TfW class 398 Stadler Citylink tram trains

[AdamWW]

I was in Sheffield this week and took a ride on the Class 399 tram-train service to Rotherham and back. The interior of the 399s is very different to the 398s - the 399s are styled to match the existing Sheffield trams, with bus-style seats, whereas the 399s will be much more like a train with their high-backed seats.

On the other hand don't the 399s give you a forward view through the cab?

 

[tfw756rider]

On the other hand don't the 399s give you a forward view through the cab?

They sure do (not my video):

The 398s don't, huh? They really are more train-tram than tram-train aren't they.

 

[tigermonstera]

The 398s don't, huh? They really are more train-tram than tram-train aren't they.

Depending on what direction TfW goes, Butetown and Cardiff Bay could be the only "National Rail" stations to be located on a tramway but not a railway (unless any other examples exist).

 

[AdamWW]

The 398s don't, huh? They really are more train-tram than tram-train aren't they.

No sadly they don't have a forwards view. And yes to the train-tram suggestion and I think I've heard them called that before.

It is a shame about the lack of forward view though - I'd take that as a fair swap for a lack of loos myself (I realise this - rightly - won't be everyone's view).

 

[MikePJ]

No sadly they don't have a forwards view. And yes to the train-tram suggestion and I think I've heard them called that before.

It is a shame about the lack of forward view though - I'd take that as a fair swap for a lack of loos myself (I realise this - rightly - won't be everyone's view).

Here's a 398 interior from one of the press visits to Taff's Well depot - you can see the solid door to the cab.

 

[AdamWW]

Here's a 398 interior from one of the press visits to Taff's Well depot - you can see the solid door to the cab.

View attachment 190568

Indeed and I saw that for myself on a low loader (though of course from the inside).

 

[chrisjo]

Another delivery (waiting at the M4 J32 interchange).

What are the various different steps in the transport process between exit from the Stadler factory in Valencia and delivery to Taffs Well on an Allelys low-loader? Does it do any of this journey by rail? How does it get across the Channel? And so on?

 

[StripeyNick]

What are the various different steps in the transport process between exit from the Stadler factory in Valencia and delivery to Taffs Well on an Allelys low-loader? Does it do any of this journey by rail? How does it get across the Channel? And so on?

They come by boat to Avonmouth Docks where they are then brought over to Cardiff by lorry. I wouldn't be surprised if the trucks go over Spain to collect them and then go straight onto the boat in Valencia......I could be wrong.

 

[Steddenm]

I also saw this chilling there that day.

View attachment 190462

It doesnt look very safe on that truck. It seems to be not only tilting backwards but sideways as well.

On another note, will these ever be used as double sets?

 

[positron]

It doesnt look very safe on that truck. It seems to be not only tilting backwards but sideways as well.

On another note, will these ever be used as double sets?

I think I remember reading that they'll actually quite often be doubled up. Especially during Peaks.

 

[John R]

I think I remember reading that they'll actually quite often be doubled up. Especially during Peaks.

The original plan was that every other unit would be a double set, at least in the peak. So in an hour, of the four departures from each valley head there would be: single, double, single, double.

Whether that is still the intention though I do not know.

 

[MikePJ]

The original plan was that every other unit would be a double set, at least in the peak. So in an hour, of the four departures from each valley head there would be: single, double, single, double.

Whether that is still the intention though I do not know.

The timetable also is supposed to alternate between services serving Cardiff Bay and Cardiff Central, presumably with double sets to Central and singles to the Bay

 

[Cardiff123]

If the 398s start running to the current timetable in single formation when first introduced, that will be an immediate 50% reduction in seating capacity compared to the current service on the TAM lines with the 756s, as the 398s have slightly less seating capacity than a 150.

 

[MikePJ]

They’re going to start as singles on the Pontypridd - Cardiff Bay services, replacing 150s, but I’d expect to see them as pairs once they start replacing 756s. Not sure if running as pairs will need two conductors, or if one conductor will switch units periodically to check fares.

