Removing trains from departure boards early…

[dosxuk]

The solution to that in the vast majority of places is to advertise the time you lock the doors in the passenger facing timetable, and have the later time in the WTT.

So in places where the lock the doors 1 minute before departure (more is excessive), instead advertise the departure time 1 minute early.

And then half your passengers complain that the trains always leave late, and the other half, knowing that it leaves later than the time in the timetable, start showing up for the actual departure time, not the one in the timetable - and they will be furious if they arrive between the timetabled time and the departure time, and their train is sitting there but they're not allowed to board.

 

[Tester]

And then half your passengers complain that the trains always leave late, and the other half, knowing that it leaves later than the time in the timetable, start showing up for the actual departure time, not the one in the timetable - and they will be furious if they arrive between the timetabled time and the departure time, and their train is sitting there but they're not allowed to board.

Actually they won't.

 

[Taunton]

I commented here before how a train at Paddington (to Cardiff) was removed at "time" from the departure board, but was still at the platform 20 minutes later, doors still open, waiting for a driver, signal on, and with the following departure an hour late cancelled. That sort of passenger-unfriendly over-automation just doesn't replicate what is actually happening at the station.

 

[saismee]

I commented here before how a train at Paddington (to Cardiff) was removed at "time" from the departure board, but was still at the platform 20 minutes later, doors still open, waiting for a driver, signal on, and with the following departure an hour late cancelled. That sort of passenger-unfriendly over-automation just doesn't replicate what is actually happening at the station.

It certainly shouldn't be removed if delayed. Aren't GWR control based in Paddington station? Surely they should be more on top of things.

At my station we have a problem of trains being advertised at XX:30 and people will show up at XX:29 and shout at us to open the gate for them so they don't miss their train. Our barriers are far from the platform so it would be nice to remove the departure from the main boards 1-2 minutes early, mainly just to mitigate the abuse. People still do it with the nearest platform of course, even if I can see the doors have been locked and I tell them it's gone.

 

[DynamicSpirit]

And then half your passengers complain that the trains always leave late, and the other half, knowing that it leaves later than the time in the timetable, start showing up for the actual departure time, not the one in the timetable - and they will be furious if they arrive between the timetabled time and the departure time, and their train is sitting there but they're not allowed to board.

But if the public timetable correctly shows the 'last boarding time' and passengers arrive after that time, then it's obvious to most people they have no right to expect to be able to board. Whereas if - as currently happens - the public timetable shows only a departure time and they have arrived before that time and still aren't allowed to get on the train, then it will certainly look to most 'normal' (=non-railway-enthusiast) people like they have been mislead by the timetable. Hence advertising the correct last-boarding time should lead to fewer complaints and better passenger satisfaction (and more people actually getting to the platform on time).

Having said that, you'd have thought that on a passenger-focused railway, if after the advertised departure time the train is still sitting in the platform, unable to leave, then the decent thing would be to leave the doors unlocked until the train is able to leave. I don't really understand why anyone would want to prevent passengers boarding if the train can't leave the platform anyway.

 

[zwk500]

Having said that, you'd have thought that on a passenger-focused railway, if after the advertised departure time the train is still sitting in the platform, unable to leave, then the decent thing would be to leave the doors unlocked until the train is able to leave. I don't really understand why anyone would want to prevent passengers boarding if the train can't leave the platform anyway.

Isn't it part of the dispatch process that the first tip (i.e. Close Doors) can only be given once the signal has been cleared?

 

[Krokodil]

Isn't it part of the dispatch process that the first tip (i.e. Close Doors) can only be given once the signal has been cleared?

I suppose that some termini (Euston?) close the platform entrance

 

[zwk500]

I suppose that some termini (Euston?) close the platform entrance

true

 

[Brubulus]

It certainly shouldn't be removed if delayed. Aren't GWR control based in Paddington station? Surely they should be more on top of things.

At my station we have a problem of trains being advertised at XX:30 and people will show up at XX:29 and shout at us to open the gate for them so they don't miss their train. Our barriers are far from the platform so it would be nice to remove the departure from the main boards 1-2 minutes early, mainly just to mitigate the abuse. People still do it with the nearest platform of course, even if I can see the doors have been locked and I tell them it's gone.

