Meeting Demand for Social Activities

[Masbroughlad]

I write this with a couple of examples - I am sure there are more.

I live in a county town in the Midlands. If I want to go to a gig/event/night out in Manchester on a Saturday night, my last train home is half way through the evening.

I wanted to use the train to go for an afternoon and evening in Blackpool to see the illuminations. Lack of mid to late evening trains home, meant we had to take the car.

Should the UK get much better at meeting demand/boosting towns.by providing later trains? Blackpool can't market itself as an illuminations by train destination for anything other than local journeys. Is this something the tourist board could influence? MPs? Businesses?

24 hour railway in some areas would be good, just earlier/later trains in others.

 

[The Planner]

I write this with a couple of examples - I am sure there are more.

I live in a county town in the Midlands. If I want to go to a gig/event/night out in Manchester on a Saturday night, my last train home is half way through the evening.

I wanted to use the train to go for an afternoon and evening in Blackpool to see the illuminations. Lack of mid to late evening trains home, meant we had to take the car.

Should the UK get much better at meeting demand/boosting towns.by providing later trains? Blackpool can't market itself as an illuminations by train destination for anything other than local journeys. Is this something the tourist board could influence? MPs? Businesses?

24 hour railway in some areas would be good, just earlier/later trains in others.

Engineering access. 4 track railways you have options with, elsewhere not so much.

 

[frankmoh]

I wanted to use the train to go for an afternoon and evening in Blackpool to see the illuminations. Lack of mid to late evening trains home, meant we had to take the car.

Should the UK get much better at meeting demand/boosting towns.by providing later trains? Blackpool can't market itself as an illuminations by train destination for anything other than local journeys. Is this something the tourist board could influence? MPs? Businesses?

24 hour railway in some areas would be good, just earlier/later trains in others.

I'm surprised Blackpool North doesn't get late trains. London gets the most love for UK railways and it shows, both of my local inner suburban stations get a train after midnight.

 

[td97]

county town in the Midlands. If I want to go to a gig/event/night out in Manchester on a Saturday night

There we have it. Manchester local services are reasonably adequate with most routes seeing last services after 11pm.
The Metrolink can often be used as a halfway-house to cut down taxi fares too, this is typically last service from city centre 00:30.
How is your connectivity with Birmingham?

I will admit though, the Coop Live curfew of 11pm does not fit well with National Rail services, particularly Victoria based services.

I'm surprised Blackpool North doesn't get late trains. London gets the most love for UK railways and it shows, both of my local inner suburban stations get a train after midnight.

The last Blackpool departure for Manchester Airport is 2322, and Liverpool is 2220. Not sure I'd want to be on either!

 

[Bletchleyite]

Really gigs and the likes should be required to finish by 2200 or thereabouts, thus making going home by public transport viable. Finishing at 2300 as is typical is unnecessary; those wanting to stay out later can always go for a drink.

 

[JonathanH]

Really gigs and the likes should be required to finish by 2200 or thereabouts, thus making going home by public transport viable. Finishing at 2300 as is typical is unnecessary; those wanting to stay out later can always go for a drink.

Isn't there a challenge at the other end of the gig 'window' that not everyone can leave their workplace early to arrive before an early start.

 

[LittleRedTrain]

Further south in the 'almost commuter belt' we have the same problems, unless you're coming from London.

For Banbury, the two main passenger destinations apart from London will be Oxford (20min away) and Birmingham (around an hour). However the last train back on Saturday from either is around 22:20.
On Sundays it's even earlier from Birmingham, around 21:20!

Means that if you use want to go to a weekend gig, theatre show etc in either city or at the NEC then it's either drive, expensive taxi or hotel. Even an event with a 2200 finish would be far too tight.

Also makes any long distance days out at the weekend a bit of a pain, one delay to a connection and you could easily miss the last train home.
I'd love to do more railtours that pick up in Birmingham, but the scheduled arrival is always cutting it far too fine.

The explanation given by Chiltern is as stated above, being on the main Midlands-Southampton freight route, Saturday/Sunday nights are needed for engineering access and NR won't budge.

 

[Brubulus]

The last train from Ipswich to Cambridge at a weeknight is 2120, which is far too early in my opinion. Generally, where a service is at least hourly, it should run until at least 10pm, unless there are clear reasons not to.

 

[AndyHudds]

It's the same for midweek football matches, a few weeks ago I attended Harrogate Town v Huddersfield Town on a Tuesday night. I thought it would be pretty easy to get back, even on a night, the next available train after the game was at 22.45 then getting back in to Huddersfield at 00.40!!! Its only 30 miles away. I made other travel arrangements for the game.

 

[Zomboid]

The trade off which would have to be made to reduce overnight engineering access and allow later trains on most routes is more daytime engineering access. Which means blockades, rail replacement buses and diversions.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Isn't there a challenge at the other end of the gig 'window' that not everyone can leave their workplace early to arrive before an early start.

