Potential South London improvement ideas?

[cle]

There are many jobs in and around Victoria. It’s also quicker for inner West London (Chelsea, Hammersmith) which people may need to access.

Equally Cannon St is also extremely close to many jobs and institutions. And as said, everything calls at London Bridge so all options are covered.

Cut the cords, and water will find the sea! Same as the Northern line. Far better to offer frequency (= freedom, as ofte said) than choice

 

[Brubulus]

I know it's an insane idea, but it would be possible to create a " Thameslink South" by demolishing much of Waterloo's facade and running trains through from Waterloo East, which would enable up to 30 or so trains per hour to run through Waterloo and provide both frequency and a choice of termini, with links to Clapham Junction.

This would likely be impossible in the current climate due to the heritage considerations of running 4 tracks through Waterloo.

 

[Tester]

I know it's an insane idea, but it would be possible to create a " Thameslink South" by demolishing much of Waterloo's facade and running trains through from Waterloo East, which would enable up to 30 or so trains per hour to run through Waterloo and provide both frequency and a choice of termini, with links to Clapham Junction.

This would likely be impossible in the current climate due to the heritage considerations of running 4 tracks through Waterloo.

Well it was done before!

 

[30907]

Well it was done before!

Do you mean the connecting line that was virtually never used before being got rid of as part of rebuilding Waterloo? If so, not a promising precedent

 

[NorthKent1989]

I always thought a underground tunnel linking London Bridge, Cannon Street, Blackfriars, Charing Cross, Waterloo then loop back to London Bridge would be nifty, you could then have a triangle junction to allow trains from SW to use the northern or southern half of the loop and have outer suburban services from each SE and SW linked up like Reading to Medway or Windsor to Gravesend.

This is of course fantasy.

 

[Tester]

Do you mean the connecting line that was virtually never used before being got rid of as part of rebuilding Waterloo? If so, not a promising precedent

Yes that's the one

Not a promising precedent in the slightest - but interesting nonetheless!

 

[ScotGG]

One of the great problems in many of the areas mentioned in this thread is that there's massive residential development around many stations but little associated funding is ever used to improve stations and infrastructure. There's a lack of holistic thinking and funding which seems worse than in tfl areas. Network Rail isn't really set up to work that way and liaise with developers and local authorities and the greater London authority unlike tfl.

 

[stssts1985]

Equally Cannon St is also extremely close to many jobs and institutions. And as said, everything calls at London Bridge so all options are covered.

I always thought Cannon Street could be connected to Bank station via a tunnel and moving walkway - whilst you don't gain much for the district/circle nor WL&C or even the northern line as that is at London Bridge. However might be easier than platform to tube via London Bridge. However, more connection to the DLR and central would make Cannon Street feel a little better connected for those not going to the square mile.

More pie in the sky, a new cross London rail line connected Cannon Street to the Northern City line at Moorgate. You'd have to run the through trains over the road until it could head underground. A new through railway - maybe called the Meridian Line?


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I'd also connect the Lea Valley Lines to the the Southwestern suburban/outer suburban from Waterloo using the WL&C Infrastructure which passes directly under Blackfriars for connection to Thameslink, Bank for connection to my fictitious Meridian line at Cannon Street and Liverpool Street for connection to the the Elizabeth line. A network of 4 cross-city lines RER vibe

And that friends is how you spend billions of pounds from the comfort of your armchair lol

 

[NorthKent1989]

I always thought Cannon Street could be connected to Bank station via a tunnel and moving walkway - whilst you don't gain much for the district/circle nor WL&C or even the northern line as that is at London Bridge. However might be easier than platform to tube via London Bridge. However, more connection to the DLR and central would make Cannon Street feel a little better connected for those not going to the square mile.

Bank can be reached via DLR from Lewisham, Greenwich and Woolwich.

 

[stssts1985]

Bank can be reached via DLR from Lewisham, Greenwich and Woolwich.

