Mk1 toilets and signs stating "do not flush in stations"

[satisnek]

I can remember seeing straight down to the track when flushing the loo on a British train many decades ago. Probably the late 60s or 70s. I certainly didn't see it as normal even then but wasn't an aficionado of rolling stock so had no idea of the type of carriage.

You can still see this today on the SVR, certainly on the GWR stock. Just a hole in the floor with a flap operated by the flushing handle!

 

[yorksrob]

Yep! The sidings at Neville Hill depot - and no doubt other depots too - used to have a healthy (?) crop of tomato plants in the four foot from flushing out the HST toilets. A useful (?) by-product of selling BLT sandwiches in the buffet cars!

I'm guessing they weren't harvested !

 

[62484GlenLyon]

Many years ago I was "entertained" by tales from a one time p.w.worker from Brighton who said that Patcham Tunnel, and especially Clayton Tunnel, always needed to treated with extra care, not only because of the 3rd rail. These tunnels were the travelling time for those who had made a bee-line for the toilets as the train pulled out of Brighton.


Another feature when using the toilets on the European trains was the cold wind on one's nether regions.

 

[The exile]

I'm guessing they weren't harvested !

No reason why they shouldn’t be (other than effort)

 

[yorksrob]

No reason why they shouldn’t be (other than effort)

I did read recently that when North Korea sent various bags of waste to the South by balloon, said waste was analysed and found to contain a large number of parasites. Apparently this was due to the NK practice of using "night soil" as fertilizer, so I assume that may be a similar risk in this scenario.

 

[D6130]

I did read recently that when North Korea sent various bags of waste to the South by balloon, said waste was analysed and found to contain a large number of parasites. Apparently this was due to the NK practice of using "night soil" as fertilizer, so I assume that may be a similar risk in this scenario.

Europeans travelling to China are usually advised not to eat salads or raw vegetables, as human waste is in widespread use as a fertiliser.

 

[yorksrob]

Europeans travelling to China are usually advised not to eat salads or raw vegetables, as human waste is in widespread use as a fertiliser.

I never knew that !

I guess the body adapts to such things after a while.

 

[The exile]

Europeans travelling to China are usually advised not to eat salads or raw vegetables, as human waste is in widespread use as a fertiliser.

I imagine a lot of that is due to the danger of external contamination rather than something nasty actually within the food itself.

 

[SAPhil]

I remember seeing some impressive specimens (!) at what is now the south-eastern platforms at St Pancras when they were used by Thameslink by the occasional class 317 during the rebuilding of St Pancras in the early 2000's.

 

[Angusbswheeler]

When I was starting out on my railway career I was a lookout on the ECML. The fine mist that sometimes covered you as an HST flew past at 100mph was not a nice experience as you knew where it was coming from.
All you could do was turn your back and hope someone hadn't pulled the flush just as they passed you!

When I did my track safety course in the early nineties one thing they emphasised was to look in the direction that a passing train was going so, if somebody did flush, it theoretically would only hit the back of your head. And yes this did happen.

 

[WesternLancer]

I know people who today don’t use the train lav until train has left the station as they don’t realise retention tanks are now the norm. Adherence to an old etiquette!

 

[Russel]

I think when South West Trains got the 158/8 and 159/1 units the only way they could fit compatible retention tanks was to reverse engineer the design by removing one from a 159/0 and literally cutting it open because there were no blueprints!

I can't imagine cutting open a 20+ year old retention take was a very pleasant experience!

 

[Spartacus]

There is (I kid you not) currently an exhibition in the Nuremberg railway museum featuring the devlopment of railway lavatories (https://dbmuseum.de/en/underpressure) which makes an interesting point that it was air pressure caused by high-speed trains in tunnels that drove the switch to retention tanks, as open WC pipes caused (at best) pressure changes in the carriages or (at worst) back-flow up the WC drains. That's probably one reason why the APT was one of the first trains to have contained lavatories in the UK.

