LYradial
Member
How long will it be, I wonder, before the government decides to add fuel duty equivalent to 52.95 pence per litre of fuel to electricity used to charge cars
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UK switching to electric vehicles discussion
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Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
Very difficult to identify what electricity is being used for. Even with smart meters it would be fairly easy to "launder" it.
More likely is road pricing which would apply to both ICE and EV.
LYradial
Member
not really you simply add it to the cost at the charging point, abandon home charging and everyone charges at a filling station just as we do for petrol
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
How do you propose preventing home charging?
LYradial
Member
Make possession of of the appropriate plug illegal, i am sure someone will come up with a good idea, but fuel duty brings in a lot of revenue, the loss of which will surely be made up somehow by some form of tax on motoring
I don't know now but to be fair Ford service plans were reasonable. Back 10 years ago work had a Fiesta van and a service was reasonable plus it included a years breakdown cover, which may only have been for business customers.
Based on your quote they aim to offset this by hiking up their price for other work.
You could still have the service plan but get the wet belt replaced elsewhere. You need somewhere reputable familiar with job. Get several quotes even if garages inconvenient to you and be wary of one quoting significantly less than others.
Indeed it is rates like this that are a major deterrent to EV ownership. It doesn't a very high proportion of miles at this rate to offset the home overnight rate and make the annual fuel cost of an EV higher than an ICEV.
That depends on the petrol vs electricity usage.
For urban driving where petrol consumption is higher but electricity usage is lower e.g. 35mpg (17p/mile) vs 5+ miles per kW a clear win.
For longer distances on clear roads where petrol consumption is lower but electricity usage is higher e.g. 60mpg (10p/mile) vs 3 or even 4 miles per kW then a loss.
I can not think of any charger I have seen with a shelter. The only ones under cover have been in a multi-story car park.
So many different chargers and screens will create issues. Petrol / diesel pumps even Pay-at-Pump are fundamentally similar.
Not being able to leave the car for the parking duration will be an issue. Consider driving to a long heritage railway e.g. Severn Valley and want to charge but also travel the length then stay a while e.g. walk into and have a meal at Briridgenorth / Kidderminster before returning and then break the journey e.g. Highley Engine House. The charger only needs to be low rate <10kWh but will be occupied for 6+ hours.
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
I agree, but it'll be road pricing.
This is the ' Elephant in the Room '.
I do not see an addition to electricity but road pricing at say 8p/mile.
It pushes a home charging cost of say 2p/mile to 10p/mile. While the gap is closing the purchase price of EV's still more than a pure ICEV and a much reduced fuel cost saving will be a deterrent.
For the BP/Shell 89p/kWh even 4 miles per kWh becomes over 30p / mile so double petrol if only 40mpg (15p/mile). 50mpg is 12p/mile.
Why on earth would anybody think this is a good idea?
One of the things that is tempting me to go electric is to avoid having to make a special journey to fill up - when I do, it adds 15 minutes at least to my overall journey time. Much easier to go home, pull into the garage/drive and plug in.
Road pricing is an interesting idea, but not sure how it would work in practice? Would it have a variable element (motorways v urban roads)?
They are becoming common.
Quite famously Shell in Fulham converted a petrol station to full EV charging.
(Pic shows a Shell EV charging forecourt, with wooden roof supports covering the chargers.)
Additionally, Fastned are quite well known for having distinctive canopies on lots of their charging hubs.
(Pic shows a Fastned charging hub with a wooden and yellow zig-zag canopy incorporating solar panels.)
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I'm sure I've seen ads on Facebook for a diesel club, where you pay a subscription for what I assume is a payment card you can use at certain petrol stations (like many businesses offer staff). I may be wrong as I've not really paid much attention to the ad, and will look out for it again.
I've boycotted Shell and BP since my petrol and diesel days, so nothing has changed there. They've always taken the mick.
Shell does offer a discount if you give away an incredible amount of personal information and sign up to an app (10p off per kWh) and I'm not sure about BP.
39p is pretty decent for a business liable to pay full VAT and other costs, when the standard variable rate is around 29-30p.
Tesla is still all over the place, with a mix of member and non-member pricing, different prices for different times of the day (for both groups) and fixed rates all day. I guess they're basing that on usage numbers and how many bays they have (and of course there are still many Tesla-only sites that I'm not comparing).
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You'll be talking about the Chinese kill switches next!