Yes, but if you weren't coming from those 3 stations (and the Greenwich line is spoilt for choice - for TFL fare stricture,) say Charlton, but if you wanted onward connection from Bank doing it from Cannon Street would mean 1 change rather than 2 - say Maze Hill to Chancery Lane would be 1 change rather than 2

 

[londonteacher]

I always thought Cannon Street could be connected to Bank station via a tunnel and moving walkway - whilst you don't gain much for the district/circle nor WL&C or even the northern line as that is at London Bridge. However might be easier than platform to tube via London Bridge. However, more connection to the DLR and central would make Cannon Street feel a little better connected for those not going to the square mile.

Or you could get your train to Cannon Street and then walk 2 minutes up Cannon Street to the new Bank Tube Station entrance.

 

[NorthKent1989]

Yes, but if you weren't coming from those 3 stations (and the Greenwich line is spoilt for choice - for TFL fare stricture,) say Charlton, but if you wanted onward connection from Bank doing it from Cannon Street would mean 1 change rather than 2 - say Maze Hill to Chancery Lane would be 1 change rather than 2

Might be useful for Charlton customers which is in between the vast TfL connections but east of there people can just change at Woolwich Arsenal for the DLR

 

[stssts1985]

Or you could get your train to Cannon Street and then walk 2 minutes up Cannon Street to the new Bank Tube Station entrance.

I agree but I think the perception is different when you don't cross a road of a simpler transfer! Anything to make the feel of Cannon Street a little more connected!

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 12 Oct 2025 ==

Might be useful for Charlton customers which is in between the vast TfL connections but east of there people can just change at Woolwich Arsenal for the DLR

But why is it such a problem that Greenwich line trains go to Cannon Street? If, there is no reason to have the Greenwich line trains at all?

 

[londonteacher]

I agree but I think the perception is different when you don't cross a road of a simpler transfer! Anything to make the feel of Cannon Street a little more connected!

Yes, but that is about mindset. It is a fairly quiet road without any proper issues crossing at either a crossing or at any point. The cost of connecting the two stations will be really high and as such will never be recouped, so it should not even be considered.

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But why is it such a problem that Greenwich line trains go to Cannon Street?

it is not. As has been pointed out, it is a simple change at London Bridge from all stations on the line, or change at Blackheath if you are boarding at stations between Charlton and Slade Green for services to Cannon Street, Victoria or Charing Cross. It is not hard at all. Not every station needs services to everywhere.

 

[frankmoh]

I know it's an insane idea, but it would be possible to create a " Thameslink South" by demolishing much of Waterloo's facade and running trains through from Waterloo East, which would enable up to 30 or so trains per hour to run through Waterloo and provide both frequency and a choice of termini, with links to Clapham Junction.

This would likely be impossible in the current climate due to the heritage considerations of running 4 tracks through Waterloo.

I'm having a hard time picturing this. Are you saying that SE's current trains to Waterloo East would be routed onto Southwestern's stuff? A diagram would be handy.

 

[stssts1985]

is not. As has been pointed out, it is a simple change at London Bridge from all stations on the line, or change at Blackheath if you are boarding at stations between Charlton and Slade Green for services to Cannon Street, Victoria or Charing Cross. It is not hard at all. Not every station needs services to everywhere.

Yes i agree! If were ever going to make the tangled web of lines in the south function as a network of urban metro lines as opposed to a commuter railway to take people into the city on the morning and home in the evening, having simple straightforward high frequency lines with metro style calling points that are always the same. If people can't handle changing at London bridge or elsewhere you'll keep this mess we have with odd intervals between trains and mixed terminals! People don't expect the tube to go to every branch.

 

[Bald Rick]

I know it's an insane idea, but it would be possible to create a " Thameslink South" by demolishing much of Waterloo's facade and running trains through from Waterloo East, which would enable up to 30 or so trains per hour to run through Waterloo and provide both frequency and a choice of termini, with links to Clapham Junction.

