Safety aspects of overcrowded trains

[Roy1234]

I was recently told by a TOC that there are no applicable limits on overcrowding. This was a surprise, as buses have clearly marked sitting & standing limits but reach nowhere near a commuter train's speeds. Without wishing to reopen that discussion on the absence of any clear limit, I wonder if anyone could clarify whether issues of safety etc still apply to overcrowded trains? e.g. That the guard/driver are prevented from quickly dealing with any emergency along the packed carriages if movement is painfully slow?

I am aware of one operator actually lying to get passengers off, on many occasions, before leaving the station. They have admitted doing so in writing to a commuter friend who complained. I have also heard chuntering between train & platform staff when a swarm of passengers greeted a small train, as if this was a work issue, not just an inconvenience they could step back and watch.

So are train/platform staff more liable than the TOC's 'no regulations on overcrowding' statement suggests?

 

[90019]

I was recently told by a TOC that there are no applicable limits on overcrowding. This was a surprise, as buses have clearly marked sitting & standing limits but reach nowhere near a commuter train's speeds.

The limits on buses are to do with the maximum gross weight of the vehicle rather than space or speed, which is why you'll sometimes see single deck buses with capacities that it would be almost impossible to achieve.

 

[Roy1234]

The limits on buses are to do with the maximum gross weight of the vehicle rather than space or speed, which is why you'll sometimes see single deck buses with capacities that it would be almost impossible to achieve.

Thanks, well that explains the bus part.

 

[Spartacus]

I'm sure i remember a study which showed you're probably better off in an overcrowded train in most accident circumstances than a quiet one as most injuries will be from movement within the carriage either of passengers or things like luggage. More people, less space to move around, less damage from any impacts. This factors in that serious rail accidents are very rare in comparison with road accidents, and when they do occur that crash-worthiness standards means there's less material damage to a carriage than a bus, and those were the standards in existence possible 20 years ago. Public perceptions are another thing entirely, greatly inflating the actual risks of travelling on a crowded train, and deflating those of travelling on a crowded bus.

As 90019 says above, bus limits are often based on weight rather than actual capacity, so like lifts you can sometimes have a situation where, unless you have a battalion of Posh Spices trying to get on, you'd never realistically get that number on board. A train isn't going to have weight issues.

Where crowding can be an issue for staff is when it prevents them doing vital duties. No so much the 'getting down the train if there's an emergency' what-ifs or things like ticket checks, but the basics, like getting on, getting to and from the cab and door controls, or shutting the doors without some part of someone's body or luggage getting stuck. If the crew can't do that the train won't move, so someone's going to have to get off for the greater good as it were.

 

[NCT]

You can only deal with / you have to deal with what you can physically achieve.

Trains are designed to carry more than the weight of passengers.

From a crowd management perspective, it's better to allow passengers to cram themselves on than routinely turn people away especially on metro operations. On longer distance flows I certainly wouldn't want to see draconian compulsory reservation practices.

 

[Roy1234]

Where crowding can be an issue for staff is when it prevents them doing vital duties. No so much the 'getting down the train if there's an emergency' what-ifs or things like ticket checks, but the basics, like getting on, getting to and from the cab and door controls, or shutting the doors without some part of someone's body or luggage getting stuck. If the crew can't do that the train won't move, so someone's going to have to get off for the greater good as it were.

So you're saying it's door opening/closing that might make them take action, but otherwise nothing?

 

[NCT]

So you're saying it's door opening/closing that might make them take action, but otherwise nothing?

And the more effective way of dealing with that particular friction is DOO.

 

[sh24]

I’ve seen Avanti refuse to go forward until the passenger load is removed. What’s their reason? Weight limits and the Pendolino tilt system?

 

[Peter Mugridge]

I’ve seen Avanti refuse to go forward until the passenger load is removed. What’s their reason? Weight limits and the Pendolino tilt system?

Yes, there's a weight limit with the tilting mechanism beyond which it cannot operate correctly.

 

[zwk500]

Yes, there's a weight limit with the tilting mechanism beyond which it cannot operate correctly.

Although AIUI if the tilt is inoperative it is possible for the train to continue, just limited to the non EPS speed limits (i.e. 110mph).

 

[hexagon789]

I’ve seen Avanti refuse to go forward until the passenger load is removed. What’s their reason? Weight limits and the Pendolino tilt system?

Tilt locks out if a certain weight threshold is exceeded.

So the train would run slower and lose time, which they do accept and put up with sometimes.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 12 Oct 2025 ==

Although AIUI if the tilt is inoperative it is possible for the train to continue, just limited to the non EPS speed limits (i.e. 110mph).