The typical format for a gig involves a couple of often-pretty-mediocre support acts and then the main event not starting until about 2100-2130. You'd probably be shifting that back to 2000-2030 which would still suit most people (the vast majority would still make the second support act), and the ability to go straight after work* when one has gone in by train would suit more overall, I reckon.

* Give or take finding somewhere to put your bag now you can't take them in - though finishing at 2200 makes the large-station Excess Baggage Company storage an option, which it's not for gigs ending at 2300 because ludicrously these services all close at 2300, which is a good example of throwing away business!

 

[Howardh]

The typical format for a gig involves a couple of often-pretty-mediocre support acts and then the main event not starting until about 2100-2130. You'd probably be shifting that back to 2000-2030 which would still suit most people (the vast majority would still make the second support act), and the ability to go straight after work* when one has gone in by train would suit more overall, I reckon.

* Give or take finding somewhere to put your bag now you can't take them in - though finishing at 2200 makes the large-station Excess Baggage Company storage an option, which it's not for gigs ending at 2300 because ludicrously these services all close at 2300, which is a good example of throwing away business!

I was thinking that; totally unnecessary part of the evening and most aren't bothered, surely an act can come on and do a couple of songs as a sound-check, but come on, who needs them?!!
One other option is for the hotel chains to allow (say) half-price hotel rooms for the night with a ticket but the better option is to finish earlier and transport to run later. Also agree about bags, really at major stations they should be more-or-less 24 hrs; even if just secure lockers!

 

[Magdalia]

The last train from Ipswich to Cambridge at a weeknight is 2120, which is far too early in my opinion. Generally, where a service is at least hourly, it should run until at least 10pm, unless there are clear reasons not to.

That's entirely a consequence of privatisation and franchising. The Ipswich-Cambridge service went to Anglia and was crewed entirely from the Ipswich end.

Cambridge-Peterborough is even worse. There is no train from Peterborough arriving at Cambridge before 0800 and the last train from Cambridge to Peterborough is at 2100.

Engineering access. 4 track railways you have options with, elsewhere not so much.

This was important when I was commuting, and sometimes staying in London after work. We used to get engineering work every 6 weeks when the last through train was at 2215, and I had to remember not to book any concerts in those weeks.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 15 Oct 2025 ==

I was thinking that; totally unnecessary part of the evening and most aren't bothered, surely an act can come on and do a couple of songs as a sound-check, but come on, who needs them?!!

Today's mediocre support act could be next year's main event.

 

[zero]

One other option is for the hotel chains to allow (say) half-price hotel rooms for the night with a ticket

Why would hotels reduce their rates on nights which have more demand?! The more popular the singer/band the higher the rates go!

 

[Bletchleyite]

Why would hotels reduce their rates on nights which have more demand?! The more popular the singer/band the higher the rates go!

In any case people don't necessarily want to stay over. Those who do want to are already booking hotel rooms at the prices offered.

 

[Howardh]

Why would hotels reduce their rates on nights which have more demand?! The more popular the singer/band the higher the rates go!

Some pubs in Manchester have a "show us your gig ticket and you pay less for your beer" so it's not unusual to get discounts - perhaps 50% is too much!

 

[Bletchleyite]

Some pubs in Manchester have a "show us your gig ticket and you pay less for your beer" so it's not unusual to get discounts - perhaps 50% is too much!

In Germany major event tickets often are public transport tickets for the city in which the event takes place! Though by and large travel within cities isn't the issue here. Didn't one of the Co-op Live gigs do that in conjunction with Metrolink?

 

[Howardh]

In Germany major event tickets often are public transport tickets for the city in which the event takes place! Though by and large travel within cities isn't the issue here. Didn't one of the Co-op Live gigs do that in conjunction with Metrolink?

When the footy Euros were on in Netherlands, 2000, ticket holders got free travel on any network for the day of the game (and day after I think) whether it be tram, train or bus. With the cost of going to watch our national teams, maybe that's something that should be considered for the trains, although not 100% off but maybe a substantial discount? Especially if England ALWAYS play their home games at Wembley; really tough on those of us up int' north who follow them*!

Edit - if England played their games on my front lawn I'd shut the curtains...

 

[HSTEd]

I don't think there is much that can be done here except for, perhaps, spending a lot of money to allow the timetable to function with fewer hours blocked off for engineering works.

 

[NCT]

On a mainline railway overnight engineering access is the perennial difficulty. 'More efficient / innovative access regimes' keep doing the rounds but never seem to leave the 'easier said than done' pile. Depending on depot / stabling locations providing symmetrical first and last trains isn't always possible - especially if your service travels through. In London last tube from Zone 1 tends to be around half past midnight, but that's formed out of a last Zone 6 origin departure of more like 2345.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I don't think there is much that can be done here except for, perhaps, spending a lot of money to allow the timetable to function with fewer hours blocked off for engineering works.