There was a crayony proposal about this years ago, it even got as far as someone doing a mock up in an art package. They clearly hadn’t thought about it very much. Leaving aside the physical issues (expensive land take etc), on a service level it needs some very difficult choices:

1) closure of Charing Cross Y/N? (and if yes, what are the 20million or so passengers going to do?)
2) which service groups from Waterloo would go through, and which should match the service groups currently serving Charing Cross?
3) on the basis that there are many more trains per hour on the main / main suburban side of Waterloo than capacity from Waterloo East to London Bridge, that implies some will have to terminate at Waterloo. To make that happen with some services running through snd some services terminating will need grade separation on the Waterloo approaches, and at least one extra pair of tracks from the grade separation to Waterloo.

Best wishes!

More pie in the sky, a new cross London rail line connected Cannon Street to the Northern City line at Moorgate. You'd have to run the through trains over the road until it could head underground. A new through railway - maybe called the Meridian Line?

Not physically possible in any practical sense. The Eizabeth Line, Bank of England vaults, and much else besides are in the way.


And on that, with a very round number of posts, I’ll have a little break.

 

[stssts1985]

Not physically possible in any practical sense. The Eizabeth Line, Bank of England vaults, and much else besides are in the way.

The Elizabeth line was possible and the northern city line already exists. Not sure about the bank

 

[NorthKent1989]

But why is it such a problem that Greenwich line trains go to Cannon Street? If, there is no reason to have the Greenwich line trains at all?

Greenwich has unfortunately been cut off from CHX thanks to the Thameslink works, but let’s be honest Cannon Street isn’t a hub, it’s a peak hour station at best, even the Bank/CST interchange is redundant, when the DLR takes you to Bank, aside from Liverpool Street which backs onto Bishopsgate/Shoreditch, The City is largely dead

Yes i agree! If were ever going to make the tangled web of lines in the south function as a network of urban metro lines as opposed to a commuter railway to take people into the city on the morning and home in the evening, having simple straightforward high frequency lines with metro style calling points that are always the same. If people can't handle changing at London bridge or elsewhere you'll keep this mess we have with odd intervals between trains and mixed terminals! People don't expect the tube to go to every branch.

I don’t recall it being a mess before mid 2010s, I think you’re underestimating SE London commuters understanding, it’s a mess now because SE are running the suburban network into the ground and are losing passengers.


Again you cannot compare a mainline railway with a underground metro line most deep level lines are 20+ tph with a 60-90 second wait, the Victoria line in the peak has 36tph, no amount of route simplification will ever achieve this.

The Dartford routes are a mix of inner suburban and outer suburban services with mix calling patterns, the closest comparison to a tube line is the Metropolitan line which was built as a suburban line and is still largely that in nature.

it is not. As has been pointed out, it is a simple change at London Bridge from all stations on the line, or change at Blackheath if you are boarding at stations between Charlton and Slade Green for services to Cannon Street, Victoria or Charing Cross. It is not hard at all. Not every station needs services to everywhere.

Maybe not, but changing trains can be time dependent and shouldn’t be used as a solution in every case

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Waterloo's W&C line platform? But that's irrelevant because Bank has barriers.

Oh yes! They do have oyster pads instead of standard barriers

 

[TrenHotel]

Maybe not, but changing trains can be time dependent and shouldn’t be used as a solution in every case

Indeed, the biggest single problem with the cuts to SE services is that the need to change at London Bridge remains - even the Charing Cross trains from London Bridge can have some relatively long gaps at odd times like early mornings that you might not be banking on. And that's before you get to long gaps between trains to Greenwich or Woolwich.

Some of this would be made easier if the separate TfL and NR fare scales were abolished, doing away with the penalty for switching modes, meaning Cannon Street-Bank would be a more appealing interchange.