The move to pressure-sealed trains forced the use of retention tanks, which in turn encouraged low-water systems such as the recirculating chemical closets on the APT and first-gen Eurostar, pneumatic WCs on the 159s or the modern vacuum systems: otherwise not only do you have to empty them very frequently but there's a gradual but significant shift in centre of gravity as water passes from overhead freshwater tanks to underframe septic tanks which affects the dynamics of the train.

When the Mk4s entered service they exposed a rather horrible flaw. No, if you're putting something into a contained tank you need a valve to allow air out, otherwise you increase the pressure, with potentially explosive results. You want this to be a one way valve because anything being forced in that way would force whatever was in there to be forced out of any other exit, i.e. the toilet. Now, anyone who'd stood on an underground platform will know the pressure wave you get from an approaching train. Put two 125 mph trains in a tunnel in opposite directions and you get quite a pressure wave, which was able to overcome the one way valve, pushing air INTO the tank and..... well...!

 

[D6130]

When the Mk4s entered service they exposed a rather horrible flaw. No, if you're putting something into a contained tank you need a valve to allow air out, otherwise you increase the pressure, with potentially explosive results. You want this to be a one way valve because anything being forced in that way would force whatever was in there to be forced out of any other exit, i.e. the toilet. Now, anyone who'd stood on an underground platform will know the pressure wave you get from an approaching train. Put two 125 mph trains in a tunnel in opposite directions and you get quite a pressure wave, which was able to overcome the one way valve, pushing air INTO the tank and..... well...!

Yes....I well remember hearing reports of such unpleasant explosions back in the day! Luckily it never happened to me.

 

[The exile]

When the Mk4s entered service they exposed a rather horrible flaw. No, if you're putting something into a contained tank you need a valve to allow air out, otherwise you increase the pressure, with potentially explosive results. You want this to be a one way valve because anything being forced in that way would force whatever was in there to be forced out of any other exit, i.e. the toilet. Now, anyone who'd stood on an underground platform will know the pressure wave you get from an approaching train. Put two 125 mph trains in a tunnel in opposite directions and you get quite a pressure wave, which was able to overcome the one way valve, pushing air INTO the tank and..... well...!

I understand that in the submarine service this was known as “getting your own back’.

 

[Peter Mugridge]

Yes....I well remember hearing reports of such unpleasant explosions back in the day! Luckily it never happened to me.

It was discovered during testing in the tunnels south of Grantham, and it did NOT require a second train on the other track either!!

Known as the "waterspout effect" at the time...

 

[Gonzoiku]

I remember seeing some impressive specimens (!) at what is now the south-eastern platforms at St Pancras when they were used by Thameslink by the occasional class 317 during the rebuilding of St Pancras in the early 2000's.

Indeed, the concrete slab trackwork at Kings Cross Midland City retained ample evidence that class 317 did not feature retention tanks, pre Thameslink on the BedPan line. Although I think bedpans were for heating one's bed, rather than keeping it .... dry?

GZ

 

[Paul180]

There is a fantastic book called "British Rail Stinks" and they have a very amusing chapter on the development of retention toilets.

 

[OhNoAPacer]

This thread has reminded me of a tale one of my teachers told of travelling around Europe with friends, probably in the 1950s. It concerns a boat and not a train but it does involve a non- retention tank toilet.

Travelling on a boat on a lake one of his friends went to use the toilet for a purpose involving him sitting down. Whilst his friend was using the facilities another boat passed in the opposite direction, it created a rather large wave, the wave arrived at their boat, their was a cry of expletive expletive expletive Their friend returned with very wet and very smelly trousers.

 

[thesignalman]

When I was starting out on my railway career I was a lookout on the ECML. The fine mist that sometimes covered you as an HST flew past at 100mph was not a nice experience as you knew where it was coming from.
All you could do was turn your back and hope someone hadn't pulled the flush just as they passed you!

As you say, at any sort of speed the product vapourised and there were no solids to strike you but we still called the vapour "flying turds" because you really didn't want your clothes soaked in the stuff. You could see it coming and needed to step as far clear of the line as was possible.

That being said, some of the staff in those days were pretty odourous at the best of times and a spray down might have improved the situation!

John

 

[AY1975]

Are you old enough to remember what the track bed at termini used to look like? Especially London termini that were frequented by sleepers?

