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Pros and cons of Upper quadrant semaphore versus lower quadrant semaphore signals?

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cool110

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All I can think of, is that an upper quadrant signal arm, if it is weighted by snow, will "fail-safe" dropping to show "danger".
A lower quadrant will as well, since the much heaver lenses and frames are on the opposite side of the pivot to counterweight the arm.
 

norbitonflyer

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An upper quadrant semaphore signal versus lower quadrant semaphore. What are the principle pros and cons of each?

All I can think of, is that an upper quadrant signal arm, if it is weighted by snow, will "fail-safe" dropping to show "danger".
Before semaphore signals, the indications were given by railway policemen who held their arm out to indicate stop, but otherwise stand with his arm down by his side. Early semaphore signals mimicked that by having an arm that extended horizontally for "stop", but fell to the vertical for clear - in many examples it fitted into a slot in the post, although the dangers with that arrangement were made clear after the Abbots Ripton disaster, when several signals got stuck in their slots because of snow. (It would also give a "false clear" if the arm was missing altogether. Hence the movement to have the arm at 45 degress for clear, although other designs existed such as the GNR "somersault", in which the pivot point is bracketed out from the post so that the arm can be seen when in the vertical position. (Picture)
4500681433_9be4610984_b.jpg

Upper quadrant signals will fall to danger without the need for a counterbalance, but lower quadrant signals are designed so that the lenses for the lights perform that function. The only other difference that i can see is that an upper quadrant signal in the clear position is higher, and can therefore be seen for a little further, than a lower quadrant one (so for the same visibility to pivit point has to be higher, and thus the post taller) for lower quadrant
 

Sun Chariot

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A lower quadrant will as well, since the much heaver lenses and frames are on the opposite side of the pivot to counterweight the arm.
If signal wire broke, I agree the "slacked" weight of lens-frame will pivot the lower quadrant signal arm back up to "danger".
But... if a snow layer covers top of both the arm and the lens-frame? Surely that's the same weight distribution as with its "without snow" balance? So the weight of the snow is acting against the signal wire's tension, rather than against its arm pivot?

Thanks @norbitonflyer and, yes, the Abbots Ripton accident I read about many moons ago - and it made me wonder why the North Eastern Railway's slotted signals lasted as long as they did.
I only saw ex-GNR somersaults once - whilst taking a pair of 20s to Skeg.

@Undiscovered genius! That made me laugh out loud. :D 8-)
 
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John Webb

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Before semaphore signals, the indications were given by railway policemen who held their arm out to indicate stop, but otherwise stand with his arm down by his side.
They also used flags - red for stop, green for 'go slow' - ie 'Caution' and white for 'All clear'
Early semaphore signals mimicked that by having an arm that extended horizontally for "stop", but fell to the vertical for clear - in many examples it fitted into a slot in the post, although the dangers with that arrangement were made clear after the Abbots Ripton disaster, when several signals got stuck in their slots because of snow. (It would also give a "false clear" if the arm was missing altogether. Hence the movement to have the arm at 45 degress for clear....
The original intention of the slotted post signals was to give the three degrees of warning - horizontal for 'stop'. 45deg for 'caution' and in the slot of the post for 'clear'.
although other designs existed such as the GNR "somersault", in which the pivot point is bracketed out from the post so that the arm can be seen when in the vertical position. (Picture)
4500681433_9be4610984_b.jpg

......
The GN Somersault signal was a direct response to the Abbot Ripton's crash. They did retain the slotted post signals, but only used them for 'two-aspect' signalling.
The other major factor of Abbot's Ripton was the adoption of 'Absolute Block' whereby all signal are kept at danger except when it is agreed a train is to proceed. Abbot's Ripton had been working 'Open Block' (Time separation) which meant the signals had been put to danger behind the previous train and then set to 'clear' after so many minutes after it had passed - this is what gave the weather the chance to freeze the signals at 'clear' rather than at 'danger'!
 

Annetts key

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An upper quadrant semaphore signal versus lower quadrant semaphore. What are the principle pros and cons of each?

All I can think of, is that an upper quadrant signal arm, if it is weighted by snow, will "fail-safe" dropping to show "danger".
Freshly fallen snow has little affect on signals due to the rather small surface area that it can settle on. Remember, how much the arm can move is limited because it's connected by a steel wire to the lever in the signal box. And this wire will be under tension regardless of which position the arm is in (otherwise it would droop in-between the wire run supports and lie on the ballast or the ground).

Problems may however occur with the pivot or other mechanical parts if there is a melt followed by a freeze and the signal is not operated very often.

