only 24 hour TMD on their network, but to cycle the 170s through there would have meant wasting 3 car sets on HOWL/Crewe Shrewsbury locals, which were only expected to be worked by 2 cars. The only other option vaguely near the proposed 170 network is Canton, but without any expected regular work for the 170s to Cardiff once the 231s were introduced that would logistically be very awkward.

Crewe ATC are only doing C exams and overnight stabling, with Chrysalis at Landore picking up some slack on the C exams. All other 153 maintenance is still done at Canton.

 

[craigybagel]

Realise this is off topic so will keep this brief. Werent the 170s also going to do Swanline (the new Pembroke Dock/Swanline service) so therefore would have been maintained in Canton.

They were and they weren't. It was a bit of a grey area IIRC.

Crewe ATC are only doing C exams and overnight stabling, with Chrysalis at Landore picking up some slack on the C exams. All other 153 maintenance is still done at Canton.

For now. It'll be interesting to see how much 153 work takes place at Canton if/when Cardiff lose their competence. The only reason they're remaining on Crewe - Shrewsbury local (where there is zero need for an active travel unit) is to facilitate their access to Crewe ATC, by keeping Crewe drivers competent.

 

[Roger B]

They were and they weren't. It was a bit of a grey area IIRC.

For now. It'll be interesting to see how much 153 work takes place at Canton if/when Cardiff lose their competence. The only reason they're remaining on Crewe - Shrewsbury local (where there is zero need for an active travel unit) is to facilitate their access to Crewe ATC, by keeping Crewe drivers competent.

Sorry don't follow - thought Canton was the maintenance depot in Cardiff - or is there another?

 

[craigybagel]

Sorry don't follow - thought Canton was the maintenance depot in Cardiff - or is there another?

Canton is the maintenance depot in Cardiff. For 153s to be maintained there, Cardiff drivers (from either the Mainline or Valleys drivers depot) need to drive them on and off the depot. At the moment this isn't an issue as there's still a little bit of 153 work around Cardiff. When that dries up, Cardiff drivers may not be able to maintain their competence, thus it'll be more complicated to get them onto Canton (essentially, a Crewe or Carmarthen driver would have to drive them on and off, piloted by a Cardiff driver).

I suspect in the longer term Canton will only be used sparingly for the heaviest 153 maintenance, with most work taking place at Landore and Crewe.

 

[Roger B]

Canton is the maintenance depot in Cardiff. For 153s to be maintained there, Cardiff drivers (from either the Mainline or Valleys drivers depot) need to drive them on and off the depot. At the moment this isn't an issue as there's still a little bit of 153 work around Cardiff. When that dries up, Cardiff drivers may not be able to maintain their competence, thus it'll be more complicated to get them onto Canton (essentially, a Crewe or Carmarthen driver would have to drive them on and off, piloted by a Cardiff driver).

I suspect in the longer term Canton will only be used sparingly for the heaviest 153 maintenance, with most work taking place at Landore and Crewe.

Thanks for the explanation - I get it now!

 

[tfw756rider]

The 197s have been in service on the shuttle/local stopping services between Crewe and Shrewsbury, right?

If so (I think they have), can anyone in here tell me when they started on them?

Also, if anyone knows of any news articles about that particular 197 service introduction, could they please let me know?

Thanks in advance either way

 

[Lewisham2221]

The 197s have been in service on the shuttle/local stopping services between Crewe and Shrewsbury, right?

If so (I think they have), can anyone in here tell me when they started on them?

Also, if anyone knows of any news articles about that particular 197 service introduction, could they please let me know?

Thanks in advance either way

Yes, they have.

Aside from early morning/late evening services to/from Cardiff etc that serve all the local stations, I think they were also the booked traction for the Sunday local service for a short time. They have also appeared on a more ad-hoc basis on the other days of the week.

I can't help you with any specific dates though I'm afraid.

 

[tfw756rider]

Yes, they have.

Aside from early morning/late evening services to/from Cardiff etc that serve all the local stations, I think they were also the booked traction for the Sunday local service for a short time. They have also appeared on a more ad-hoc basis on the other days of the week.

I can't help you with any specific dates though I'm afraid.

No worries, thanks for the reply and confirmation/information anyway

 

[Jez]

The 197s have been in service on the shuttle/local stopping services between Crewe and Shrewsbury, right?

If so (I think they have), can anyone in here tell me when they started on them?

Also, if anyone knows of any news articles about that particular 197 service introduction, could they please let me know?

Thanks in advance either way

No idea on exact dates but around Mid 2023 they were on Crewe local to free up other units to operate elsewhere as they hadn't been cleared West of Cardiff at the time but had been cleared on the Marches line and as far as Crewe I think. Once the 197s operated the West Wales to Cardiff/Manchester services I think the Crewe local.reverted to being a 153.