There is as I suggested a legislative option that would involve a requirement on those arranging events of this nature in urban areas (stuff like football included), probably those above a certain capacity, to provide for a specified, large percentage of attendees to arrive and depart by public transport and for a formal plan to be created and published for this purpose. There would be a number of aspects to such a plan, which could be justified on environmental grounds (well, at least until most cars are EVs), one of which would be how you're going to make sure that people can reach typical last trains to places within the city's travel-to-work area, which outside London are typically around 2230-2300. Obviously the time you'd need to finish for this varies a bit, the Arena above Victoria clearly wouldn't need to finish as early as the Co-op Arena, to use two Manchester examples.

 

[NCT]

There is as I suggested a legislative option that would involve a requirement on those arranging events of this nature in urban areas (stuff like football included), probably those above a certain capacity, to provide for a specified, large percentage of attendees to arrive and depart by public transport and for a formal plan to be created and published for this purpose. There would be a number of aspects to such a plan, which could be justified on environmental grounds (well, at least until most cars are EVs), one of which would be how you're going to make sure that people can reach typical last trains to places within the city's travel-to-work area, which outside London are typically around 2230-2300. Obviously the time you'd need to finish for this varies a bit, the Arena above Victoria clearly wouldn't need to finish as early as the Co-op Arena, to use two Manchester examples.

And that'd be state overreach.

 

[Bletchleyite]

And that'd be state overreach.

In your opinion. In mine it would be a sensible way to move things in a direction that is not only environmentally sound but also more convenient for those wishing to attend such events.

 

[NCT]

In your opinion. In mine it would be a sensible way to move things in a direction that is not only environmentally sound but also more convenient for those wishing to attend such events.

Just as well there isn't a Ministry of Fun and that you are not running it!

 

[HSTEd]

On a mainline railway overnight engineering access is the perennial difficulty. 'More efficient / innovative access regimes' keep doing the rounds but never seem to leave the 'easier said than done' pile. Depending on depot / stabling locations providing symmetrical first and last trains isn't always possible - especially if your service travels through. In London last tube from Zone 1 tends to be around half past midnight, but that's formed out of a last Zone 6 origin departure of more like 2345.

Well, the Chunnel demonstrates that it is conceptually possible for a railway to operate with very few outright closure hours, but it would require an awful lot of money on infrastructure to apply that operational concept to the entire UK railway!

 

[Magdalia]

There is as I suggested a legislative option that would involve a requirement on those arranging events of this nature in urban areas (stuff like football included), probably those above a certain capacity, to provide for a specified, large percentage of attendees to arrive and depart by public transport and for a formal plan to be created and published for this purpose.

Something a bit like this can happen using the existing planning process. I'm fairly sure that the planning approvals for Ashburton Grove and White Hart Lane included transport planning, and this has recently been seen in the Stansted and Gatwick Airport planning applications.

Just as well there isn't a Ministry of Fun

There is and it is called the Department for Culture Media and Sport.

 

[Brubulus]

On Saturdays and Sundays, with some exceptions, the need for early morning trains is much more limited - this means that engineering blocks should be shifted to run further into the morning if that is what prevents late-night service.

 

[Zomboid]

Just as well there isn't a Ministry of Fun and that you are not running it!

I don't see how it'd be killjoying to require events to have a plan for how they intend people to get home afterwards.

If anything it's ensuring that "fun" is more inclusive of everyone than it is now.

 

[zwk500]

One other thing I don't think has been mentioned is that operating longer hours would impact on depots, maintenance cycles, driver/guard/depot staff shift requirements & rest times, total staff headcount requirements and so forth.

None of these are unsolvable by any means but is something to consider, especially the impact on costs.

 

[HSTEd]

There is as I suggested a legislative option that would involve a requirement on those arranging events of this nature in urban areas (stuff like football included), probably those above a certain capacity, to provide for a specified, large percentage of attendees to arrive and depart by public transport and for a formal plan to be created and published for this purpose. There would be a number of aspects to such a plan, which could be justified on environmental grounds (well, at least until most cars are EVs), one of which would be how you're going to make sure that people can reach typical last trains to places within the city's travel-to-work area, which outside London are typically around 2230-2300. Obviously the time you'd need to finish for this varies a bit, the Arena above Victoria clearly wouldn't need to finish as early as the Co-op Arena, to use two Manchester examples.

The EV thing is coming sooner than we might have expected. In September something like 35% of registered cars were plug in. That suggests something half the cars on the road being electric inside fifteen years.

By the time the ponderous political process completes it will be upon us.

I'd think you'd have a better time buying a couple hundred Yutong electric coaches to hold in a pool for events.