Correct, the service just loses time on the schedule.

 

[amahy]

In my opinion, the rail industry can be very double standards to do with safety, a prime example being with Cross Country, where according to the RMT, it is safer to have a crush loaded single voyager, than a double voyager with plenty of space, but no train manager in one of the units.....

 

[Tester]

This is another of those discussions where you must be careful what you wish for.

How would you enforce any capacity limit? An army of platform staff? Compulsory reservations?

Anything that diverts rail passengers to the roads reduces safety overall (although this isn't a popular conversation).

 

[Bletchleyite]

In my opinion, the rail industry can be very double standards to do with safety, a prime example being with Cross Country, where according to the RMT, it is safer to have a crush loaded single voyager, than a double voyager with plenty of space, but no train manager in one of the units.....

There probably isn't much difference.

 

[Hairyspotter]

In my opinion, the rail industry can be very double standards to do with safety, a prime example being with Cross Country, where according to the RMT, it is safer to have a crush loaded single voyager, than a double voyager with plenty of space, but no train manager in one of the units.....

The reason for that is because there needs to be a competent person present in the second set to attend to any calls for aid, which do not sound in the driving cab when operated.

 

[Jimini]

There probably isn't much difference.

...between a 4 or 5 car train and a 8-10 car one?

 

[3141]

London Underground trains can routinely become very crowded. It may be uncomfortable for some passengers, and it may make getting out at your stop difficult, but it's been the situation for decades and regular users accept that that's how things are.

When I travelled to school by tube in the 1950s, the front two or three cars on the Central Line between Holborn and Chancery Lane could be really packed. Some people claimed to have lifted their feet off the floor and remained wedged in place by the people around them. Probably exaggerated.

If you were to try to limit the number of passengers on board in circumstances like that, the time involved in hauling excess people off, the number of staff required to do it, and the effects on the next few services, would be interesting to say the least.

Many people on here will have seen videos of metro services in Japan and elsewhere showing the staff whose job it is to push people onto the trains to get them as full as possible.

If a guard can't get through a train to check tickets, that's not the end of the world, especially as it's not unknown for checks not to take place when a train isn't crowded.

What if the guard cannot get through in an emergency? Not a big issue, partly because a substantial number of services don't have a guard. And how many times does a guard need to get through anyway, compared with the regular inconvenience to hundreds of passengers if a limit was placed on the number allowed to be on board?

 

[Adam Williams]

It's all well and good not caring about the extent of overcrowding in general .. until something goes wrong (e.g. the train ends up without traction current). I suspect the passengers will be much less keen to stay on-board under those sorts of conditions for extended periods of time (particularly on stock that isn't fit-for-purpose, and lacks e.g. air conditioning in the first place) than if there was sufficient capacity. What that will ultimately lead to is dangerous self-evacs after comparatively short time periods.

 

[Tester]

It's all well and good not caring about the extent of overcrowding in general .. until something goes wrong (e.g. the train ends up without traction current). I suspect the passengers will be much less keen to stay on-board under those sorts of conditions for extended periods of time (particularly on stock that isn't fit-for-purpose, and lacks e.g. air conditioning in the first place) than if there was sufficient capacity. What that will ultimately lead to is dangerous self-evacs after comparatively short time periods.

Yes indeed, but what is the fix?

Currently people have the option to decide that a given train is unacceptably full for them. Making that decision for them (and for those who haven't made that decision) is a can of worms.

Once again - moving excess passengers from rail to road is an overall reduction in safety.

 

[45Fox]

Ah! Overcrowding, particularly relevant at the weekend when (as per usual) XC seem to have their entire fleet of 2 car 170s out and about.

I've refused to take trains in the last couple of years exactly because of this.
The criteria that a lot of CrossCountry crews (certainly on 170s) apply is if they can't physically get out of the cab, either front or rear, into the saloon then the train is overcrowded. In the event of an incident/accident access into the train is essential.

 

[Yorkshire09876]

I suspect the passengers will be much less keen to stay on-board under those sorts of conditions for extended periods of time (particularly on stock that isn't fit-for-purpose, and lacks e.g. air conditioning in the first place)

More likely to be an issue on stock which is air conditioned as that mostly lacks opening windows. The 80x have an engine to power the aircon in these circumstances, but in this they are unusual and nothing else has similar provision.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 12 Oct 2025 ==

The reason for that is because there needs to be a competent person present in the second set to attend to any calls for aid, which do not sound in the driving cab when operated.

In which case, surely the sensible options are to either modify the units so that it does sound in the cab, or make sure they have enough staff? Having one unit locked out while the other one is rammed is really not a good look, and 'because the railways seemingly can't sort out relatively minor operational issues' is not a good enough excuse.

