Class 175s to GWR

[Rhydgaled]

The real problem is that GWR mainly has the express IETs and suburban units, and nothing that even half resembles a 4 or 5car regional unit. The 158s and 175s are all short, not suitable for busy regional routes unless operated in multiple.

I would argue that the 5-car IETs are as close to being a good regional express design as they are to being a good InterCity train (ie. about half way between the two, and not a particularly good design for either). The 158s and 175s on the other hand are near-perfect* for regional express, if operated in multiple on the busy sections (which, in GWR's case, is probably the whole route but portion working can be useful elsewhere (eg. the Cambrian lines)). It's not just GWR that doesn't have a good 5-car regional express design but the whole of GB - the closest we have come on this island are the class 444 and 442 EMUs.

* given their build dates and remaining life; these days any new-build stock should be electrification-ready. Otherwise, the 158/159s are nearer to the mark in terms of running costs and provision of end gangways, while the 175s have an interior and window size (allowing both decent legroom and decent alignment, apparently, while the 158/159s only allow the latter) which comes closer to the optimum for this role.

 

[The exile]

I would argue that the 5-car IETs are as close to being a good regional express design as they are to being a good InterCity train (ie. about half way between the two, and not a particularly good design for either). The 158s and 175s on the other hand are near-perfect* for regional express, if operated in multiple on the busy sections (which, in GWR's case, is probably the whole route but portion working can be useful elsewhere (eg. the Cambrian lines)). It's not just GWR that doesn't have a good 5-car regional express design but the whole of GB - the closest we have come on this island are the class 444 and 442 EMUs.

* given their build dates and remaining life; these days any new-build stock should be electrification-ready. Otherwise, the 158/159s are nearer to the mark in terms of running costs and provision of end gangways, while the 175s have an interior and window size (allowing both decent legroom and decent alignment, apparently, while the 158/159s only allow the latter) which comes closer to the optimum for this role.

Even regional expresses (possibly even especially regional expresses) need doors and aisle arrangements better able to cope with major passenger churn than the 158s do.

 

[HamworthyGoods]

When GWR Devon and Cornwall get the 26 175s with 19/20 150s and 5/6 turbos sent down from Bristol they will be able to easily cover all diagrams with the appropriate stock. I would expect the Penzance Cardiff service would be reinstated from May 2026 when all the 175s should be refurbished.

Penzance to Exeter worked by 175s and Exeter to Cardiff worked by 80x remain the same in the May 2026 timetable.

 

[REVUpminster]

Penzance to Exeter worked by 175s and Exeter to Cardiff worked by 80x remain the same in the May 2026 timetable.

If we take 5 3car and 1 2car 175 to work Okehampton and Barnstaple service; that leaves 10 3 car and 10 2 cars left.
How many diagrams work Exeter to Penzance shuttle service? The 3 HST diagrams spoken for leaves a possible 7 other units assuming they use them as 5 car trains which they don't have too. They have to make use of the stock allowing for spare units for any failures.

 

[Express380]

Two moves that appear to be 175s look scheduled to be passing at St Erth at 09:46 on Monday, Tuesday, Thursday and Friday I'll to catch them Tuesday or Thursday link is below

https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/se...-21/0000-2359?stp=S&show=all&order=wtt&toc=GW

 

[jamieh27]

If we take 5 3car and 1 2car 175 to work Okehampton and Barnstaple service; that leaves 10 3 car and 10 2 cars left.
How many diagrams work Exeter to Penzance shuttle service? The 3 HST diagrams spoken for leaves a possible 7 other units assuming they use them as 5 car trains which they don't have too. They have to make use of the stock allowing for spare units for any failures.

Well Exeter to Penznace (Suppsedly Cardiff Central is one train every two hours) most services do Penzance to Plymouth.

 

[Roger B]

I think you meant two different vehicle numbers there?

Got me there. I've corrected my post now - many thx

 

[tfw756rider]

Got me there. I've corrected my post now - many thx

Welcome

 

[fgwrich]

Two units out today.

175009 is on Plymouth > Penzance > Newton Abbot > Plymouth shuttles.

175007 is sat in Plymouth station having also worked 5Z21 0623 Plymouth to Plymouth via Newton Abbot and Penzance.

 

[321362]

Try the 14 December. There was only one HST diagram. Not saying it is, but could be.

Realtime Trains | 2C24 1126 Exeter St Davids to Penzance | 14/12/2025

Real-time train running information for 2C24 1126 departure from Exeter St Davids to Penzance on 14/12/2025. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

It's pathed as either a 158 or a 175 so fingers crossed

 

[Bornin1980s]

I wonder, is a 175 really more efficient than a five car IET? I mean, they are lighter and less powerful BUT, they are over twenty years old, and use a hydro-mechanical transmisson which would put more strain on the old engines, at least one of which would always be in reverse gear.