In terms of design, lower quadrant types often have a weighted 'arm' or crank at the base to ensure that if the wire from the signal box breaks or is cut, the signal will return to danger due to gravity. See also this discussion.
 

furnessvale

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In terms of design, lower quadrant types often have a weighted 'arm' or crank at the base to ensure that if the wire from the signal box breaks or is cut, the signal will return to danger due to gravity. See also this discussion.
This is often said but the crank is still remote from the arm. Any failure in the linkage from crank to arm could theoretically result in a wrong side failure. With upper quadrant, the final failure is the arm dropping off, which would be noticeable.

All fairly academic now, in this age of LEDs and in cab signalling.
 

edwin_m

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If signal wire broke, I agree the "slacked" weight of lens-frame will pivot the lower quadrant signal arm back up to "danger".
But... if a snow layer covers top of both the arm and the lens-frame? Surely that's the same weight distribution as with its "without snow" balance? So the weight of the snow is acting against the signal wire's tension, rather than against its arm pivot?
Something like an ice storm might cause blown snow to freeze onto a vertical surface such as the face or back of the arm, in which case the lower quadrant would be more likely to fail.

However, there are precautions taken against the risk of the signal freezing "off". Following Abbots Ripton mentioned above, signals started to be cleared only when a train was expected rather than being kept showing "off" unless there was a train ahead. So they had less chance to freeze while clear. And the signaller is expected to check that the arms go back when replacing them after a train, either by directly observing the arm, lamp or backlight, or via an indicator for signals not visible from the box. If the arm didn't go back then this would need to be fixed before the next train was signalled through, or the next train could be cautioned at the previous signal box.
The original intention of the slotted post signals was to give the three degrees of warning - horizontal for 'stop'. 45deg for 'caution' and in the slot of the post for 'clear'.
And the first upper quadrant signals were also three-position, introduced to avoid confusion between the "caution" on one of these and the "clear" on a normal signal. These fell out of use quite quickly, after which people realised the upper quadrant was generally better and most railways adopted it. The GWR, as per usual, was the exception.
 

Annetts key

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This is often said but the crank is still remote from the arm. Any failure in the linkage from crank to arm could theoretically result in a wrong side failure. With upper quadrant, the final failure is the arm dropping off, which would be noticeable.

All fairly academic now, in this age of LEDs and in cab signalling.
The risk of the link between the semaphore signal arm and the weighted 'arm' or crank going wrong was much smaller than the risk of the wire run to the signal box becoming obstructed. The railway S&T (Signal & Telecom) Department was well aware of the risks, hence the signal mechanism as well as the wire runs were checked regularly.

When I was on a team working in a mechanical signal box area, there were some failures caused by wire runs being obstructed. The signaller would report that the signal showed "wrong". It's too long ago for me to remember the details though.
 

Dr Hoo

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I can assure people that upper quadrant signals can most definitely freeze at clear/off.

I learnt this the hard way after a box had been switched out (with signals clear, of course) over a weekend when there was heavy snow. One line became blocked (for reasons that are irrelevant to this thread) and it was necessary to implement single line working from the box. A relief signaller arrived, switched in and put the levers back to normal. Nothing happened. As the supervisor, putting in SLW for my very first time I had to grab the coal hammer and walk along all the wire runs and climb all the poles in the snow hitting everything that looked stuck. Eventually got them all back to danger. Then had the challenge of de-icing the crossover so that could actually be moved.

After SLW was withdrawn I collected and cancelled all the forms and sent them in with my report (routine practice). The following day I got a ‘Please Explain’ querying the “excessive amount of time to institute”.

Fantastic experience!
 

MarkyT

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The risk of the link between the semaphore signal arm and the weighted 'arm' or crank going wrong was much smaller than the risk of the wire run to the signal box becoming obstructed. The railway S&T (Signal & Telecom) Department was well aware of the risks, hence the signal mechanism as well as the wire runs were checked regularly.
Worth noting that in GWR and WR designs, the mechanical link up to the signal from the weighted arm at the base of the post where the wire is terminated, is a rod rather than a wire. One thing that helped preserve lower quadrants on the Western was a great reluctance to mix LQ and UQ arms at the same signalbox. Other railways and their successor regions seemed to have no compunction mixing them, at Shrewsbury and Banbury for example.
 

matchmaker

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Something like an ice storm might cause blown snow to freeze onto a vertical surface such as the face or back of the arm, in which case the lower quadrant would be more likely to fail.

