UK switching to electric vehicles discussion

[david1212]

Last week the car fire at a car park for Heathrow Airport was picked up but not the transporter on the M5. Two reports both state EV's and one states Chinese BYD's.

Dramatic images as electric cars burst into flames on the M5

We have put together a photo gallery of the devastating fire

www.devonlive.com

Dramatic pictures and video footage have captured the moment a car transporter moving electric vehicles caught fire on the M5 in Devon. Scroll to the bottom of this article to see our photo gallery.

The HGV was carrying nine cars, believed to be have been built by Chinese electric vehicle manufacturer BYD, on the motorway between Cullompton and Exeter, when it burst into flames.

All the vehicles on board were soon swallowed up by the fire and the motorway was closed so firefighters could tackle the blaze.

Explosions were heard and a huge mushroom cloud of smoke was visible over the motorway as the fire took hold and destroyed the car transporter and its cargo.

Exeter: 'It was a big fireball that went up' - lorry blaze closes M5

A blaze involving a lorry carrying electric vehicles closed the M5 near Exeter, diverting traffic through an East Devon village.

eastdevonnews.co.uk

It was a big fireball that went up, exploding across the M5’ – car transporter blaze closes motorway near Exeter​

A blaze involving a lorry carrying electric vehicles sparked a major incident and closed the M5 near Exeter, diverting hours of motorway traffic through an East Devon village.
A car transporter carrying nine electric vehicles was destroyed on the M5 between Exeter and Cullompton, amid a blaze at around 6.30am on Tuesday, October 1.
Both sides of the M5 between junctions 28 and 29 were closed to traffic while the fire service tackled the blaze and motorists were diverted off at Cullompton along the B3181, through Budlake and Broadclyst village.

An eyewitness travelling on the M5 when the car transporter caught fire said the blaze was ‘almost like a firework show’, describing ‘plumes of smoke, big black smoke’. He told BBC Radio Devon: “We all slowed down and it was a big fireball that went up straight away, exploding across the M5. It was almost like a firework show.”He said the lorry was smouldering but looked ‘completely destroyed’.

----------------------------------------

That is one interpretation. Another is that the more local manufacturers need to put way more effort into making cars that people want to buy at prices people want to pay.

Much as we might wish to - we can't escape from Chinese influence. Take a look at the place of manufacture of the device/s you used to post here. It's going to take way, way more than taxing cars to get anywhere.

Or maybe the likes of Stellantis could stop making rubbish cars and charging far too much for them? I'm sorry but forty grand is not a reasonable price for a small family SUV, electric or otherwise. It's blatant profiteering. Forty grand is into the premium car territory.

Even if a brilliant car indeed £40k is too much.

By contrast, the Chinese companies are largely getting the price about right and they're largely good cars too - the MG4 for instance is getting absolutely rave reviews. I'll be honest, apart from the boot being a bit on the small side I'm very tempted by one.

Certainly better starting at just over £27k list but not cheap.

The Skoda and Dacia brands seem to be the only European ones now charging anything like reasonable prices, and Skoda is still on the pricey side of the mix, while Dacias largely feel cheap (though I heard good things about their newest SUV).

VAG are launching their small EV next year. I will be watching the actual retail price and specifications across the Seat, Skoda & VW variants. Then the price drop over a couple of years. My current car will be 10 years old at the start of 2029. By then I have to decide on EV or petrol around 2years old.

One big concern is width. The Skoda Elroq is 2.15m across the mirrors and 1.89m across the body. The MG4 mentioned above is 2.06m across the mirrors and 1.83m across the body. The smallMG3 Hybrid is 2.01m across the mirrors and 1.80m across the body.

My garage door is 7' which is 2.14m then the clearance each side so absolute maybe 2.16m ..... The actual garage width is 2.5m except less near the front between two brick buttresses. I have to reverse in as the kitchen door is into the garage forward of the rear of the car.
My current car is 1.94m across the mirrors and 1.71m across the body. The current Skoda Fabia is is 1.96m across the mirrors and 1.83m across the body and the VW Polo is 1.96m across the mirrors and 1.78m across the body.