 

[stssts1985]

don’t recall it being a mess before mid 2010s, I think you’re underestimating SE London commuters understanding, it’s a mess now because SE are running the suburban network into the ground and are losing passengers.

he issue isn’t about whether south east london commuters understand their journeys – obviously they do. the problem is the system itself is only really designed around that one use case: people going into central london in the morning and back out again at night. it doesn’t work well as an urban transport network for all the other types of journeys people want to make.

the south london lines actually have the bones of a metro – lots of stations, short gaps between stops, and lines covering a big chunk of the city – but they’re run like regional railways. the stopping patterns are messy, the service intervals are too long, and the connections don’t join up properly. it’s fine if you do the same route every day, but for anything else it’s confusing and uninviting.

if you try something simple like going from brixton to lewisham or tulse hill to greenwich, it’s way harder than it should be. trains are infrequent, interchanges are awkward, and the whole setup feels built for the 9-to-5 crowd, not for people who just want to move around south london easily.

the overground showed what happens when you fix that. the east and north london lines were once just as tangled and underused, but when they were simplified, joined up and given reliable all-day frequencies, they suddenly became proper urban routes that people used for all kinds of trips. that’s what south london needs.

nobody’s saying the dartford lines should run 36 trains an hour like the victoria line – that’s missing the point. it’s about changing the purpose of the network: stop treating it as a suburban commuter system and start running it as a high-frequency, easy-to-understand metro network. make the routes simpler, increase base frequencies between key hubs, improve interchanges, and keep consistent patterns all day.

that’s how you turn it from a confusing commuter tangle into something people can actually use flexibly across the day, not just to get to work.

 

[Sonic1234]

Some of this would be made easier if the separate TfL and NR fare scales were abolished, doing away with the penalty for switching modes, meaning Cannon Street-Bank would be a more appealing interchange.

I agree, but practically how many people know about (and consider) TfL-scale, NR-scale and mixed mode? Maybe slightly more for commuters, but I expect among leisure travellers the knowledge of this is virtually zero. It's tap the magic card and off you go.

I've always thought the real aim of contactless ticketing is to obfuscate the fares, and separate the act of travel from paying for travel. The real motivation behind Project Oval I'd expect.

 

[Brubulus]

My idea would be to demolish the old International building and divert everything from the Waterloo-Reading line towards Waterloo East. I'd also close Charing Cross and convert Hungerford Bridge into Garden Bridge.

Just converting the Reading lines would mean there would be no grade separation on the Waterloo approach.

I also know it's probably unfeasible.

 

[Mr. SW]

Many years ago I tried something similar with a line starting in tunnel somewhere near St Johns, Calling at New Cross Gate, Old Kent Road, Elephant and Castle, before curving south to Vauxhall, Battersea Park and rising and emerging to make a junction with the Windsor Lines just east of Putney with a branch turning south to rise just to the north of Earlsfield. This would connect the North Kent Loop Lines to the Hounslow and Kingston loops and Shepperton. This was to be operated on a automatic basis through the tunnel.

Then they built the Battersea Power Station extension, Crossrail 2 was locked in and the Bakerloo extension was proposed. In fact the proposed Burgess Park and Old Kent Road stations are almost bang on top of my crayonic scribbles. And even the names are the same.

On a more serious note, a lot of "Southern Crossrail" is covered by the South London Line. so you could have a service coming off at Lewisham, calling at Nunhead, Peckham Rye, Denmark Hill, Clapham High Street, Wandsworth Road and Clapham Junction and maybe beyond. But this would involve an awful lot of expensive fiddling about to create new traffic centres etc., and there could be serious knock-on effects on other lines and services such as the Overground.

 

[frankmoh]

he issue isn’t about whether south east london commuters understand their journeys – obviously they do. the problem is the system itself is only really designed around that one use case: people going into central london in the morning and back out again at night. it doesn’t work well as an urban transport network for all the other types of journeys people want to make.

the south london lines actually have the bones of a metro – lots of stations, short gaps between stops, and lines covering a big chunk of the city – but they’re run like regional railways. the stopping patterns are messy, the service intervals are too long, and the connections don’t join up properly. it’s fine if you do the same route every day, but for anything else it’s confusing and uninviting.

if you try something simple like going from brixton to lewisham or tulse hill to greenwich, it’s way harder than it should be. trains are infrequent, interchanges are awkward, and the whole setup feels built for the 9-to-5 crowd, not for people who just want to move around south london easily.