I've seen this with staff (LNER) at Kings Cross who tell people not to board a delayed train as it could "leave at any moment" (it left 10 mins after this incident)

People will try and get trains they see and do not understand that they can't board until the train is physically moving.

 

[zwk500]

I've seen this with staff (LNER) at Kings Cross who tell people not to board a delayed train as it could "leave at any moment" (it left 10 mins after this incident)

Tbf in disruption station staff won't necessarily know when the signal will be cleared and the train dispatched.

People will try and get trains they see and do not understand that they can't board until the train is physically moving.

I have seen people run at trains that have physically started moving when arriving late on to the platform.

 

[DynamicSpirit]

Tbf in disruption station staff won't necessarily know when the signal will be cleared and the train dispatched.

Even so, it shouldn't take more than a couple of seconds between doors closing and the train being ready to leave, so I don't really see that as an excuse for locking the doors when the train is not ready (other than possibly at a terminus with platform barriers where it's therefore not possible for more people to be on the platform).

I have seen people run at trains that have physically started moving when arriving late on to the platform.

Those people may be thinking by analogy with a bus - where it's not unknown for a bus to start moving and then stop again when driver sees someone else is running to get on. I would imagine that in times past it wouldn't have been completely unknown for a train to do that - particularly at small stations, although probably quite unlikely today.

 

[zwk500]

Those people may be thinking by analogy with a bus - where it's not unknown for a bus to start moving and then stop again when driver sees someone else is running to get on.

I personally think they aren't thinking. In the same way I've seen people waiting for passengers to alight first by forming a perfect semicircle so that alighting passengers cannot get out of the way....

I would imagine that in times past it wouldn't have been completely unknown for a train to do that - particularly at small stations, although probably quite unlikely today.

In times past you might have had somebody chuck open the slam door for you but the train would be unlikely to stop. However some of the people I've seen run at a Pendo moving off at MK were young enough that they probably don't remember slam-door trains.

 

[RJ]

Those people may be thinking by analogy with a bus - where it's not unknown for a bus to start moving and then stop again when driver sees someone else is running to get on. I would imagine that in times past it wouldn't have been completely unknown for a train to do that - particularly at small stations, although probably quite unlikely today.

Definitely seen quite a few trains do that on the DOO routes around South London in recent years.

 

[Trainbike46]

And then half your passengers complain that the trains always leave late, and the other half, knowing that it leaves later than the time in the timetable, start showing up for the actual departure time, not the one in the timetable - and they will be furious if they arrive between the timetabled time and the departure time, and their train is sitting there but they're not allowed to board.

People care about arrival time, not departure time.

Also how many people will notice 1 minute?

 

[saismee]

I've seen this with staff (LNER) at Kings Cross who tell people not to board a delayed train as it could "leave at any moment" (it left 10 mins after this incident)

I'm the opposite... "be quick but don't run" is usually what I'll tell people for most trains if I think they can make it. During disruption or delays I'll make it clear that it could go at any minute and to try board. It's a dispatched station and we are always given a heads up before it goes.

 

[Bikeman78]

You'd have to be pretty close to a door when the close alarm starts to be able to get on board before it actually closes.

People still go for it. The doors on the 800s auto close after approx 30 seconds. I've seen plenty of people panic and rush towards the nearest door even when there are two or three minutes until the scheduled departure.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 16 Oct 2025 ==

Where do UK trains depart 2 minutes early? That is something I have NEVER experienced in 50 years of train travel.

Datchet at 1152 today?

 

[DynamicSpirit]

People still go for it. The doors on the 800s auto close after approx 30 seconds. I've seen plenty of people panic and rush towards the nearest door even when there are two or three minutes until the scheduled departure.

That will be because doors make exactly the same sound when they are auto-closing as they do when they are closing because all doors are being locked for departure. Arguably, ny railway system that prioritised the convenience of passengers would have ensured that there are different and clearly identifiable sounds for the two situations. But obviously not the UK. (And to be fair, I'm not sure that any other networks outside the UK are different in this regard).

 

[edwin_m]

That will be because doors make exactly the same sound when they are auto-closing as they do when they are closing because all doors are being locked for departure. Arguably, ny railway system that prioritised the convenience of passengers would have ensured that there are different and clearly identifiable sounds for the two situations. But obviously not the UK. (And to be fair, I'm not sure that any other networks outside the UK are different in this regard).