 

[Bald Rick]

VAG are launching their small EV next year. I will be watching the actual retail price and specifications across the Seat, Skoda & VW variants.

I expect the ID2 to be list priced around high 20s for the base model. It’s going to be a very popular car. My guess is that the launch edition will be £29,995. Feel free to come back to prove me wrong next year!

(If the ID2 had been launched last year, I would now own one).

 

[jon0844]

The car transporter fire was apparently a fire started on the transporter itself (braking system on one of the axles I recall?) so neither a battery fire or diesel fire.

It did the rounds on social media over the weekend with most people blaming the (electric) cars themselves and some the lorry tractor. Seems both groups were wrong.

 

[Bald Rick]

The Skoda and Dacia brands seem to be the only European ones now charging anything like reasonable prices, and Skoda is still on the pricey side of the mix, while Dacias largely feel cheap (though I heard good things about their newest SUV).

The Dacia Hipster looks quite remarkable! I’ve seen some good reviews too.

However, the price of cars is one of those things, like iPhones, rail tickets, and Paul Smith Jeans* that have roughly kept pace with RPI inflation over the years. What seems like a horrifying price is, actually, just the effects of inflation. That £40k car now is the equivalent of a £20k car in 2007.

Anecdata alert: In 2007 I bought a 6 month old ex-demonstrator with 5,000miles on the clock (and with a massive discount off list price), for £28k, ie equivalent to £56k today. It felt like a lot of money at the time, but nowhere near as much as £56k feels now. The equivalent model now, as an ex demonstrator with similar miles and 6 months old, will cost you £40k. A brand new one has a list price of £58k, but you’ll get one for £52-53k. Clearly with 18 years of development the latest version is quicker, much better fuel consumption , and much more tech. On this one example, you get much more car for less (equivalent) money now than you did nearly 20 years ago.

*In January 1991 I toddled off to Floral Street in Covent Garden to buy a pair of Paul Smith Jeans. They were £48. Levis were typically £40, so it felt like a good deal. That £48 then is the equivalent of £150 today. The base price for Paul Smith Jeans today is… £150. I then spent £75 on a pair of FILAs (£235). Today if either of my kids spent £150 on a pair of jeans, or £235 on a pair of trainers, I would go absolutely postal.

 

[bspahh]

One big concern is width. The Skoda Elroq is 2.15m across the mirrors and 1.89m across the body. The MG4 mentioned above is 2.06m across the mirrors and 1.83m across the body. The smallMG3 Hybrid is 2.01m across the mirrors and 1.80m across the body.

My garage door is 7' which is 2.14m then the clearance each side so absolute maybe 2.16m ..... The actual garage width is 2.5m except less near the front between two brick buttresses. I have to reverse in as the kitchen door is into the garage forward of the rear of the car.
My current car is 1.94m across the mirrors and 1.71m across the body. The current Skoda Fabia is is 1.96m across the mirrors and 1.83m across the body and the VW Polo is 1.96m across the mirrors and 1.78m across the body.

A KIA EV3 is 1.85m wide with the mirrors folded in.

https://www.kiaownersclub.co.uk/threads/measured-width-including-mirrors.81708/ has a discussion on fitting it into a garage. Someone says its fine to park in a 2.21m wide garage door with the mirrors open.

You could fold the mirrors and use the reversing cameras.

The GT Line S also has Remote Smart Parking Assist, which will move the car back and forward when you are stood outside. I have tried this out to move my car back and forth on my driveway, but not to park it in a garage.

On the EV3, the remote parking doesn't adjust the steering - the bigger EV9 has RSPA2 which does do that.

 

[notverydeep]

Anecdata alert: In 2007 I bought a 6 month old ex-demonstrator with 5,000miles on the clock (and with a massive discount off list price), for £28k, ie equivalent to £56k today. It felt like a lot of money at the time, but nowhere near as much as £56k feels now.