the overground showed what happens when you fix that. the east and north london lines were once just as tangled and underused, but when they were simplified, joined up and given reliable all-day frequencies, they suddenly became proper urban routes that people used for all kinds of trips. that’s what south london needs.

nobody’s saying the dartford lines should run 36 trains an hour like the victoria line – that’s missing the point. it’s about changing the purpose of the network: stop treating it as a suburban commuter system and start running it as a high-frequency, easy-to-understand metro network. make the routes simpler, increase base frequencies between key hubs, improve interchanges, and keep consistent patterns all day.

that’s how you turn it from a confusing commuter tangle into something people can actually use flexibly across the day, not just to get to work.

On the Bromley side of Southeastern's metro services, (Orpington-Victoria and Hayes-Charing Cross) it actually runs like a metro. A consistent 4tph is achieved, even with the Chatham Main Line's bottleneck at Beckenham Junction. Why the "North Kent" side of the network has fallen behind is bizarre to me. Especially as a Hayes Line user, all the talk of SE having terrible service has made no sense to me in the past because I only saw "my" line and its good service.

I see why the Hayes Line is getting touted for conversion to LU but I just hope they don't terminate trains early like the northern end of the Bakerloo.

 

[NorthKent1989]

Indeed, the biggest single problem with the cuts to SE services is that the need to change at London Bridge remains - even the Charing Cross trains from London Bridge can have some relatively long gaps at odd times like early mornings that you might not be banking on. And that's before you get to long gaps between trains to Greenwich or Woolwich.

I’ve also had to let many a packed Charing Cross train go because no more passengers can fit.

The gaps between Charlton & Slade Green aren’t as bad as between Deptford & Westcombe, since we have trains that run via Blackheath, but when thameslink fails the gaps are too uneven.

the south london lines actually have the bones of a metro – lots of stations, short gaps between stops, and lines covering a big chunk of the city – but they’re run like regional railways. the stopping patterns are messy, the service intervals are too long, and the connections don’t join up properly. it’s fine if you do the same route every day, but for anything else it’s confusing and uninviting.

The Dartford routes not so much, there are still outer suburban services which is why I compared them to the Metropolitan line, but if Thameslink weren’t the issue then how you could separate the outer suburban services from the inner could be that you reinstate the old semi fast via Blackheath & Woolwich and the Sidcup line service to Gravesend being fast from LB to New Eltham and extended to Medway so there’s 4tph between Medway and Dartford, then the Dartford terminators and loop services could then be metroised and have 4-6tph on each line

 

[stssts1985]

The Dartford routes not so much, there are still outer suburban services which is why I compared them to the Metropolitan line, but if Thameslink weren’t the issue then how you could separate the outer suburban services from the inner could be that you reinstate the old semi fast via Blackheath & Woolwich and the Sidcup line service to Gravesend being fast from LB to New Eltham and extended to Medway so there’s 4tph between Medway and Dartford, then the Dartford terminators and loop services could then be metroised and have 4-6tph on each line

I think if you kept the metro services 4tph you could fit the outer-surburban in-between. If you had an easy facing bay at Abbey Wood could you also run a 3rd and 4th tph out to Medway with.a genuine interval of 15 mins?The whole thing is complicated by the thameslink and your importing disruptions from the wider GTR. Thameslink has become so hopeless for cancellations up to 12% recently at TulseHill. For outside London the New Eltham fasts were a good thing. Do you think many people from Medway use via Dartford routes given the LC&D and HS1 choices?

I hadn't really thought in practice that you'd have to let charring cross trains go because of crowding - if im right the 2 tracks for charring cross are not on the same physical platform at LBR Running to the next one via the escalators would not be quick at peak time

 

[TrenHotel]

I agree, but practically how many people know about (and consider) TfL-scale, NR-scale and mixed mode? Maybe slightly more for commuters, but I expect among leisure travellers the knowledge of this is virtually zero. It's tap the magic card and off you go.

I've always thought the real aim of contactless ticketing is to obfuscate the fares, and separate the act of travel from paying for travel. The real motivation behind Project Oval I'd expect.