 

[tfw756rider]

No idea on exact dates but around Mid 2023 they were on Crewe local to free up other units to operate elsewhere as they hadn't been cleared West of Cardiff at the time but had been cleared on the Marches line and as far as Crewe I think. Once the 197s operated the West Wales to Cardiff/Manchester services I think the Crewe local.reverted to being a 153.

Many thanks

 

[craigybagel]

They still randomly pop up on the locals from time to time. A nice upgrade for the passengers but an exercise in tedium for the driver - a 197 is a bit overpowered running on 153 timings

 

[Bevan Price]

Last Saturday (18 October), there was a Class 158 on the Crewe/Shrewsbury locals.

 

[wythallpaul]

197028 has Re-activated tonight (21/10) on 1V99. Sandwiched between 197012 & 197019 according to RTT.

Clarification:- 1V99 2224 Chester (CTR) to Cardiff Central (CDF).

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 21 Oct 2025 ==

The 197s have been in service on the shuttle/local stopping services between Crewe and Shrewsbury, right?

If so (I think they have), can anyone in here tell me when they started on them?

Also, if anyone knows of any news articles about that particular 197 service introduction, could they please let me know?

Thanks in advance either way

1st one I had was 197018 on 6th September 2023 - 1019 Shrewsbury to Crewe Local.

 

[Jacob Porrett]

Posting on behalf of a mate.

@Russel

 

[tfw756rider]

They still randomly pop up on the locals from time to time. A nice upgrade for the passengers but an exercise in tedium for the driver - a 197 is a bit overpowered running on 153 timings

1st one I had was 197018 on 6th September 2023 - 1019 Shrewsbury to Crewe Local.

Thanks both!

 

[Richard Scott]

They still randomly pop up on the locals from time to time. A nice upgrade for the passengers but an exercise in tedium for the driver - a 197 is a bit overpowered running on 153 timings

197036 was sat in a southern bay platform Crewe yesterday was that possibly a local to Shrewsbury?

 

[Lewisham2221]

197036 was sat in a southern bay platform Crewe yesterday was that possibly a local to Shrewsbury?

Yes, it was.
3-car 197102 is doing the honours today.

 

[Jez]

I was on a 150 yesterday which was covering for a 197 on one of the Swansea-Cardiff's (not a Swanline). So even though West of Swansea has been bus replacements there was a still a shortage of 197s. The 150 was full and standing from Bridgend. By contrast i had almost a carriage to myself on a 5 car 197 on the return journey. Helped by the fact it was 5 mins behind the GWR.

I noticed a 2 car 197 was in the sidings at Canton yesterday, the side near to the main line rather than the City Line. I could not see the number but wondered if it was the set that was recently at Landore as id heard it had been moved to Canton?

 

[Bikeman78]

I noticed a 2 car 197 was in the sidings at Canton yesterday, the side near to the main line rather than the City Line. I could not see the number but wondered if it was the set that was recently at Landore as id heard it had been moved to Canton?

That is 197021.

 

[Gordonman]

Could be but 197021 is also stopped there.

I saw a report yesterday that only 197003 and 197030 remain stored at Holyhead now.Don't know how accurate the report is though.

So 197028 has re-entered service working 1V99 Chester - Cardiff on Tuesday (197012 197028 197019)

197029 must have moved from Holyhead - Chester in preparation for service if the Holyhead report is correct.

Stored 197039 and 197025 had a run out on Wednesday working 5B42 Crewe South Yard - Chester and return.

There was a 3Q81 Crewe South Yard - Newtown on Friday evening and 3Q84 return on Saturday morning,both workings unallocated but probably 197025 and 197039.

Still no sign of 197040 or 197041 being delivered.

 

[Peter Sarf]

Could be but 197021 is also stopped there.

I saw a report yesterday that only 197003 and 197030 remain stored at Holyhead now.Don't know how accurate the report is though.

So 197028 has re-entered service working 1V99 Chester - Cardiff on Tuesday (197012 197028 197019)

197029 must have moved from Holyhead - Chester in preparation for service if the Holyhead report is correct.

Stored 197039 and 197025 had a run out on Wednesday working 5B42 Crewe South Yard - Chester and return.

There was a 3Q81 Crewe South Yard - Newtown on Friday evening and 3Q84 return on Saturday morning,both workings unallocated but probably 197025 and 197039.

Still no sign of 197040 or 197041 being delivered.

From my records of the ERTMS/ETCS 197s it does seem that only 197003 and 197030 are left at Holyhead. Plus 197029 unless it is about to re-enter service.

If 197039 is running Crewe/Chester (tests ?) what does that mean 197038 is up to ?.
Surely its nearer to service than 039 ?.

 

[tfw756rider]

There was a 3Q81 Crewe South Yard - Newtown on Friday evening and 3Q84 return on Saturday morning,both workings unallocated but probably 197025 and 197039.