Economists have a term for this phenomena: Money Illusion. Where our sense of the buying power of the money we have lags behind the decline in its actual value after a period of significant inflation. It means our wages still sound reasonable, but they have declined much more in real terms than our sense of value.

 

[jon0844]

One of only a few cars I ever bought brand new was £32k back in 2008, which appears to be about £52,623.58 according to the Bank of England inflation calculator.

By comparison, the EV I bought recently was £18k. Not brand new, but not far off in terms of age and mileage and the list price for the car is £37k (which working backwards would have made it £22,499.42). This is why depreciation is mostly a good thing if you're savvy.

The amount of 'toys' on the new car is significantly greater than what I had on the 2008 car (despite it being the top spec model with add-ons), but more importantly - there are a host of (active and passive) safety features that the 2008 car didn't have. Obviously things improve over time, but it's important to consider that these things still have a cost and many more features are mandatory now than before.

Perhaps the most crazy thing is that my current EV would have cost £10,945.66 in 2008 money based on what I actually paid for it.

It's absolutely true that people seem to forget that all cars got more expensive than they probably remember. Given people don't always change cars that often, they may well be making comparisons based on cars they owned 10 or more years ago.

 

[AM9]

It's absolutely true that people seem to forget that all cars got more expensive than they probably remember. Given people don't always change cars that often, they may well be making comparisons based on cars they owned 10 or more years ago.

Those who are resistant to the move to EVs also seem to assume that IC cars, both new and second hand will maintain their current price relationship with EVs as the latter fall. If there are enough petrol diehards remaining when the supply of new IC vehicles is effectively turned-off there will be a scramble for whatever is left on the used market. This will push their prices way above equivalent EVs.

 

[jon0844]

There will be a period of time where people scramble for ICE cars (a bit like those who filled their home with incandescent bulbs and vacuum cleaners) and then there will be a time when there's no demand at all and prices fall off a cliff (at least for non classics*).

It remains to be seen when these events happen (I think diesel cars will be the first to become unsellable) but there will be some winners and losers, just as there was when second hand values were over inflated during and after Covid.

* There are also more and more companies doing ICE to EV conversions and many classics may be given a new lease of life this way. The most recent example I saw was a classic VW Beetle.

 

[Bald Rick]

Economists have a term for this phenomena: Money Illusion. Where our sense of the buying power of the money we have lags behind the decline in its actual value after a period of significant inflation. It means our wages still sound reasonable, but they have declined much more in real terms than our sense of value.

Aha - thank you for that. It’s the same phenomenon that made my late Grandmother think that a fiver for a birthday gift in my late teens was a lot of money (it bought me three pints).

 

[david1212]

The car transporter fire was apparently a fire started on the transporter itself (braking system on one of the axles I recall?) so neither a battery fire or diesel fire.

It did the rounds on social media over the weekend with most people blaming the (electric) cars themselves and some the lorry tractor. Seems both groups were wrong.

It will be an expensive insurance payout - 9 cars at UK dock gate price, the transporter and removal from the M5. Also claims for attending by police and fire service then overnight resurfacing of the road.

----------------------

A KIA EV3 is 1.85m wide with the mirrors folded in.

https://www.kiaownersclub.co.uk/threads/measured-width-including-mirrors.81708/ has a discussion on fitting it into a garage. Someone says its fine to park in a 2.21m wide garage door with the mirrors open.

You could fold the mirrors and use the reversing cameras.

Yes camera can be used and so mirrors folded to get through the door and past the buttress but then needed to see left rear wheel arch is clear of the wall.

-------------------------

Those who are resistant to the move to EVs also seem to assume that IC cars, both new and second hand will maintain their current price relationship with EVs as the latter fall. If there are enough petrol diehards remaining when the supply of new IC vehicles is effectively turned-off there will be a scramble for whatever is left on the used market. This will push their prices way above equivalent EVs.