The sound always means "don't try to enter/exit" and people are equally likely to be injured by the closing door whatever the reason for the closing. So I think it makes sense to keep the same sound. People shouldn't be dashing for the doors when the alert sounds, and as I mentioned above they are unlikely to make it unless they are right by a door when that happens. If the door has auto-closed they will realise quickly enough that the open button is still active.

 

[PeterC]

Reading through the thread and thinking about my own experiences I think that there is no "one size fits all" solution. There are stations where this works and stations where it doesn't.

I do think that the public timetable should show the last boarding time. At stations like Euston this will be when the barrier closes.

 

[williamn]

Reading through the thread and thinking about my own experiences I think that there is no "one size fits all" solution. There are stations where this works and stations where it doesn't.

I do think that the public timetable should show the last boarding time. At stations like Euston this will be when the barrier closes.

Yes I agree. Taking trains off early at stations like the London Termini makes a certain amount of sense.

Less so at stations where it’s more likely people are connecting, as in my original case of Brighton.

 

[The exile]

The sound always means "don't try to enter/exit" and people are equally likely to be injured by the closing door whatever the reason for the closing. So I think it makes sense to keep the same sound. People shouldn't be dashing for the doors when the alert sounds, and as I mentioned above they are unlikely to make it unless they are right by a door when that happens. If the door has auto-closed they will realise quickly enough that the open button is still active.

I think there is a strong case for two distinct warnings - one “Berlin style” (doesn’t have to be the two-tone one, which they probably have rights on anyway) warning meaning “the doors are all about to be closed and locked” and our current one meaning “this door is closing (for whatever reason)”.

 

[DynamicSpirit]

The sound always means "don't try to enter/exit" and people are equally likely to be injured by the closing door whatever the reason for the closing. So I think it makes sense to keep the same sound. People shouldn't be dashing for the doors when the alert sounds, and as I mentioned above they are unlikely to make it unless they are right by a door when that happens. If the door has auto-closed they will realise quickly enough that the open button is still active.

But even leaving aside that, if you're right next to the door when the alarm sounds, there generally is time for an able-bodied person who is already standing by the doors to enter/exit before the door actually closes, the problem with having the same sound for auto-closing and train-about-to-leave is that it can easily cause people on the platform to panic and incorrectly think they are about to miss the train when in fact all it is is that the door nearest them is auto-closing and they still have ample time to walk along the platform and select which door they want to board from. Yes, as you say, they will see a few seconds later that they can still board, but that doesn't change that they've already had a moment of panic - which would be entirely avoidable with a better designed system.

(Italics who is already standing by the doors added in edit to make meaning clear)

 

[Highlander1]

But even leaving aside that, if you're right next to the door when the alarm sounds, there generally is time for an able-bodied person to enter/exit before the door actually closes, the problem with having the same sound for auto-closing and train-about-to-leave is that it can easily cause people on the platform to panic and incorrectly think they are about to miss the train when in fact all it is is that the door nearest them is auto-closing and they still have ample time to walk along the platform and select which door they want to board from. Yes, as you say, they will see a few seconds later that they can still board, but that doesn't change that they've already had a moment of panic - which would be entirely avoidable with a better designed system.

Perhaps an able bodied person may have time and perhaps they just think they have time and instead become trapped in the door. Best case scenario they're spotted and the doors are released again. The worst case scenario doesn't need to be spelled out.

 

[Sad Sprinter]

it is better that incorrect information be displayed than people run

This is the worst thing I have ever read on this forum.

I started what became a controversial thread a while back on the frosting applied to station footbridges that block the views of the platform to discourage running. It really seems that railway management is at war with natural human behaviour at this point. People are going to run. Telling people to plan their lives better is null and moot. There was some pushback from railway staff who favour anti-running policies because it's traumatic to see people get hurt. I'm sure it is, but if you're working with the public you have to accept that at some point you're probably going to see something not entirely pleasant.

All it takes is one 'slow news day' article, probably sourced from this forum, on the way the railway manipulates information to stop people from running before it becomes sensationalised and people start running around anyway just to be sure their train is still there.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 17 Oct 2025 ==

door nearest them is auto-closing and they still have ample time to walk along the platform and select which door they want to board from

This is a good point. I've seen people bolt into a sudden, shorter and in my opinion more dangerous run when the doors start auto-closing.