Many termini where sleeping car trains started and terminated had troughs beneath the track to catch the effluent from sleeping car toilets. As I recall Paddington had them at every platform (in fact they are still in situ there but have now been filled in with ballast), as did certain platforms at Euston and Platform 12 at Manchester Piccadilly.

A number of Mark 1 Sleepers were fitted with retention tanks, mainly East Coast ones.

I don't think they had them from new, though, only with their 1970s refurbishment/facelift.

I don't ever remember Kings Cross having troughs beneath the tracks, so maybe retention tanks were fitted to ECML Mark 1 sleepers because of drainage problems at Kings Cross.

Presumably before that (and after that in the Mark 1 sleepers that didn't get retention tanks) there was signage either in the toilets or in each compartment explaining that it was OK to flush the toilets when stood at the station where the train started and terminated but not at any intermediate stations.

 

[The exile]

Many termini where sleeping car trains started and terminated had troughs beneath the track to catch the effluent from sleeping car toilets. As I recall Paddington had them at every platform (in fact they are still in situ there but have now been filled in with ballast), as did certain platforms at Euston and Platform 12 at Manchester Piccadilly.

My memory seems to suggest that those troughs weren't necessarily "flushed out" daily. Either that or an awful lot of people on non-sleeper trains ignored the signs!

 

[thesignalman]

My memory seems to suggest that those troughs weren't necessarily "flushed out" daily. Either that or an awful lot of people on non-sleeper trains ignored the signs!

Your memory is perfect. Paddington, at least, did not look at all nice in those days!

John

 

[Rescars]

Many termini where sleeping car trains started and terminated had troughs beneath the track to catch the effluent from sleeping car toilets. As I recall Paddington had them at every platform (in fact they are still in situ there but have now been filled in with ballast), as did certain platforms at Euston and Platform 12 at Manchester Piccadilly.

IIRC every Mark 1 sleeper compartment was fitted with an integrated "gozunder" below the handbasin, signed with something along the lines of "Unsuitable for solid matter. There is a WC at the end of the corridor" or words to that effect. With so many potential effluent outlets from sleepers, the troughs would seem to have been a prudent innovation.

 

[boiledbeans2]

I know people who today don’t use the train lav until train has left the station as they don’t realise retention tanks are now the norm. Adherence to an old etiquette!

There are still announcements not to flush at stations!
See this thread

Flushing toilet at station

A year ago, I was on a Class 166, and on approaching the terminus, there was an automated announcement of "Please do not flush the toilet at the station" (or similar). I thought it was probably an old announcement, as it was on a GWR Class 166 still in FGW livery. Just a few days ago, I was on...

www.railforums.co.uk

 

[DerekC]

I remember learning about train toilets when out on a Boy Scout hike. Arrived at a footpath crossing on the (late lamented) Somerset & Dorset to hear a whistle in the distance. So we waited (as you do). In due course a standard tank trundled past at a leisurely pace at the head of a three or four coach stopper, leaving a large deposit precisely in the middle of the foot crossing!

 

[Spartacus]

I remember learning about train toilets when out on a Boy Scout hike. Arrived at a footpath crossing on the (late lamented) Somerset & Dorset to hear a whistle in the distance. So we waited (as you do). In due course a standard tank trundled past at a leisurely pace at the head of a three or four coach stopper, leaving a large deposit precisely in the middle of the foot crossing!

When I was in a mischievous mood I liked to try and 'aim' at crossings

 

[furnessvale]

At least in the UK you still had control (delay flushing until moving again) unlike many continental trains with only a flap (if that) and an open pipe.

.......and a very cold backside in winter!

 

[DarloRich]

What terrible event led to this warning being affixed?

The brown ( although apparently often blue) cloud?

 

[contrex]

Re: open pipe - I remember flushing on a Russian carriage and my alarm at seeing the speeding track appear beneath the toilet bowl...

I often saw that in the 1950s in LMS-style (built under BR) coaches between St Pancras and Derby. I think they were nicknamed 'portholes' because of the round white-glazed toilet windows. Someone told me that there are lots of tomato plants up and down the UK rail network because of direct-discharge toilets.