(Note; they don't exist as China isn't going to literally destroy all foreign trade forever by doing something so crazy. It's something Trump suggested in his first term relating to firms like Huawei, which was also bogus).
cactustwirly
Established Member
I think road pricing on ICE would be deeply unpopular, unless they got rid of all fuel duty, or else you'd just price people out of commuting to work etc
Home charging is essential, as will be Vehicle to Grid (V2G) that will allow all those huge batteries parked on driveways to help balance the grid when necessary.
No Government (well, maybe Reform) would contemplate doing anything stupid like this. I'd love to see them ban plugs for home use too!
The next step for the Government will be to work out a way to allow people to 'home charge' on a charger that isn't theirs. Then install communal chargers for residents only. I am not sure the best way to do it, but something like that needs to be done.
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It will be quite hard to set up, given no cars have one standardised system for installing such code.. which would mean hardware having to be fitted to each vehicle (and then systems in place to avoid fraud).
It couldn't just be ANPR based, which can also be defeated, so I fully expect a lot of consultation, a fear of the 'war on the motorist' making any party proposing it unelectable, years of working out the needs for the project, massive overspends and delays, and then issues with enforcement.
I think the better idea is just to introduce tax brackets on EVs that aren't based on emissions but things like vehicle weight, its original price (Denmark does something like this I believe) or motor efficiency. Reward those who have an EV that averages 5 or 6 miles per kWh over the heavy SUVs doing 2 to 3 miles...
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Nobody knows. There’s lots of options being discussed and those options may include ignoring/excluding existing EVs (which might create a very interesting second hand market) and ICE vehicles. As well as generating significant revenues, fuel duty is relatively cheap to collect and enforce.
Another option to pay per mile is to significantly increase the vehicle excise duty rates for EVs.
This. I absolutely 100% do not miss driving to a petrol station, queuing (yes, you do need to do this a lot of the time unless you fill up late at night), freezing when it's cold and wet, and getting smelly.
Okay, the last bit is maybe a bit of an exaggeration and something you can live with for a few minutes, but I save more time not having to go to a petrol station AT ALL.
And when I do need to charge when driving long distance, I prefer plugging in and going off to do what I was going to do (toilet, eat, stretch legs) and then coming back and unplugging. Again, no detour to fill up.
The 'only takes 2 minutes to fill the tank' argument doesn't work for me as I've done that since the 1990s and it isn't the 'flex' some people make it out to be!
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I think this makes more sense and will ultimately happen.
While EVs eliminate emissions, they don't get rid of congestion. There should be incentives for people to get smaller, lighter, cars just as there were for ICE vehicles.
Or the simplest pay per mile scheme is just to take the mileage off the odometer. It gets read during the yearly MOT, so charge based on the difference to the previous year’s reading. I think 8p/mile was mentioned previously, which roughly equates to the current value of fuel duty divided by the number of miles driven in total. MOT stations are already charging motorists and sending the money to the government, so there’s not that much extra work required.
While keeping fuel duty would be a big motivator to switch to an EV IMO politically if road pricing vs fuel duty was to be revenue neutral it would have to be totally removed. If road pricing was introduced on a sliding scale then fuel duty would be reduced pro-rata. As posted numerous times as the demand for petrol falls the price will increase beyond what it would be if sales were still at the current volume.
Thinking about the blocks of flats and the smallest houses with no parking within the plot on my estate the logical solution is chargers in each parking area. For the older houses around the town where just street parking then 'lamppost' charges. Within an area use is linked to the home electricity supply account with VAT at 5% not 20%. If prepay not on account then the account has to be in credit by a minimum of say 10 units so the house is not cut off. A small charge can be added to cover part of the cost of the chargers, home users have a cost for their charger even if hidden into the car purchase price. For others the kW cost is the same as a low rate charger at say a hotel with VAT at 20%. One issue is who will cover the upfront cost of the installation then the maintenance.
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VED is a fixed charge. The replacement for fuel duty needs to be usage based. A standard cost per mile is not ideal as the same for a small car driven gently or a large SUV driven fast and hard. Cars could be classed based on efficiency but that adds complexity.
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I would expect the charging to be based on time of day and/or type of road.. so I am not sure that just checking the overall mileage will really work or be considered fair.
There will be a need to generate an official mileage check in years 1 and 2 of vehicle ownership (no MOT until year 3) and maintain the annual MOT check (some are lobbying to change it to a two yearly check). There is also the impact of a big “tax bill” being levied at once per annum.