There will be a period of time where people scramble for ICE cars (a bit like those who filled their home with incandescent bulbs and vacuum cleaners) and then there will be a time when there's no demand at all and prices fall off a cliff (at least for non classics*).

It remains to be seen when these events happen (I think diesel cars will be the first to become unsellable) but there will be some winners and losers, just as there was when second hand values were over inflated during and after Covid.

Aside from large SUV's how sellable are diesel cars now? The relative reliability of 20+ years ago has been lost by the expensive failure of DPF's and EGR's plus because of these and the gains with petrol the fuel consumption is often not significantly lower.

There will be ICE diehards but as discussed many times in this thread also those who will not have a home charger or access to one so have to either have ICE or pay the kW/h price for public EV charging. Only time will tell in say 2035 at 'lamp-post' chargers what overnight rate will be compared to a home EV tariff.

Unless before with a very good deal I change my current ICE car for another ( realistically not EV given how latest and soon to be introduced models are significant improvements plus prices are falling ) in 3 years time I will be looking at the value of my car and the purchase price of a 2 year old ICE or EV.

 

[AM9]

There will be ICE diehards but as discussed many times in this thread also those who will not have a home charger or access to one so have to either have ICE or pay the kW/h price for public EV charging. Only time will tell in say 2035 at 'lamp-post' chargers what overnight rate will be compared to a home EV tariff.

Unless before with a very good deal I change my current ICE car for another ( realistically not EV given how latest and soon to be introduced models are significant improvements plus prices are falling ) in 3 years time I will be looking at the value of my car and the purchase price of a 2 year old ICE or EV.

But even if the acquisition cost of increasingly obsolete IC vehicles is still 'affordable', the owning and running of them is likely to become much more expensive, both in spares, road access charges (owing to their emissions) and fuel which will attract much higher distribution costs when the volume sold is drastically reduced. By then, the cost of energy at public charging stations may be lower per Km than the hydrocarbon alternative, not necessarily through lower electricity prices, but through petrol prices at pumps rising.

 

[Mawkie]

I hadn't realised that First, the huge transport undertaking, is offering public charging based in a number of their bus depots. 39p per kWh in Glasgow City Centre must be some of the cheapest 150kW charging around there?

Open from 0900-1630 with an on-site host available. This seems like a decent use of underutilised infrastructure.

Ultra-Rapid Electric Vehicle Charging

Welcome to First Charge – Powering the Future of Clean Transport Every day, we move over a million people. Now we’re powering the future of transport - our goal is to have a zero-emission bus fleet by 2035 and we are well on our way to meeting to our target. We have 1,200+ zero emission vehicles...

www.firstbus.co.uk

(Pic shows a map of the UK with 15 First charging locations in England and Scotland.)

 

[jon0844]

That's a great idea but sadly the 39p rate is an introductory offer rate only. I hope they don't opt to go for the 'usual' 70-90p range later.

Maybe someone should ask if they can do a charge of any length for a fixed £3?

 

[RuddA]

Appears that only Glasgow and Newquay are for general public use, the rest are for commercial use only.
Newquay is 50p/kWh so maybe that will be the standard price.

 

[N1]

Appears that only Glasgow and Newquay are for general public use, the rest are for commercial use only.
Newquay is 50p/kWh so maybe that will be the standard price.

Yes, I believe the Newquay one is a seperate parking facility next to the bus depot, if anyone can confirm? Glasgow one is insidenthe bus depot itself, but only at the chargers near to the south entrance of Caledonia (very short walk out the depot). The retail park opposite I believe is currently having more chargers installed, so the bus depot prices will always have to stay low to compete.

As a note you do see some vehicles charging at Caledonia occasionally, usually Openreach vans or police cars, but a few other companies as well. Ember also use Glasgow Caledonia for charging as well.

