Future of the 350/2s

[Farigiraf]

16 units would be needed for Blackpool. Plus you have the 2 Crewe services, potentially Stoke, Manchester Airport-Liverpool, Liverpool-Wigan/Blackpool and the 331s in the east which could all be replaced with 350/2. With some extra infrastructure, a couple could be sent to the North East to run the Morpeth shuttle, though I'm not sure if that's worth it

16 for Airport - Blackpool, 6-8 for Liverpool - Blackpool (more if you increase to half-hourly), a few more for Alderley Edge and Crewe services, plus any extras to Golborne in the future, and you've already nicely used up the 37 or so 350/2s that are available. Eliminates 323s on the routes via Wilmslow and allows you to cascade 331s to replace the rest of the 323s running on the Stoke and Glossop routes too. Might be missing something as this seems perfectly favourable, provided you fit them with ASDO.

 

[Mamorin]

There are only 37 350/2s.

Anyway we don't know what the result of Crewe to Manchester airport via Lime Street was, aka what Northern thought about using 350/2s on semi-fast services.

For all we know Northern's plan if the 382s get delayed is all 323 services become rail replacement bus services until the 382s enter service, thus meaning Northern not taking the 350/2s.

 

[Rail Quest]

For all we know Northern's plan if the 382s get delayed is all 323 services become rail replacement bus services until the 382s enter service, thus meaning Northern not taking the 350/2s.

That's given me a great idea: let's replace the 323s with the good old pacers

 

[brad465]

If there was a TOC having problems with EMU availability, I could see them doing a 365s at Scotrail and getting some in on a temporary basis, providing they can be cleared for necessary routes. There are no places I can currently see this happening in the near future. Northern might need such an arrangement in 2031 if their new fleet is delayed, however if 350/2s haven't found another home they'd probably have been scrapped by this point.

 

[tfw756rider]

Although the trials found them not suitable for stopping trains on lines with closely spaced stations (due to slow door cycles), it has not been made clear if they were rejected outright.

They are better suited to outer suburban and semi-fast services and are 110mph capable. They need a refurbishment and possibly new seats. But if a fleet shuffle / cascade allows them to be used on suitable Northern area services (rather than lines mentioned) doesn't appear to have been 100% ruled out yet. Or if it has there has been no confirmation, just rumours.

For the same cost as (or a lower cost than) new seats, it would probably make more sense to refoam and retrim the original seats and install USB power sockets.

 

[Bletchleyite]

For the same cost as (or a lower cost than) new seats, it would probably make more sense to refoam and retrim the original seats and install USB power sockets.

The seat frames are fine. If they want to go 2+2 the aisle side third seat could just be removed as Merseyrail did to the 50x middle coaches in the 80s, creating great accessibility via a very wide aisle.

 

[FrontSideBus]

350's would at least look better on the airport run. The optics of visitors arriving on a plane and then getting on some old relic of a 323!

 

[Mamorin]

323s have been operating Airport services since they were built.

I don't think airplane passengers are going to care how old the train they use from the airport is.

 

[tfw756rider]

The seat frames are fine. If they want to go 2+2 the aisle side third seat could just be removed as Merseyrail did to the 50x middle coaches in the 80s, creating great accessibility via a very wide aisle.

Exactly. I actually knew about the bolded bit, just didn't mention it.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 15 Oct 2025 ==

Interesting Salford Crescent move 15/16th Oct

Noticed this set of moves to and from Salford Crescent booked for Wednesday night, are there they something to do with the platform or is should I be reading something into that class 350 timing path? https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/service/gb-nr:K44848/2025-10-15/detailed...

www.railforums.co.uk

London NorthWestern Railway Class 350/2 withdrawal

Someone's just asked the question in the allocations and diagrams section about a train running empty on Wed (15th) night from Wembley to Manchester, then acquiring a Q headcode (generally testing) and spending a few hours running Salford Crescent to Bolton, then back to Wembley for 7am. Could...

www.railforums.co.uk

 

[CJ]

Looks like 2 x Class 350s (in 8-car formation) are on there way to Manchester, passed through at Crewe at about 11:20pm-ish.

Most likely going to be running tests on the Manchester Piccadilly - Salford Crescent - Bolton - Salford Crescent - Manchester Victoria section, according to RealTimeTrains and the other forum post?

 

[Fokx]

323s have been operating Airport services since they were built.

Except now they've had their luggage racks ripped out replaced with additional seats and there's absolutely nowhere to store luggage larger than a cabin bag

 

[tfw756rider]

Looks like 2 x Class 350s (in 8-car formation) are on there way to Manchester, passed through at Crewe at about 11:20pm-ish.

Most likely going to be running tests on the Manchester Piccadilly - Salford Crescent - Bolton - Salford Crescent - Manchester Victoria section, according to RealTimeTrains and the other forum post?

Night-time "Northern" 350/2 tests. I wonder if anyone will capture them, like is done with the night-time Cambrian 197 tests.

 

[Mamorin]

I'm sure somebody will capture the 350/2 tests tonight.

 

[tfw756rider]

I'm sure somebody will capture the 350/2 tests tonight.

I'm looking forward to the results if so.

Interesting Salford Crescent move 15/16th Oct

Noticed this set of moves to and from Salford Crescent booked for Wednesday night, are there they something to do with the platform or is should I be reading something into that class 350 timing path? https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/service/gb-nr:K44848/2025-10-15/detailed...

www.railforums.co.uk

Here's the thread with the Realtime Trains schedule links in it by the way.