I think it has legs as an option. It isn’t the fairest and has costs in terms of enforcement to make sure that people are not fiddling the mileage. However, it’s done through the network of MOT stations and is easy to understand.
cactustwirly
Established Member
What if the dials are faulty or have been replaced?
What if a mileage blocker is installed or the car is clocked?
What if you buy a car halfway through the year? Are you then liable for the previous owners mileage?
What if you get a "friendly MOT" and the tester enters in a lower mileage?
I think there are too many flaws with that
Harpers Tate
Established Member
- Joined
- 10 May 2013
- Messages
- 2,054
I wouldn't say that an early years check is necessary. At the first MOT the three years' worth of tax would be payable. See also below.
All and any scheme can be "hacked". Nothing is perfect.
Yes. And you'd take account of that in the vehicle's value, price paid. Simples. Ditto for a car bought during it's first 3 years.
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
There are many potential models, the simplest just being a per mile charge imposed at MoT time (presumably with an option to spread through the year by direct debit in the manner of energy), via changing the per mile amount based on vehicle size/weight, to complex models individually and dynamically pricing roads on a flexible basis by way of some sort of on board tracker box.
The latter is controversial so I suspect we will end up with something more like the former. It is near inevitable because there is no way the Treasury can forego the income from fuel tax - I did work it out roughly once and it looked to me like if you increased VAT to compensate (say) it would mean that needing to be at least 30%.
I doubt many politicians would be brave enough to bring in a per mile charge, but if they did it would almost certainly need to be charged in such a way that it encourages people to travel at off-peak times and/or use different types of road to reduce congestion.
Just looking at mileage would not really seem to be fair, so would have loads of resistance. You'd almost certainly get any fitted box tampered with quite quickly too, so I really don't know what the solution would be.
Just looking at mileage would not really seem to be fair, so would have loads of resistance. You'd almost certainly get any fitted box tampered with quite quickly too, so I really don't know what the solution would be.
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
A simple per mile charge based on the vehicle is essentially what fuel tax does. It's just directly replacing that. No box is needed for doing it using the odometer.
cactustwirly
Established Member
I would welcome a vehicle size/weight charge.
But that would disproportionately effect large families and EV owners.
I would be ok, drive a relatively small/lightweight car - circa 1,500kg
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
That is in line with now, though, because you use more fuel and therefore pay more fuel tax on a larger, heavier vehicle.
I expect EVs would be on a different scale taking account of the fact that their emissions are negligible at the point of use (only tyre wear) and much lower overall.
cactustwirly
Established Member
Kind of but a Diesel SUV or estate is going to use less fuel than a lightweight coupe with a big engine
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
It doesn't need to be a perfect model. It just needs to be good enough. I would suggest it's likely fuel tax wouldn't go away, anyway - EVs would just pay road pricing, ICEs would pay both taxes. We would not want to get rid of the taxation incentive to move to an EV.
Road pricing, unlike fuel tax, allows you to tweak stuff like reducing the cost paid for 7 seat MPV type vehicles* for large families while still slamming Range Rovers and the likes with big taxation, too.
* The term "SUV" is used for a very wide range of vehicles. For instance a Ford Kuga 2WD is little more than a bodykitted, vertically stretched Focus, in essence basically the same thing as the old Renault Megane Scenic but with slightly more rugged looks, whereas something like a Range Rover or Defender is an entirely different class of vehicle - much higher, much heavier and much thirstier and as a result needing to be far more heavily discouraged through the tax system, particularly in urban areas.
I think if we're to have per mile pricing, it needs to be a formula which factors in tailpipe greenhouse gas emissions, either particulate matter emissions or weight, and of course miles.
With that in place we could ditch VED which is a pretty unfair tax anyway it disproportionately affects people who don't drive their vehicle as often.
With that in mind you could potentially actually reduce the total tax paid by some motorists. And you're incentivising choosing the right vehicle for the right job (walking to the corner shop, cycling to school, using the car when you're buying a mattress, etc).
There would need to be some consideration on different vehicle types and classifications, to ensure HGVs (for example) are treated fairly, but that can be worked out.
With that in place we could ditch VED which is a pretty unfair tax anyway it disproportionately affects people who don't drive their vehicle as often.
With that in mind you could potentially actually reduce the total tax paid by some motorists. And you're incentivising choosing the right vehicle for the right job (walking to the corner shop, cycling to school, using the car when you're buying a mattress, etc).
There would need to be some consideration on different vehicle types and classifications, to ensure HGVs (for example) are treated fairly, but that can be worked out.