 

[saismee]

if you're working with the public you have to accept that at some point you're probably going to see something not entirely pleasant.

In my training we were asked if we've ever witnessed someone have a seizure, then we were warned that we would almost certainly witness one within a year of working on the railway.

 

[Dr Hoo]

In my training we were asked if we've ever witnessed someone have a seizure, then we were warned that we would almost certainly witness one within a year of working on the railway.

This is really important. I have twice had to administer CPR to people who had collapsed after suddenly exerting themselves. Doing it on the floor of a busy booking hall in front of a distraught spouse is awful.

(It doesn’t usually work by the way although a trained First Aider will try it.)

After the second incident I took the decision never to burst into a run (unless properly prepared for it in terms of footwear, clothing, minimal baggage and suitable location).

I’ve also seen a sensible young lady barged into the pit behind the buffers at a London terminus by some charging broad-shouldered idiot.

But apparently rail staff are just supposed to accept and allow such stupidity to go unchallenged by some posters.

 

[The exile]

This is really important. I have twice had to administer CPR to people who had collapsed after suddenly exerting themselves. Doing it on the floor of a busy booking hall in front of a distraught spouse is awful.

(It doesn’t usually work by the way although a trained First Aider will try it.)

After the second incident I took the decision never to burst into a run (unless properly prepared for it in terms of footwear, clothing, minimal baggage and suitable location).

I’ve also seen a sensible young lady barged into the pit behind the buffers at a London terminus by some charging broad-shouldered idiot.

But apparently rail staff are just supposed to accept and allow such stupidity to go unchallenged by some posters.

The point is that you can challenge it (rightly) as much as you like, but you can’t escape the fact that it is human nature and any system that ignores human nature is flawed. Hustle alarms (note the name) that suggest to people that they are about to miss their train when they are not are a poor design.

 

[Purple Train]

Datchet at 1152 today?

Minor point, but for the sake of accuracy, that service was operated by a 455 and I believe they are not permitted to call at Datchet (at least towards Windsor).

The point is that you can challenge it (rightly) as much as you like, but you can’t escape the fact that it is human nature and any system that ignores human nature is flawed. Hustle alarms (note the name) that suggest to people that they are about to miss their train when they are not are a poor design.

Indeed. Which is why I'm unsure about displaying departure times early, as, certainly in darkest commuterland, people will work out that the train is "always two minutes late" or whatever, and get upset when they miss it or it isn't. And they will also complain about the train leaving more than about 45 seconds "late"!

 

[Peter Mugridge]

If the door has auto-closed they will realise quickly enough that the open button is still active.

Don't bet on it...

Last month I was at St Pancras Thameslink southbound; train ahead of mine was in the platform with a three minute dwell. At the next carriage along, the doors auto closed just as a middle aged couple were fast-walking up to board, and they just stood there in lemon mode. After a minute I walked up and pressed the button and they expressed surprise that the doors opened again... the bloke said he thought the light on the button meant it was locked...

 

[Trainbike46]

Minor point, but for the sake of accuracy, that service was operated by a 455 and I believe they are not permitted to call at Datchet (at least towards Windsor).

Indeed. Which is why I'm unsure about displaying departure times early, as, certainly in darkest commuterland, people will work out that the train is "always two minutes late" or whatever, and get upset when they miss it or it isn't. And they will also complain about the train leaving more than about 45 seconds "late"!

It's important to remember that this whole locking doors before departure thing is mostly a thing at major stations where trains have dwells, and at termini. Most intermediate stations the arrival time and departure time are the same, so the situation does not come up.

The kind of people who will complain about the train leaving 45 seconds late and arriving on time at the next station/the destination, will find something to complain about regardless. The departure time should be the last time at which a passenger can join the train (in my view at least). At most stations, that is what is currently in the timetable. At stations with the whole "doors lock X minutes before departure", that is the departure time minus X. At Euston, that will be the time they close the barrier (if they insist on continuing that nonsense). People may well learn that in some cases the train departs 1 minute late some (or even most) of the time, but no reasonable person could argue that they were wronged for a train departing at the advertised time. The UK is an outlier with regards to locking doors and barriers before the time shown in the public-facing timetable (which may differ from the working timetable).