 

[Energy]

As a note you do see some vehicles charging at Caledonia occasionally, usually Openreach vans or police cars, but a few other companies as well. Ember also use Glasgow Caledonia for charging as well.

First Charge has deals with Openreach, Police Scotland, DPD, and Centrica (British Gas), so you'll see those more often. [source]

Usually, the employee pays for lunch, and the company pays for charging/fuel; so Sainsbury's charging tends to be quite popular for company vans, despite the charging being relatively expensive.

 

[HSTEd]

I expect there will probably be a bunch of Autogas/propane conversion kits sold for a variety of ICE cars, especially 'classics'.

Petrol availability is likely to dry up rapidly as volumes fall, and there are considerably more restrictions on storage and transport than for propane.

As it is, I think a lot of plug in hybrids are going to end up pensioned off as short range runarounds for want of petrol supplies. I don't think many have diesel engines....

But it looks like plug in cars will be the majority of cars sold in a month relatively soon.

 

[Mawkie]

But it looks like plug in cars will be the majority of cars sold in a month relatively soon.

To this point, I think plug-in hybrids have decent tax incentives for company car drivers?

If you look on them as being a "stepping stone" to full BEV ownership then I think they are a relatively inoffensive stop gap. I've got a friend with one and he says, "Oh it's marvellous, I never have to put petrol in because I charge at home every night."

When I suggest to him that a full EV with a massively longer range would suit 99.99% of his needs, he's not quite over the 'might need to drive to Scotland to rescue xxxx at 3am', but he's getting there.

 

[Acey]

Thinking seriously of going full electric after my local Ford dealer quoted me £1958 to change the (wet ) cambelt on my Fiesta,now I know it's a bit of a job but come on nearly £2000 for a piece of rubber belt and 8 hours work (their estimate ) ps doesn't include water/oil pump !

 

[Bletchleyite]

Thinking seriously of going full electric after my local Ford dealer quoted me £1958 to change the (wet ) cambelt on my Fiesta,now I know it's a bit of a job but come on nearly £2000 for a piece of rubber belt and 8 hours work (their estimate ) ps doesn't include water/oil pump !

The wet belt on recent Fords is quite possibly the worst piece of automotive design in living history. Well, slight exaggeration, but it is pretty bad. It is one of two main reasons when I bought my most recent car I ended up ruling out the Focus estate (which was otherwise tempting) in favour of a Kia (the other being that the shape of the driving seat hurts my back). And yes, you do avoid the cambelt issue generally by going EV!

 

[david1212]

The wet belt on recent Fords is quite possibly the worst piece of automotive design in living history. Well, slight exaggeration, but it is pretty bad.

Totally agree. Others are bad e.g. VAG have, or at least had as backed off on some, a 4 or 5 year replacement on cambelts. Less expensive each time than Ford but after 10 years in total similar.

Thinking seriously of going full electric after my local Ford dealer quoted me £1958 to change the (wet ) cambelt on my Fiesta,now I know it's a bit of a job but come on nearly £2000 for a piece of rubber belt and 8 hours work (their estimate ) ps doesn't include water/oil pump !

As I presume this Fiesta is 10 years old why are you using the stealer dealer? At this age the service history adds to the value but not dealer vs independent. I have never used one after 3 years / first MOT. The labour rate of a reputable independent should be at most half of the dealer rate.

And yes, you do avoid the cambelt issue generally by going EV!

Certainly an EV plus if buying outright to keep for several years and when buying used.

 

[N1]

Thinking seriously of going full electric after my local Ford dealer quoted me £1958 to change the (wet ) cambelt on my Fiesta,now I know it's a bit of a job but come on nearly £2000 for a piece of rubber belt and 8 hours work (their estimate ) ps doesn't include water/oil pump !

As I presume this Fiesta is 10 years old why are you using the stealer dealer? At this age the service history adds to the value but not dealer vs independent. I have never used one after 3 years / first MOT. The labour rate of a reputable independent should be at most half of the dealer rate.