 

[brad465]

I wonder, is a 175 really more efficient than a five car IET? I mean, they are lighter and less powerful BUT, they are over twenty years old, and use a hydro-mechanical transmission which would put more strain on the old engines, at least one of which would always be in reverse gear.

I suspect IETs are not as efficient on the calling patterns they have been assigned on local Cornish services compared to a 175, and IETs are certainly more efficient on the routes they are being cascaded to, especially where more OHLE is utilised.

 

[3RDGEN]

I wonder, is a 175 really more efficient than a five car IET? I mean, they are lighter and less powerful BUT, they are over twenty years old, and use a hydro-mechanical transmisson which would put more strain on the old engines, at least one of which would always be in reverse gear.

They will be more efficient since they will be 2, 3 or 4 car only, unlikely your going to see 5 cars replacing many of the IET diagrams.

Re reversing, that's done within the transmission on the output side so the engine and the transmission run the same whichever direction is selected so isn't a problem.

 

[REVUpminster]

They will be more efficient since they will be 2, 3 or 4 car only, unlikely your going to see 5 cars replacing many of the IET diagrams.

Re reversing, that's done within the transmission on the output side so the engine and the transmission run the same whichever direction is selected so isn't a problem.

Why not? with 16 3 cars and 10 2 cars they should be able to cover the IETs diagrams after the HSTs when enough stock arrives. Are there more than 10 diagrams doing Exeter - Penzance.

 

[The exile]

Why not? with 16 3 cars and 10 2 cars they should be able to cover the IETs diagrams after the HSTs when enough stock arrives. Are there more than 10 diagrams doing Exeter - Penzance.

The question is surely how often the HST or local IET workings are genuinely full and standing.

 

[Bringback309s]

Why not? with 16 3 cars and 10 2 cars they should be able to cover the IETs diagrams after the HSTs when enough stock arrives. Are there more than 10 diagrams doing Exeter - Penzance.

I think 3rdgen means 5 car IET diagrams will see 1x3 or 2+2 175's, not a 3+2. 2+2 is only 18 seats short of a 5 car IET standard class and first is hardly used

 

[RPI]

There won't be many doubled up 175 diagrams, very few in fact, the majority of the work they'll be doing will be fine with a two or three car.

 

[3RDGEN]

Why not? with 16 3 cars and 10 2 cars they should be able to cover the IETs diagrams after the HSTs when enough stock arrives. Are there more than 10 diagrams doing Exeter - Penzance.

They will be working the Barnstaple /Okehampton routes and it's been confirmed there's a five on the Barnstaple route so your not going to have the units, 22 diagrammed from 26 maybe 23 in peak summer. The IET's replaced the four coach HST's so 3 or 4 isn't that far short of what was there originally anyway.

 

[Ashley Hill]

and it's been confirmed there's a five on the Barnstaple route

I believe that is one train in the morning which is used by students going to Exeter.

 

[REVUpminster]

There won't be many doubled up 175 diagrams, very few in fact, the majority of the work they'll be doing will be fine with a two or three car.

So where will 26 units be used? We know 5 units on Barnstaple/Okehampton and 3 to replace the HSTs. That leaves 18 units to double up some services or replace IETs.
We know where they are not going; the Cornwall branches, Gunnislake. They will still remain the preserve of the 150s. Paignton-Exmouth will still be turbos and 150s with the odd 175 to cover on occasions when turbos and 150s not available.
The 175s are being sold to the public as increasing capacity not services.

 

[cactustwirly]

So where will 26 units be used? We know 5 units on Barnstaple/Okehampton and 3 to replace the HSTs. That leaves 18 units to double up some services or replace IETs.
We know where they are not going; the Cornwall branches, Gunnislake. They will still remain the preserve of the 150s. Paignton-Exmouth will still be turbos and 150s with the odd 175 to cover on occasions when turbos and 150s not available.
The 175s are being sold to the public as increasing capacity not services.

Replacing the 802s from Plymouth/Exeter - Penzance services

 

[REVUpminster]

Replacing the 802s from Plymouth/Exeter - Penzance services

I have said that on many previous posts. Some 175s will be outstabled at Exeter in space vacated by 158s and be cycled to return to Laira for maintenance.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

The hope is that with the introduction of the Class 175 trains in Devon and Cornwall all Cardiff-Portsmouth trains will be four car Class 158.

One diagram will remain 5-16x but the remaining seven should become 4-158 or 5-158, yes. Hopefully a good amount of 5s as they’re needed.