However, there are precautions taken against the risk of the signal freezing "off". Following Abbots Ripton mentioned above, signals started to be cleared only when a train was expected rather than being kept showing "off" unless there was a train ahead. So they had less chance to freeze while clear. And the signaller is expected to check that the arms go back when replacing them after a train, either by directly observing the arm, lamp or backlight, or via an indicator for signals not visible from the box. If the arm didn't go back then this would need to be fixed before the next train was signalled through, or the next train could be cautioned at the previous signal box.

And the first upper quadrant signals were also three-position, introduced to avoid confusion between the "caution" on one of these and the "clear" on a normal signal. These fell out of use quite quickly, after which people realised the upper quadrant was generally better and most railways adopted it. The GWR, as per usual, was the exception.
One accident where a (lower quadrant) signal may have frozen in the "off" position was Castlecary on 10th December 1937. The drivers of both trains concerned - a Dundee-Glasgow and an Edinburgh-Glasgow - were convinced that the Castlecary down distant was clear, when it should not have been. Ultimately signalman Sneddon at Castlecary was held to be mainly to blame for the very serious accident, although the driver of the Edinburgh train was also criticised for driving at excess speed in the snowy conditions.
 

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Worth noting that in GWR and WR designs, the mechanical link up to the signal from the weighted arm at the base of the post where the wire is terminated, is a rod rather than a wire. One thing that helped preserve lower quadrants on the Western was a great reluctance to mix LQ and UQ arms at the same signalbox. Other railways and their successor regions seemed to have no compunction mixing them, at Shrewsbury and Banbury for example.
Kensington Olympia in the late 70s/early 80s was a right mix.

The only rule was that signals next to each other had to be the same quadrant if they could both be off at the same time.

So signals leading to the same trailing points could be (and were) one of each.
 

Ken X

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If you would permit a slight thread drift from a non railway engineer, I was listening to a radio play recently where the Victorian era railway was experiencing severe fog. A signaller nipped out and hung a tin bucket on the signal in the danger position. When the train arrived at the red signal, the crew listened until they heard the bucket hit the ground and then proceeded. Was this completely fictional or is there a grain of truth in there?
 

Bradford PA

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If you would permit a slight thread drift from a non railway engineer, I was listening to a radio play recently where the Victorian era railway was experiencing severe fog. A signaller nipped out and hung a tin bucket on the signal in the danger position. When the train arrived at the red signal, the crew listened until they heard the bucket hit the ground and then proceeded. Was this completely fictional or is there a grain of truth in there?
I have heard of flagmen, positioned at signals in poor visibility using such mechanical aids to ascertain that the signal that they were guarding had been pulled to off. They could not see upwards in the dark and might require the shelter of their adjacent cabin in bad weather, making it difficult for them to hear the movement of the signal.
 
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There have been places where a lower quadrant was retained after upper quadrants replaced them. Exeter Central Down Starter (under the platform canopy) and Milford (Surrey) Up Advanced Starter were both retained for sighting purposes. In the case of Milford there was an overbridge which limited visibility - a UQ arm would have disappeared when 'off'.
Pat
 

Sun Chariot

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If you would permit a slight thread drift from a non railway engineer, I was listening to a radio play recently where the Victorian era railway was experiencing severe fog. A signaller nipped out and hung a tin bucket on the signal in the danger position. When the train arrived at the red signal, the crew listened until they heard the bucket hit the ground and then proceeded. Was this completely fictional or is there a grain of truth in there?
I'll draw upon the excellent insight in posts 3 and 5:

If the signal went down for "clear", eg a bucket falls of, then it's most likely:
1) Great Northern Railway or North Eastern Railway.slotted,
2) Great Northern Railway somersault Home, or
3) Great Western Railway (or similar pre-Grouping Railway Company using a lower quadrant signalling infrastructure).

As the signal showed "danger", my guess is Absolute Block being used; and that was implemented in the UK following 1876's Abbots Ripton railway tragedy.
So assume 1 to 2 years hence to implement, so it dates the story between 1877 and 1901.

Weight of a tin bucket hung on the arm of a "lower quadrant" acting signal, potentially has enough weight to force a signal arm down as soon as, or shortly after, the bucket is hung on.

If the locomotive crew is close enough to hear the clatter of a falling tin bucket, my view is that a lit oil lamp behind a signal lens, would still just be visible to the locomotive crew. Add to the fact that the crew was able to see the preceding "caution" signal, slow the train and still stop it safely short of the Home "danger" signal in question, without relying on the sound of a bucket...

Just my tu'pennysworth.
 