Agreed, I paid less than half that at an independent to get cambelt and water pump changed on a now 13 year old fiesta.

 

[cactustwirly]

The wet belt on recent Fords is quite possibly the worst piece of automotive design in living history. Well, slight exaggeration, but it is pretty bad. It is one of two main reasons when I bought my most recent car I ended up ruling out the Focus estate (which was otherwise tempting) in favour of a Kia (the other being that the shape of the driving seat hurts my back). And yes, you do avoid the cambelt issue generally by going EV!

Even though a newish Focus estate is fixed and doesn't have this issue

 

[Bletchleyite]

Even though a newish Focus estate is fixed and doesn't have this issue

Depends what you mean by "newish". The ones in my price range at the time did have the wet belt. Unless you mean the early failure thing is fixed, but TBH I consider a wet belt a fault in itself, it's a stupid piece of design in the extreme.

 

[cactustwirly]

Depends what you mean by "newish". The ones in my price range at the time did have the wet belt. Unless you mean the early failure thing is fixed, but TBH I consider a wet belt a fault in itself, it's a stupid piece of design in the extreme.

Well a couple of years old
Changed to a timing chain I believe, you can avoid it by not going for the 1.0L engine

 

[jon0844]

Be.EV has just emailed me to say they're now charging 39p per kWh from 1900 to 0700 at all locations, and for a monthly (1 month minimum term) fee you can get 39p all day (£9.99) or 49p during the day (£4.99).

Good to see more companies reducing rates, especially without the need to subscribe if you can charge 'out of hours'.

The same email says these rates are not a time limited offer.

 

[Acey]

Totally agree. Others are bad e.g. VAG have, or at least had as backed off on some, a 4 or 5 year replacement on cambelts. Less expensive each time than Ford but after 10 years in total similar.


As I presume this Fiesta is 10 years old why are you using the stealer dealer? At this age the service history adds to the value but not dealer vs independent. I have never used one after 3 years / first MOT. The labour rate of a reputable independent should be at most half of the dealer rate.


Certainly an EV plus if buying outright to keeping for several years and when buying used.

Laziness really,the dealer is only a short walk from me and when I bought the car they gave me a reasonable service plan which I kept up ,if I keep the car I'll certainly be looking for an alternative !

 

[Mawkie]

Be.EV has just emailed me to say they're now charging 39p per kWh from 1900 to 0700 at all locations, and for a monthly (1 month minimum term) fee you can get 39p all day (£9.99) or 49p during the day (£4.99).

Good to see more companies reducing rates, especially without the need to subscribe if you can charge 'out of hours'.

The same email says these rates are not a time limited offer.

This is exactly what's needed - the 89p Shell/BPs of this world should be boycotted!

It's still not as low as the 26p/40p at my local Tesla Supercharger, but the off peak times are much more civilised (and less confusing).

Am I right in thinking circa 50p kWh would be a good comparison to equivalent petrol costs?

If I had any criticism, it would be that these kind of subscription services are designed to obfuscate the total costs to drivers. Can you imagine if the local petrol station tried to charge a monthly fee to buy their petrol?

Anyway it's a good step forward, and hopefully others follow.

 

[Brubulus]

This is exactly what's needed - the 89p Shell/BPs of this world should be boycotted!

It's still not as low as the 26p/40p at my local Tesla Supercharger, but the off peak times are much more civilised (and less confusing).

Am I right in thinking circa 50p kWh would be a good comparison to equivalent petrol costs?

If I had any criticism, it would be that these kind of subscription services are designed to obfuscate the total costs to drivers. Can you imagine if the local petrol station tried to charge a monthly fee to buy their petrol?

Anyway it's a good step forward, and hopefully others follow.

50p or less seems reasonable for rapid charging. The bigger issue is day to day for people without driveways. I'm amazed that fuel stations don't have subscription based loyalty schemes, though I suspect that the userbase would use it so intensively that there's no real discount unless you do a lot of miles, which is what we see with fuel cards.