 

[cactustwirly]

Cardiff-Portsmouth is a limited stop train service, at least at the Portsmouth end where after Salisbury it calls only at Romsey, Southampton Central, Fareham, Cosham then the three end stations Fratton, Portsmouth and Southsea and Portsmouth Harbour where the train has half an hour to turn around. There are eight stations between Southampton Central and Fareham and this train does not stop at any of them.

Class 158s are preferred for this longer distance train service because they have two plus two seating. The hope is that with the introduction of the Class 175 trains in Devon and Cornwall all Cardiff-Portsmouth trains will be four car Class 158.

4 car 158s would be a reduction in capacity Vs a 3 car 166 bear in mind.

According to those in the know, there is a significant amount of passenger churn at Bristol and Salisbury en route so most people are travelling for approx an hour or so, where a 166 would be most suited.
They were the main train on the London to Worcester services until the mid 2010s

 

[weeklycommuter]

4 car 158s would be a reduction in capacity Vs a 3 car 166 bear in mind.

According to those in the know, there is a significant amount of passenger churn at Bristol and Salisbury en route so most people are travelling for approx an hour or so, where a 166 would be most suited.
They were the main train on the London to Worcester services until the mid 2010s

A 4 car 158 has 264 seats all 2+2. A 3 car 166 has 246 seats of which 22 seats are the middle seat of 3 seats. See the GWR Facilities Guide Valid from 1 April 2025 at the following link. I look forward to seeing the class 175 trains added in the next update.

https://www.gwr.com/-/media/gwr-sc-website/files/passenger-assist/2025/Facilities-Guide-April-2025.pdf

 

[RPI]

So where will 26 units be used? We know 5 units on Barnstaple/Okehampton and 3 to replace the HSTs. That leaves 18 units to double up some services or replace IETs.
We know where they are not going; the Cornwall branches, Gunnislake. They will still remain the preserve of the 150s. Paignton-Exmouth will still be turbos and 150s with the odd 175 to cover on occasions when turbos and 150s not available.
The 175s are being sold to the public as increasing capacity not services.

There aren't going to be 26 out of 26 units diagramed, a few peak services will be double sets, I expect there will also be an Exeter spare, but I'm sure @Jrocks will be back with more details when they become available (they're in a position to know)

 

[Wyrleybart]

There aren't going to be 26 out of 26 units diagramed, a few peak services will be double sets, I expect there will also be an Exeter spare, but I'm sure @Jrocks will be back with more details when they become available (they're in a position to know)

To expand though, from my workplace experience, each serviceable unit is allocated to a diagram. Foe example unit 007 and 023 go off depot in the morning as diagrams xx305 and xx318 as coupled sets. Each has their own start finish fuel etc etc but even if they remain coupled all day they will have separate diagrams - formerly programme numbers. I imagine GWR might hope for 21 diagrammes and a spare or two.

 

[Mag_seven]

Can we stick to discussing Class 175s here please.

I have split some speculative posts about the GWR fleet in general to this thread:

How should GWR organise its fleet by journey type?

Moderator note - split from: https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/class-175-to-gwr.272524/ Even regional expresses (possibly even especially regional expresses) need doors and aisle arrangements better able to cope with major passenger churn than the 158s do. I would struggle to disagree...

www.railforums.co.uk

 

[brad465]

A Derby to Ely move has shown up for Tuesday. As it's trailing 400 tonnes that suggests barrier wagons, which could precipitate a 175 drag on Wednesday this week:

Realtime Trains | 5Q46 1002 Derby R.T.C.(Network Rail) to Ely Mlf Papworth Sidings | 28/10/2025

Real-time train running information for 5Q46 1002 departure from Derby R.T.C.(Network Rail) to Ely Mlf Papworth Sidings on 28/10/2025. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

 

[Peter C]

175002 is out-and-about today. Here are the workings it's doing, with notes of the times it's arrived at Plymouth/Penzance (the links are to the Realtime Trains pages for each service):

• 5Z11 0559 Laira T&RSMD - Plymouth (WTT arr. 0615, actual arr. 0607)
• 5Z12 0628 Plymouth - Plymouth (via Penzance) (WTT arr. Penzance 1000, WTT arr. Plymouth 1300, actual arr. 1300)
• 5Z13 1305 Plymouth - Plymouth (via Penzance) (WTT arr. Penzance 1701, WTT arr. Plymouth 2008)
• 5Z36 2022 Plymouth - Laira T&RSMD (WTT. arr 2100, actual arr. ~2032 (I can't see the time on RTT.); this service was supposed to go platform 8 to plat. 7 at Plymouth and then to Laira, but it's gone straight through to Laira.)

-Peter

(Edited to add notes of arrival times for 5Z36.)