I think the comments by Northern have been misunderstood, they didn't rule themselves out but haven't said they are taking them, which is what any company would say until things are confirmed either way.
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Future of the 350/2s
- Thread starter Intercity110
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I think the comments by Northern have been misunderstood, they didn't rule themselves out but haven't said they are taking them, which is what any company would say until things are confirmed either way.
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Rail Quest
Member
Presumably the process would be no different to the other sub-variants, all of which will also need it fitting for said WCML implementation.
D365
Veteran Member
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ETCS on WCML will, initially, only be north of Preston.
But in answer to the question - Porterbrook is doing work ”behind the scenes”.
Nym
Established Member
ETCS is not too challenging to fit to 350/2s. Provided it’s the right type that ends up being purchased
Would they really need 350/2 if they are getting 450 units replacing most of the BR fleet. Keeping the 195s as well as 331s and maybe 333s.
tfw756rider
On Moderation
The 350/2s would be temporary.
Like Southern when they hired them to be used on Miton Keynes to East Croydon in 2008-2009.
tfw756rider
On Moderation
Yes, although those were 350/1s (fitted with third rail shoes). And if Northern acquired the 350/2s, they'd be using them for a few years, not just one year or less.
Northern are only planning to order 255 of that 450 trains.
The rest of the order book will be for Mayors and local authorities to buy if they want some.
The only part of Northern's current fleet staying with Northern permanently are the 195s and 331s.
== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==
That is 100% what the case would be if Northern took the 350/2s.
However I think a while ago somebody on this thread has said that the 350/2s trials proved they are not suitable for Northern's local stopping services.
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tfw756rider
On Moderation
Oh right. Can you try and find that post? (I'll look for it myself later).
pokemonsuper9
Established Member
tfw756rider
On Moderation
Many thanks.
Do the 323s really accelerate quicker than the 350/2s then? I thought it would be the other way round. I think the acceleration figures for both were stated somewhere in this thread.
amahy
Member
Also, 350/2s have only been stated as inappropriate for the Glossop Line. They haven't even been trialled on any of Northern's other routes.
Halish Railway
Established Member
They’ve been trialed on Liverpool Lime Street to Manchester Airport via Newton-le-Willows.
I doubt it's anything that couldn't be overcome with a couple of timetable tweaks though.
More routes than just Glossop would need timetables tweaked to fit 350/2s.
Stoke is an example, 350/2s have slower door closing times than 323s which would be an issue there as timetabling is tight there as is.
Stoke is just one example, I'm sure there might be other lines with timetabling issues with 350/2s.
Stoke is an example, 350/2s have slower door closing times than 323s which would be an issue there as timetabling is tight there as is.
Stoke is just one example, I'm sure there might be other lines with timetabling issues with 350/2s.
tfw756rider
On Moderation
Thanks, yes, and do you know what the outcome was?
(Others' replies acknowledged)
Could the 350/2 trial be related to the start of Network Bee on the trains from Dec 2026, the first lines are Man Picc - Glossop/Hadfield and Vic - Stalybridge. They stated it would included improvements for passengers so maybe take a few 350/2's, which could be maintained by Seimens at Ardwick as per the 350/4's, the 323's can support other services?
The trials may have been related to it, however given the 350/2s can't be used on the Glossop line I can't see the Bee Network wanting the 350/2s.
And thats if the Bee Network was counted as separate TOC and not part of Northern, and the bee network was allowed to have its own trains.
I think the Bee Network will just keep the rolling stock currently used on the lines which will be a part of the Bee Network. So 323s on Glossop etc…
Snow1964
Established Member
Although the trials found them not suitable for stopping trains on lines with closely spaced stations (due to slow door cycles), it has not been made clear if they were rejected outright.
They are better suited to outer suburban and semi-fast services and are 110mph capable. They need a refurbishment and possibly new seats. But if a fleet shuffle / cascade allows them to be used on suitable Northern area services (rather than lines mentioned) doesn't appear to have been 100% ruled out yet. Or if it has there has been no confirmation, just rumours.
