A fair point - I guess I am thinking of cases like the Windrush (ex-NLL) and Mildmay (ex-ELL) lines where point-to-point seasons were abolished - see this thread from the time.
If massive ridership increases can be driven by just putting routes on the tube map, why doesn't TFL just make the London connections map the tube map?
There were plans but I can’t help but wonder whether DfT are now trying to make those plans dependent on additional funding from TfL. I can certainly see DfT doing this as the Moorgates primarily benefit London, as @norbitonflyer ’s stats demonstrate.
It’s not about the map itself, it’s about a consistent and clearly marketed service pattern.
TfL are in surplus so do have money for additional staffing, improving stations, more off-peak services etc. In addition they take a long term view opposed to TOCs and DfT. More staff, better stations, frequency = improved ridership numbers and revenue. Short term investment for long term gain.
I think comments elsewhere that GN could implement the improvements themselves are valid, however they haven't so far. Similarly you could add it to the tube map without it being a TFL run line (eg Thameslink).
I think you may have got the names mixed up? Windrush is the East London and Mildmay is the North London.
Yeah true, that station only reopened in 1982, was closed for over 40 years before that!
Yup
This doesn't mention Thameslink, and just says they would like some devolved lines. It's just making an assumption that he means Thameslink, which doesn't seem to be correct.
Someone else has responded to this claim so I won't.
I'll say it again, that's true. TfL is not needed. But GN is not doing it, and the most we have is a rumour they may up the frequency in a year, at which point they'll already be DFTO, being formed into GBR. TfL, however, says they want to do it, and has applied to take it over and improve it. GN could, maybe GN should, but GN aren't. So TfL will.
Look at the public response to the plans.
It could, same way the Lea Valley service was an existing service run by GA. But it seems like it won't. And as mentioned, TfL won't just improve the service, but they'll give it added relevancy and creates a more integrated network. Again, yes, GN could do this, but they are not and seem to have no plans to.
P2P tickets are still available on the Windrush and also P2P 7 days between New Cross Gate and Crystal Palace/West Croydon, also Queen's Road Peckham to Clapham Junction.
I got mixed up with GTR train classes. Didn’t realise 717s don’t have toilets
First post on this forum. The last par is where the benefit to Londoners comes from and why TfL are interested. I know Essex Road station and I can guarantee that a lot of people that live near there have either never used it or haven’t a clue it exists as it’s not on a tube map. It will get a small refurb as part of the deal and watch the passenger levels rise.
Thanks for confirming my suspicions. Imagine how many people will suddenly gain access to a brand-new-to-them line with just a branding exercise.
Most of the benefits above could be realised without TfL control. The only reason to go through the motions you have outlined in the rest of your post is if GTR are totally unwilling.
Bifurcating London is not the primary motivator for the inclusion of any line on the city map. Forming an easy connection between other nodes already on the map is. This line is underutilized within London compared to all other lines in the area, and the usage statistics reflect this. A branding exercise is a very cost effective remedy.
The Southeastern metro does not reliably turn out high capacity metro-style rolling stock with plenty of standing space like the 717s as the 707s and 376s are woven in with far too many networkers, and there is no clean separation of those services from outer suburban destinations like Tunbridge Wells in terms of wayfinding, platforming, or operations. Combine that with only a handful of connections to other nodes on the TfL network, and the case for SE metro is very poor. The NCL is uniquely placed for inclusion on the tube map - this is not a slippery slope.
There's about 8 tph from London Bridge down the Greenwich line during peak hours, and there's strong connections with the DLR two routes and Elizabeth line. Ultimately there are less trains on the NCL so I'm not sure your point is correct. But let's assume that this one route of Southeastern metro doesn't have more trains than the entire Northern City Line - the Fenchurch Street route is littered with connections to TfL services, would you say that's suited to be added to the map? The route from London Marylebone also has some LU connections and some seldom used stations. One could argue this route might become more popular should it be added to the map. This is very much a slippery slope. I think the idea in post #17 regarding zooming in on zones 1-3 is the best solution - showing all trains within these zones and not excluding anything. But if you had to add a line to the tube map in its' current form- I honestly disagree that the Northern City Line is "uniquely placed" for the Tube Map in comparison to the other rail services in London. In fact I would argue we should start with adding the lines people actually use.
It stops the GN inners being cannibalised to keep the rest of the GN going when the driver establishment inevitably is allowed to become inadequate for providing the full timetable.
Because historically in London, North of the river the main mode is transport is the tube. Mentally they're very tied to that map. Adding lines to that map is the best form of marketing and has driven usage. Both overground and Elizabeth line have seen increased usage because of it.
I also know people who have lived there for a while in the past and, despite it being an almost perfect route, never even knew about it until I told them, and others who the route would be of use to don’t even know about it, apart from the national rail staircase at old street they’ve never really questioned.
This is the fundamental problem. The service isn't good enough or promoted enough so not enough people use it which is the justification for not running more services.
TfL's source is that that was never the case, with the only fares agreement being Epping Forest district resident concessionary pass holders being able to use them on the Tube in the 2000s.
Hertford North to Stevenage and Watton-at-Stone is 65,000 passengers per year; not tonnes in absolute terms, but still more than to Highbury and Islington or Old Street.
Moorgate and Thameslink work is fairly seldom interworked on the same diagrams, but they do share the same roster at certain depots.
Perhaps there should be a zoomed in ’city` tube map and a zoomed out suburban. This would be better IMO than omitting some lines all together for clarity.
Bit of anecdata re knowledge of National Rail which has happened in the last 10 minutes - I work near Colindale station. The Northern Line has been stuffed this morning, a woman has just walked in at work looking flustered that she couldn't get to work - she waited it out because "it would have been 4 buses otherwise". Where would she have got the tube from? Kentish Town. If only there was a mainline train from the same station that cut out 3 of those 4 bus journeys! When I mentioned this she stared blankly at me like I'd stepped off a spaceship.