 

[Bletchleyite]

...between a 4 or 5 car train and a 8-10 car one?

There is probably not much difference in safety between an overcrowded train and a nearly empty one, whatever its length. Trains are not aircraft, so speed of evacuation and the likes is less relevant (indeed, more people* have probably been killed by evacuating trains too quickly and walking into the path of an other, not failure to do so when an evacuation had been called for). It's unpleasant, sure, but it's not unsafe.

* Aside from multi train collisions where a third one went into the wreckage of two already collided, I suspect.

 

[chris_in_salop]

Yes indeed, but what is the fix?

Longer trains?

 

[Tester]

Longer trains?

Phew - sorted!

 

[swt_passenger]

There’s been a couple of recent threads on related topics, to save probable duplication …
Train seatbelts:

Why do trains not have seat belts? (overheard question)

I was on a train earlier and a little girl asked her Dad why there were no seat belts, and he told her that he didn't actually know. That got me wondering, why don't any passenger trains have seat belts? Some buses and coaches do (although I understand that's more for school workings) but why...

www.railforums.co.uk

Train standing capacity:

Where do I find the standing & seating capacities of different units?

I am working on something with the new Gemini consist data that is being published on the RDM - it gives the class and formation of trains that are running including the seating capacity. I have not yet seen standing capacity on any legs, but have just started looking at this. I want to be able...

www.railforums.co.uk

 

[Tester]

There’s been a couple of recent threads on related topics, to save probable duplication …
Train seatbelts:

Why do trains not have seat belts? (overheard question)

I was on a train earlier and a little girl asked her Dad why there were no seat belts, and he told her that he didn't actually know. That got me wondering, why don't any passenger trains have seat belts? Some buses and coaches do (although I understand that's more for school workings) but why...

www.railforums.co.uk

Train standing capacity:

Where do I find the standing & seating capacities of different units?

I am working on something with the new Gemini consist data that is being published on the RDM - it gives the class and formation of trains that are running including the seating capacity. I have not yet seen standing capacity on any legs, but have just started looking at this. I want to be able...

www.railforums.co.uk

And they all circle back to the same problem!

We have to work with the railway we have - not the railway we want.

In the meantime, any demand the railway does not satisfy is likely to worsen conditions on the roads, with a consequent reduction in overall safety.

Are we actually bothered about overall safety, or just some types of safety?

 

[deltic]

London Underground trains can routinely become very crowded. It may be uncomfortable for some passengers, and it may make getting out at your stop difficult, but it's been the situation for decades and regular users accept that that's how things are.

When I travelled to school by tube in the 1950s, the front two or three cars on the Central Line between Holborn and Chancery Lane could be really packed. Some people claimed to have lifted their feet off the floor and remained wedged in place by the people around them. Probably exaggerated.

Back in the 1980s or 1990s I travelled on the Victoria Line and did just that taking my feet off the floor and remaining wedged in place.

 

[Kingham West]

The reason for that is because there needs to be a competent person present in the second set to attend to any calls for aid, which do not sound in the driving cab when operated.

Thank you for that, it explains a lot, and I do not understand why the parties have been so secretive about it

 

[Hairyspotter]

In which case, surely the sensible options are to either modify the units so that it does sound in the cab, or make sure they have enough staff? Having one unit locked out while the other one is rammed is really not a good look, and 'because the railways seemingly can't sort out relatively minor operational issues' is not a good enough excuse

There's a very good reason it doesn't sound in the cab,,namely because the buttons are frequently pressed spuriously, either by people thinking it's the toilet flush button, or the buttons by the wheelchair spaces being leant on or pressed by inquisitive children.

If you consider that if it did sound in the cab, the driver would be required to stop and investigate on every occasion, that's a lot of delays, not to mention the distraction whilst actually driving.

Yes the issue should be sorted out, however there is still a shortage of guards and those that there are can't be compelled to work overtime that they don't want to. Late shifts on Saturdays being one such occasion where people don't want to have to deal with drunken and anti-social behaviour when they don't have to, and frankly I don't blame them.

 

[styles]

The limits on buses are to do with the maximum gross weight of the vehicle rather than space or speed, which is why you'll sometimes see single deck buses with capacities that it would be almost impossible to achieve.

I wonder if those numbers need changing since they were first brought in, to account for our obesity crisis. The average human weight in the UK has presumably gone up.

Based on measured values, mean weight between 1993 and 2019 increased from 78.9kg to 85.4kg among men, and from 66.6kg to 72.1kg among women