Does Northern even have any services like that?
Surely all of those services are covered by 331s?
The only outer suburban/Semi Fast Northern EMU service I could think of is the Blackpool North service, but surly Northern would not taken on the 350/2s just for one service.
It’s a shame the 350/2s are unsuitable for most of Northern's EMU local stopping services though.
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Farigiraf
Member
IIRC Blackpool North - Manchester Airport / Liverpool Lime Street services are some of, if not the busiest services on the Northern network so even if they would just run on those routes that'd already be a good use for them.
Plus, there's always demand for more mainline services. Depending on capacity (which there probably isn't), an additional tph from Liverpool or Manchester towards Lancaster, potentially via Golborne, would be well used. So would another Newcastle - Darlington (probably no capacity). In fact there may be a case for having some 350s located in the North East for ECML locals: Morpeth, Chathill, Newcastle-Darlington, and I would say the TPE Edinburgh too, but that seems to require a 125mph unit.
Rather than direct replacement of 323s, there's some merit in replacing 331s instead, allowing the 331s to be cascaded to replace 323s. 331s can and do occasionally run on the Glossop line.
Putting 350/2s on Blackpool services would be a huge issue capacity wise, a 4 car 350/2 has less capacity than a 6 car 323 and 8 car 350/2 running is a no go.
Northern plan to replace the 323s with new build Class 382s, but given the 323s have to be gone by 2031 a back up plan is needed in vase the new fleet gets delayed and perhaps a 331s cascade is something being looked at.
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
I don't see why it is provided they were fitted with ASDO.
Thats if they get fitted with ASDO, which is not guaranteed to happen if Northern were to take the 350/2s.
How many 350/2s would be needed for 8 car Blackpool services anyway?
Can't see Northern wanting a micro-fleet but can't see Northern wanting a large fleet just to work services to Blackpool.
How many 350/2s would be needed for 8 car Blackpool services anyway?
Can't see Northern wanting a micro-fleet but can't see Northern wanting a large fleet just to work services to Blackpool.
16 units would be needed for Blackpool. Plus you have the 2 Crewe services, potentially Stoke, Manchester Airport-Liverpool, Liverpool-Wigan/Blackpool and the 331s in the east which could all be replaced with 350/2. With some extra infrastructure, a couple could be sent to the North East to run the Morpeth shuttle, though I'm not sure if that's worth it
Sending only two to the North East would make the 350/2s a mico-fleet there so that won't happen.
350/2s could do well on Crewe services since it has slow lines.
Stoke is a no go for 350/2s, Stoke is worse than Glossop due to the even tighter timetables.
Northern are keeping their 331 fleet, so the 350/2s would not affect the 331 fleet.
350/2s could do well on Crewe services since it has slow lines.
Stoke is a no go for 350/2s, Stoke is worse than Glossop due to the even tighter timetables.
Northern are keeping their 331 fleet, so the 350/2s would not affect the 331 fleet.
Stoke is 110mph, so it's probably more doable, as they might be able to reach those speeds between Macclesfield, Congleton and Kidsgrove, though the impact might not be enough to ameliorate the slower acceleration.
The slow door cycle would cause issues on Stoke stoppers, and acceleration than the 323s would be another huge issue on Stoke stoppers.
The 110mph between Macclesfield, Congleton and Kidsgrove would not make up for all the issues, and that is if there is enough time to reach 110mph.
It’s only 8 minutes between Congleton and Macclesfield using 323s.
Hence why 350/2s would be a no go on Stokes.
The 110mph between Macclesfield, Congleton and Kidsgrove would not make up for all the issues, and that is if there is enough time to reach 110mph.
It’s only 8 minutes between Congleton and Macclesfield using 323s.
Hence why 350/2s would be a no go on Stokes.
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