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edwin_m

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I have heard of flagmen, positioned at signals in poor visibility using such mechanical aids to ascertain that the signal that they were guarding had been pulled to off. They could not see upwards in the dark and might require the shelter of their adjacent cabin in bad weather, making it difficult for them to hear the movement of the signal.
These definitely existed, known as fogsignalmen. They would be charged with putting detonators on the rails when the signal in question was at caution or danger, and removing them when it was cleared. Colour light signals were usually bright enough that they weren't needed, and they were no longer necessary once AWS provided an alternative means of alerting drivers to signals.
I'll draw upon the excellent insight in posts 3 and 5:

If the signal went down for "clear", eg bucket falls of it, then it's most likely:
1) Great Northern Railway or North Eastern Railway.slotted,
2) Great Northern Railway somersault Home, or
3) Great Western Railway (or similar pre-Grouping Railway Company using a lower quadrant signalling infrastructure).

As the signal showed "danger", my guess is Absolute Block being used; and that was implemented in the UK following 1876's Abbots Ripton railway tragedy.
So assume 1 to 2 years hence to implement, so it dates the story between 1877 and 1901.

Weight of a tin bucket hung on the arm of a "lower quadrant" acting signal, potentially has enough weight to force a signal arm down as soon as, or shortly after, the bucket is hung on.

If the locomotive crew is close enough to hear the clatter of a falling tin bucket, my view is that a lit oil lamp behind a signal lens, would still just be visible to the locomotive crew. Add to the fact that the crew was able to see the preceding "caution" signal, slow the train and still stop it safely short of the Home "danger" signal in question, without relying on the sound of a bucket...

Just my tu'pennysworth.
There's at least one accident report on Railways Archive where it is quoted that the fog was thick enough to make the signal itself not discernable from the bottom of its post. The lamp might be visible, but the beam through the spectacle plate is directed towards approaching trains and from below might be blinded out by any white light leaking directly downwards.

A hut would usually be provided for the fogsignalman (more like a sentry box really, probably with a brazier). Occasionally this would include repeater(s) for the relevant signal(s) but I don't think this was common. I'm thinking the bucket might have been put on or near the balance weight at the foot of the post not on the actual arm, so the fogsignalman would know when the signal was cleared and to remove their detonators without having to keep going outside the hut to check the signal.
 

John Webb

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If you would permit a slight thread drift from a non railway engineer, I was listening to a radio play recently where the Victorian era railway was experiencing severe fog. A signaller nipped out and hung a tin bucket on the signal in the danger position. When the train arrived at the red signal, the crew listened until they heard the bucket hit the ground and then proceeded. Was this completely fictional or is there a grain of truth in there?
There are certainly reports of train crew, rather than signalmen, hanging an (empty) bucket on the balance arm at the bottom of the post in thick fog to give them an alert when the signal was cleared. It was particularly used by freight train crews held in a goods loop where they were some distance from the signal box, I have read.
 

Sun Chariot

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There are certainly reports of train crew, rather than signalmen, hanging an (empty) bucket on the balance arm at the bottom of the post in thick fog to give them an alert when the signal was cleared. It was particularly used by freight train crews held in a goods loop where they were some distance from the signal box, I have read.
Thanks John - that sounds a far more practical (and easier and no doubt more effective) approach.

Thanks, everyone, for your fascinating and very informative insights - makes for enjoyable learning. :)
 

Ken X

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Many thanks to all for the feedback . I had forgotten that the signalman in question was also laying detonators in the play as mentioned above by edwin_m.

It didn't really say where on the mechanism the bucket was hung but it did make me think about it and the rest of the play was quite involved in railway procedure so I figured there may have been some truth in it.

Interesting times :)
 

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Upper quadrant signals can kill, in a way lower quadrant ones can't!

See the film 'The Ladykillers'.
 

Gloster

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I have to say that I very much doubt that a signalman would hang a bucket on the signal. If it is thick fog he has got to leave the box, find the signal and then find his way back; if the signal is some way away this may take quite a time and if it is close he may be able to shout. He also risks losing a bucket or suffering an accident. Anyway, drivers can look out for themselves.
 

edwin_m

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I have to say that I very much doubt that a signalman would hang a bucket on the signal. If it is thick fog he has got to leave the box, find the signal and then find his way back; if the signal is some way away this may take quite a time and if it is close he may be able to shout. He also risks losing a bucket or suffering an accident. Anyway, drivers can look out for themselves.
I suggested it was a fogsignalman. As well as the points you make, an actual signalman would be controlling the signal, so have no need of a bucket to know what the it was showing.
 

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I suggested it was a fogsignalman. As well as the points you make, an actual signalman would be controlling the signal, so have no need of a bucket to know what the it was showing.

What I meant was that a signalman had enough to do anyway without doing favours for drivers. I do agree that it was both fogsignalmen and, less often, drivers who used a bucket.
 
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