 

[Cardiff123]

They’re going to start as singles on the Pontypridd - Cardiff Bay services, replacing 150s, but I’d expect to see them as pairs once they start replacing 756s. Not sure if running as pairs will need two conductors, or if one conductor will switch units periodically to check fares.

Pacers in double formation were common under ATW and in the early years of TfW without 2 guards on board, so there's precedent for double units without gangways running in service on the Valleys without 2 guards or 2 on board staff members.

 

[geoffk]

Depending on what direction TfW goes, Butetown and Cardiff Bay could be the only "National Rail" stations to be located on a tramway but not a railway (unless any other examples exist).

I still think the Coryton branch would have been ideal for the tram-trains, with its closely spaced stops. Also it could be converted to a pure tramway so no need for fencing or footbridges (although I don't think there are any but there are foot crossings, which presumably need railway-type protection). And extension beyond Coryton to an M4 Parkway, if it ever happens, would be more straightforward and cheaper.

 

[tigermonstera]

On another note, will these ever be used as double sets?

The original plan was that every other unit would be a double set, at least in the peak. So in an hour, of the four departures from each valley head there would be: single, double, single, double.

Whether that is still the intention though I do not know.

According to the Cardiff Crossrail Outline Business Case:

Of the 36 CVL vehicles, 24 are required for the core 4 trains per hour service on the Treherbert, Aberdare, and Merthyr Tydfil routes, with three spare units for maintenance cover, and nine vehicles for peak strengthening to meet passenger capacity.

Which suggests that extra units will be available to double up services.

It's also worth noting that Cardiff Crossrail is being built to accommodate double sets and the Bay Line Transformation Project is being built to accommodate triple sets, although I imagine the latter is future provision considering the platform lengths on the rest of the network.

 

[MikePJ]

I still think the Coryton branch would have been ideal for the tram-trains, with its closely spaced stops. Also it could be converted to a pure tramway so no need for fencing or footbridges (although I don't think there are any but there are foot crossings, which presumably need railway-type protection). And extension beyond Coryton to an M4 Parkway, if it ever happens, would be more straightforward and cheaper.

It's quite likely to happen eventually - the consultants' report for the Cardiff Crossrail scheme suggests that Coryton and Penarth could get 398s as part of the scheme, and the 756s would be redeployed elsewhere.

 

[tigermonstera]

It's quite likely to happen eventually - the consultants' report for the Cardiff Crossrail scheme suggests that Coryton and Penarth could get 398s as part of the scheme, and the 756s would be redeployed elsewhere.

Which report was this?

 

[800001]

Pacers in double formation were common under ATW and in the early years of TfW without 2 guards on board, so there's precedent for double units without gangways running in service on the Valleys without 2 guards or 2 on board staff members.

Precedent is irrelevant, it will all depend on what has been agreed between the TOC and the unions for a method of working.

 

[MikePJ]

Which report was this?

See the map on slide 3 of the "Item 6" presentation, and the full report ("Item 4") from Mott MacDonald from 2023. It's worth noting that in the 2023 report there's a small note in the bottom corner of the map saying "M Barry", presumably referring to Mark Barry.

 

[tigermonstera]

See the map on slide 3 of the "Item 6" presentation, and the full report ("Item 4") from Mott MacDonald from 2023.

Thanks for the reports. It'll be interesting to see how these plans develop in the future, considering how much the metro has evolved since it was initially proposed.

 

[slowroad]

See the map on slide 3 of the "Item 6" presentation, and the full report ("Item 4") from Mott MacDonald from 2023. It's worth noting that in the 2023 report there's a small note in the bottom corner of the map saying "M Barry", presumably referring to Mark Barry.

Done with a crayon, then.

 

[tfw756rider]

I think I remember reading that they'll actually quite often be doubled up. Especially during Peaks.