 

[Mamorin]

I'm looking forward to the results if so.

So am I.

I'm looking forward to the results if so.

Interesting Salford Crescent move 15/16th Oct

Noticed this set of moves to and from Salford Crescent booked for Wednesday night, are there they something to do with the platform or is should I be reading something into that class 350 timing path? https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/service/gb-nr:K44848/2025-10-15/detailed...

www.railforums.co.uk

Here's the thread with the Realtime Trains schedule links in it by the way.

Thanks.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 16 Oct 2025 ==

Except now they've had their luggage racks ripped out replaced with additional seats and there's absolutely nowhere to store luggage larger than a cabin bag

The luggage sets were a nightmare operations wise.

They could not be locked to Airport diagrams and thus ended up doing work they were not set up for.

Got a few memories of traveling to work on an old airport set on peak service to Manchester Piccadilly.

Was not a great experience.

I'd rather have a seat on a train after a plane ride than have to stand on a train due to luggage racks taking up space.

 

[tfw756rider]

Thanks.

Welcome

 

[Bletchleyite]

Except now they've had their luggage racks ripped out replaced with additional seats and there's absolutely nowhere to store luggage larger than a cabin bag

Only a small number of sets got the extra luggage racks, these were used on Piccadilly-Airport stopping shuttles before everything became a through service from further afield. I don't know if they still have them but it was only maybe 4-5 sets at most.

 

[D365]

For all we know Northern's plan if the 382s get delayed is all 323 services become rail replacement bus services until the 382s enter service, thus meaning Northern not taking the 350/2s.

Are the Class 323s planned to be fitted with ETCS for TransPennine? I’m not aware that they are.

 

[Mamorin]

Are the Class 323s planned to be fitted with ETCS for TransPennine? I’m not aware that they are.

323s are not getting ETCS.

 

[D365]

323s are not getting ETCS.

Which is why I’m not understanding your comment about Class 323s wrt TRU; why would they come into the equation?

 

[43096]

Only a small number of sets got the extra luggage racks, these were used on Piccadilly-Airport stopping shuttles before everything became a through service from further afield. I don't know if they still have them but it was only maybe 4-5 sets at most.

Three sets were built for the airport service and had the extra luggage racks: 323223-225.

 

[Mamorin]

Which is why I’m not understanding your comment about Class 323s wrt TRU; why would they come into the equation?

I never mentioned 323s on TRU, the 382s will be used for both TRU and the replacement of 323s and 333s.

The 382 order is planned to be for 62 sets, 12 sets for TRU and the remaining 50 sets are the 323 and 333 replacements.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 16 Oct 2025 ==

Three sets were built for the airport service and had the extra luggage racks: 323223-225.

I know, but it was still a pain in the arse that they were unable to be locked to airport diagrams.

However that is off topic.

 

[D365]

I never mentioned 323s on TRU, the 382s will be used for both TRU and the replacement of 323s and 333s.

The 382 order is planned to be for 62 sets, 12 sets for TRU and the remaining 50 sets are the 323 and 333 replacements.

I was under the impression that Class 382 (and 780/781) will be Phase 1 only, unless Phase 2 is awarded to the same manufacturer. Hence my misunderstanding.

 

[Mamorin]

I was under the impression that Class 382 (and 780/781) will be Phase 1 only, unless Phase 2 is awarded to the same manufacturer. Hence my misunderstanding.

382/780/781 will a be part of both phase 1 and phase 2 according to an article in the October 2025 issue of Modern Railways.

 

[D365]

382/780/781 will a be part of both phase 1 and phase 2 according to an article in the October 2025 issue of Modern Railways.

So unless the present fleet of Northern 323s is retired early for a specific reason, I doubt there would be a reason to stand them down before the Phase 2 EMUs enter service.

 

[Mamorin]

Northern have a hard deadline to withdraw their 323s in 2031 due to the 323s not having ETCS, ETCS will be required due to the WCML getting ETCS.

A delay to the Class 382s entering service would cause an issue.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Northern have a hard deadline to withdraw their 323s in 2031 due to the 323s not having ETCS, ETCS will be required due to the WCML getting ETCS.

Not even nearly all Northern EMU services operate on the WCML.

 

[D365]

Northern have a hard deadline to withdraw their 323s in 2031 due to the 323s not having ETCS, ETCS will be required due to the WCML getting ETCS.

Class 323s are the least of the problems when it comes to ETCS go-live north of Preston (which is the first phase of ’Trilink’ ETCS on WCML)

To bring it back on topic - Class 350/2s are being considered for ETCS fitment. But other than that and air conditioning, do they offer any substantial upgrades for Northern?

 

[Bletchleyite]

But other than that and air conditioning, do they offer any substantial upgrades for Northern?

If SDO and a few platform extensions can allow 8 car running, then capacity. But in general they're just much nicer units than 323s. I can't really think of any aspect in which a 323 is better than a 350/2 bar the already discussed slightly slower acceleration and door cycles.

 

[Mamorin]

Not even nearly all Northern EMU services operate on the WCML.

I know, but for some reason Northern have decided on a 2031 deadline for the withdrawal of the 323s and they have given ETCS on the WCML as the reason.

Odd reasoning but that is the reasoning Northern have given.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 16 Oct 2025 ==

slightly slower acceleration and door cycles

Would it be possible to fix those issues?

If those issues can be fixed then only the leasing cost would prevent the 350/2s going to Northern to replace the 323s in the short term.