You guessed right - there are a couple of photos attached at the bottom of this post (taken by Iwan Foster Leslie, to whom I'm grateful for giving me permission to share them here). They're of:

197025+197039 at Machynlleth on Fri 24/10/25's 3Q81 2130 Crewe South Yard to Machynlleth, which arrived 45E (2344¼ Fri 24/10/25, rather than 0030 Sat 25/10/25):

Realtime Trains | 3Q81 2130 Crewe South Yard to Machynlleth | 24/10/2025

Real-time train running information for 3Q81 2130 departure from Crewe South Yard to Machynlleth on 24/10/2025. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

and then 197039+197025 at Machynlleth on Sat 25/10/25's 3Q82 0048 Machynlleth to Welshpool, which departed 38E (0010, rather than 0048):

Realtime Trains | 3Q82 0048 Machynlleth to Welshpool | 25/10/2025

Real-time train running information for 3Q82 0048 departure from Machynlleth to Welshpool on 25/10/2025. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

====================================================

and then, out-of-range of Machynlleth...

197025+197039 did Sat 25/10/25's 3Q83 0149 Welshpool to Newtown (Powys):

Realtime Trains | 3Q83 0149 Welshpool to Newtown (Powys) | 25/10/2025

Real-time train running information for 3Q83 0149 departure from Welshpool to Newtown (Powys) on 25/10/2025. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

and then 197039+197025 did Sat 25/10/25's 3Q84 0212 Newtown (Powys) to Crewe South Yard:

Realtime Trains | 3Q84 0212 Newtown (Powys) to Crewe South Yard | 25/10/2025

Real-time train running information for 3Q84 0212 departure from Newtown (Powys) to Crewe South Yard on 25/10/2025. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

 

[sd0733]

197029 and 197030 are planned to run to Chester today on https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/service/gb-nr:23686/2025-10-27/detailed. This then leaves 197003 as the only Cambrian set at Holyhead.
I cant see anything showing 029 has recently been to Chester before.

There should be some more runs during daytime next week Monday Thursday to Machynlleth.

 

[tfw756rider]

There should be some more runs during daytime next week Monday Thursday to Machynlleth.

Many thanks for this! Return of the daytime tests ey? I can't find them on Realtime Trains - I'm guessing the schedules haven't gone out yet and you know because of your role?

 

[Gordonman]

197029 and 197030 are planned to run to Chester today on https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/service/gb-nr:23686/2025-10-27/detailed. This then leaves 197003 as the only Cambrian set at Holyhead.
I cant see anything showing 029 has recently been to Chester before.

There should be some more runs during daytime next week Monday Thursday to Machynlleth.

Yes,saw that path earlier.It was booked to run to Chester Middle Yard but terminated at Chester and then moved onto the TMD.
The report I saw earlier from Holyhead was obviously wrong,so apologies for that.
Class 197's not in passenger service today are -
197003 - Holyhead
197004 - Chester
197005 - 3M00 Crewe South Yard - Barton route learner
197011
197013
197014
197015
197021 - Canton
197023 - Crewe
197025 - Crewe South Yard
197028
197029 - 5Z97 Holyhead - Chester
197030 - 5Z97 Holyhead - Chester
197032 - Crewe
197035
197038- Crewe LNWR
197039 - Crewe South Yard
197040 - CAF Newport
197041 - CAF Newport
197045 - Canton
197047 - Crewe Electric?
197050

197103 - 5M98 Chester - Barton for the lathe
197107 - Crewe Electric?
197110 - Chester
197113
197114 - Crewe Electric?
197116 - Crewe Electric?
197124
197126 - Chester

The units without locations were all in service last week with the exception of 197015 which has been OOS for at least 2 - 3 weeks.

 

[sd0733]

Yes,saw that path earlier.It was booked to run to Chester Middle Yard but terminated at Chester and then moved onto the TMD.
The report I saw earlier from Holyhead was obviously wrong,so apologies for that.
Class 197's not in passenger service today are -
197003 - Holyhead
197004 - Chester
197005 - 3M00 Crewe South Yard - Barton route learner
197011 Holyhead since 26/10
197013 Chester since 22/10
197014 Holyhead since 24/10
197015 Shrewsbury since 23/10
197021 - Canton
197023 - Crewe
197025 - Crewe South Yard
197028 Chester since 24/10
197029 - 5Z97 Holyhead - Chester
197030 - 5Z97 Holyhead - Chester
197032 - Crewe
197035 Chester since 25/10
197038- Crewe LNWR
197039 - Crewe South Yard
197040 - CAF Newport
197041 - CAF Newport
197045 - Canton
197047 - Crewe Electric
197050- Crewe ATC since 25/10

197103 - 5M98 Chester - Barton for the lathe
197107 - Crewe Electric
197110 - Chester
197113- Chester since 26/1
197114 - Crewe Electric
197116 - Crewe Electric
197124- In service from 14:26
197126 - Chester

The units without locations were all in service last week with the exception of 197015 which has been OOS for at least 2 - 3 weeks.

Updated with the question marks confirmed and the gaps filled in bold.