That's a fair point - I'm struck by the number of people who live in deepest zone 3 who are very happy to take a bus to Woolwich then pay a zone 1-4 fare for the Elizabeth Line. But ultimately (and this goes beyond the south London networks) unifying the fare structure and doing away with the mixed-mode fare would be a positive move in terms of perception.

if you try something simple like going from brixton to lewisham or tulse hill to greenwich, it’s way harder than it should be. trains are infrequent, interchanges are awkward, and the whole setup feels built for the 9-to-5 crowd, not for people who just want to move around south london easily.

the overground showed what happens when you fix that. the east and north london lines were once just as tangled and underused, but when they were simplified, joined up and given reliable all-day frequencies, they suddenly became proper urban routes that people used for all kinds of trips. that’s what south london needs.

nobody’s saying the dartford lines should run 36 trains an hour like the victoria line – that’s missing the point. it’s about changing the purpose of the network: stop treating it as a suburban commuter system and start running it as a high-frequency, easy-to-understand metro network. make the routes simpler, increase base frequencies between key hubs, improve interchanges, and keep consistent patterns all day.

that’s how you turn it from a confusing commuter tangle into something people can actually use flexibly across the day, not just to get to work.

This hits the nail on the head. The current south London networks don't even fit in with wider objectives: councils are trying to cut car use but the DfT cuts train services, new homes are springing up along the lines yet the rail service isn't adapting to cope.

You can see the disregard for the Dartford lines in the evenings, with unstaffed stations making it into a network that is free to ride but does not feel particularly safe.

 

[NorthKent1989]

I think if you kept the metro services 4tph you could fit the outer-surburban in-between. If you had an easy facing bay at Abbey Wood could you also run a 3rd and 4th tph out to Medway with.a genuine interval of 15 mins?The whole thing is complicated by the thameslink and your importing disruptions from the wider GTR. Thameslink has become so hopeless for cancellations up to 12% recently at TulseHill. For outside London the New Eltham fasts were a good thing. Do you think many people from Medway use via Dartford routes given the LC&D and HS1 choices?

I hadn't really thought in practice that you'd have to let charring cross trains go because of crowding - if im right the 2 tracks for charring cross are not on the same physical platform at LBR Running to the next one via the escalators would not be quick at peak time

Medway does use HS1 more admittedly, but the Bromley route is still popular, more so since the Woolwich line became a Thameslink slow service, but I think 4tph from Medway to Dartford could work, and with 2tph to the Sidcup line and 2tph to the Woolwich/Blackheath line you open up more of SE London to Medway, SE London is no longer the backwater it once was, it’s been rapidly growing since the 2010s

Also HS1 is premium so while it’s faster I can see a cheaper option being popular too.

HS1 is good for reaching the Docklands and Kings X/St Pancras which is now a hub in its own right, likewise Victoria trains are useful
For Chelsea, the parks and Battersea Powet Station, so running more trains into SE London would serve another purpose.

Metro services would be curtailed at Dartford and the Loops but 2tph from the Greenwich line to Gravesend for additional Crossrail connectivity wouldn’t hurt.

Yes letting CHX trains go in the peaks was one of the reasons why I gave up on SE it was delaying me more than the trains itself, plus the CST train from Woolwich via Blackheath is so tedious at time picking up air at St John’s and even on occasions New Cross, as they seem to prefer the ELL then change at Whitechapel for the EL

 

[JonathanH]

But ultimately (and this goes beyond the south London networks) unifying the fare structure and doing away with the mixed-mode fare would be a positive move in terms of perception.

The mixed-mode premium isn't going away. Whilst no one likes it, it isn't a political imperative for anyone, and the funding to remove it isn't available whilst the DfT subsidy to the Railway is at its current level. Clearly it has been exaggerated by the freeze on the fares that TfL set directly, which hasn't been replicated on the DfT set fares.

In practice, the daily cap offsets most of its damage in any case, and it successfully stops users making short hops on the underground network from the southern terminals.