Exactly, a 6-car double 398 will be about the equivalent of a 4-coach 756.

 

[MikePJ]

Looks like there were a large number of 398 runs from Taff's Well to Cardiff Central in the small hours of this morning:

Realtime Trains | Departures from Taffs Well around 0100 on 18/10/2025

Train information at Taffs Well around 0100 on 18/10/2025. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

and

 

[tfw756rider]

Depending on what direction TfW goes, Butetown and Cardiff Bay could be the only "National Rail" stations to be located on a tramway but not a railway (unless any other examples exist).

No sadly they don't have a forwards view. And yes to the train-tram suggestion and I think I've heard them called that before.

It is a shame about the lack of forward view though - I'd take that as a fair swap for a lack of loos myself (I realise this - rightly - won't be everyone's view).

Replies acknowledged

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 22 Oct 2025 ==

Does anyone happen to know which 398 was on the daytime test runs on the 13/10/25?

 

[Last Hurrah]

During the early hours around 3.30am a triple set of 398’s went passed in the direction of Ninian Park on test

Improvements to Cardiff Bay platforms could presumably accommodate triple sets of 398’s for post Arena Events

I’m wondering which other stations, Central, Queen St, Pontypridd aside, could accommodate loaded triple sets

 

[MikePJ]

During the early hours around 3.30am a triple set of 398’s went passed in the direction of Ninian Park on test

Improvements to Cardiff Bay platforms could presumably accommodate triple sets of 398’s for post Arena Events

I’m wondering which other stations, Central, Queen St, Pontypridd aside, could accommodate loaded triple sets

Platform lengths are all listed in the Network Statement, which you can get from here or see attached - pages 81 and 82. A 398 is 40m long (same as a 150) so you're looking for stations with a platform usable length greater than 120m.

Cardiff Bay will have 160m platforms when finished, so plenty long enough. Going north from Queen St, all the stations to Pontypridd via Llandaf are long enough for a triple set (although at Radyr platform 2 is too short), as are all the stations to Treherbert. Many of the stations have 124m platforms, some are longer.

Aberdare and Merthyr are both too short, as are several of the stations on those branches. The City Line platforms are also too short.

 

[Last Hurrah]

Platform lengths are all listed in the Network Statement, which you can get from here or see attached - pages 81 and 82. A 398 is 40m long (same as a 150) so you're looking for stations with a platform usable length greater than 120m.

Cardiff Bay will have 160m platforms when finished, so plenty long enough. Going north from Queen St, all the stations to Pontypridd via Llandaf are long enough for a triple set (although at Radyr platform 2 is too short), as are all the stations to Treherbert. Many of the stations have 124m platforms, some are longer.

Aberdare and Merthyr are both too short, as are several of the stations on those branches. The City Line platforms are also too short.

Thanks for your reply . . .

A number of stations have had platform extensions, and the platform length shown maybe out of date - City Line stations for example, while Ty Glas is currently being extended

Did Coryton gain a yard or so when the modern buffer stop was recently installed

 

[tigermonstera]

A number of stations have had platform extensions, and the platform length shown maybe out of date - City Line stations for example, while Ty Glas is currently being extended

I've had a look through the sectional appendix for new and extended platforms on the City and TAM lines:

• Danescourt - extended platforms to 84m (platforms 1&2)
• Fairwater - extended platforms to 84m (platforms 1&2)
• Waun Gron Park - extended platforms to 84m (platforms 1&2)
• Dinas Rhondda - new platform of 86m (platform 2)
• Ynyswen - new platform of 86m (platform 2)
• Treherbert - new platform of 116m (platform 1)
• Aberdare - new platform of 84m (platform 2)
• Quakers Yard - new platform of 98m (platform 2)

Ynyswen's planning documentation references provision for a 40m platform extension for its new platform (RCT Council Planning Ref: 23/0678/DEM)