Potential South London improvement ideas?

[NorthKent1989]

I’m also not convinced that offering multiple termini is especially helpful. In my experience, people respond best to clear, consistent, and frequent timetables. Splitting services (2tph to one place, 2tph to another) rarely works well for short-distance metro routes.

Why not? It’s been the case in South & Southeast London for generations and it’s worked very well and not at all confusing, however if given the choice of a terminal had to be ditched most in the SE area would rather have less Cannon Street trains and have more Charing Cross trains even if said CHX were just 2tph.

Even though we have “route simplification” now most lines especially out to Dartford are still served 2/3 terminals, Woolwich/Greenwich has Cannon Street and Thameslink core, Bexleyheath has CHX, CST and VIC, the Sidcup has CHX and CST.

Far be it being a success it’s made people give up on SE and switch to the EL or DLR, especially along the Woolwich and Bexleyheath corridors.

I’ve got friends in North Kent who wouldn’t dream of using Southeastern — they see it as confusing and expensive. But they’ll happily drive to Abbey Wood and take the Elizabeth line. That says a lot

I can get that it’s expensive but I can’t see how it’s confusing unless they’re new to the area you say live in Gravesend, granted I can see why they’d rather drive but if Gravesend had 4tph to Abbey Wood rather than 2tph I doubt they’d drive, but the option I guess is the tediously slow Thameslink to Abbey Wood.

Well, you can't make an omelette without cracking eggs! Otherwise we carry on in South London with a complex tangled web of lines with low frequencies - in order to metro-ise South London you need to simplify and increase frequencies. No body complains the northern line doesn't branch off to Epping to make a direct journey possible.

The Northern line doesn’t go to Epping that’s the Central line.

It really isn’t that complex and many in South London are accustomed to mixed terminals.

What route simplifying only works if frequencies are at least 4tph, which we don’t have atm with uneven gaps services may as well be half hourly which is 1990s levels

 

[Zomboid]

I also think that trains should abandon airline seating entirely and go back to bays for every seat

You'll find many people who couldn't disagree more. Personally I avoid bay seats wherever possible. So realistically to try and cater for most of the people most of the time it needs a mix.

For the south London network, something along the lines of the Crossrail or Metropolitan line stock interiors is probably the right idea for services that don't get far outside the M25.

 

[PGAT]

Well, you can't make an omelette without cracking eggs! Otherwise we carry on in South London with a complex tangled web of lines with low frequencies - in order to metro-ise South London you need to simplify and increase frequencies. No body complains the bakerloo line doesn't branch off to Epping to make a direct journey possible.

We should aspire to get back to our pre-pandemic frequencies before simplifying! Not too long ago Selhurst had 6tph Victoria and 2tph London Bridge. If we simply reversed some of the cuts that have been made in the past many of the problems of low frequency branch splitting disappear

 

[stssts1985]

What route simplifying only works if frequencies are at least 4tph, which we don’t have atm with uneven gaps services may as well be half hourly which is 1990s levels

Isn't that what we're saying, you'll never get even intervals when you have such a complicated tangled web of lines. If im in Victoria wanting to go selhurst than it's 2tph! Which is not a metro frequency.

The Northern line doesn’t go to Epping that’s the Central line

This is my point, if people want to go Queens Park to Epping - they change at Oxford Circus. They don't expect queens park to have 2tph to Epping, 2tph to Brixton, 2tph to Morden!!

With the right frequencies and even intervals, TFL style names lines you'll get people using lines in South London in the same way the started using the Overground in Massively increased numbers on the north London line. In sure people said "the silverlink" has had this for generations.

Turning South London into a giant metro with good interhcnage points means people who just use it as a central London commuter but a way to travel around urban environment.

 

[Mattplans]

Gravesend. For people who aren't used to it or use it much the railway has an image of being expensive and confusing, we got to remember we on this forum are not your average traveller. People like simple systems, with spider maps like TFl With contactless payment. Rail is not so accessible for people don't use it regularly.

By this logic people rail is always accessible to people outside London. In fact, I think the Southeastern network map is a lot more accessible than say the tfl tube map and I don't think you could make it clearer. You'll gain a lot more when you're standing on a train looking at the SE Network map, compared to the "Central London Tube Map" on tfl trains. Gravesend is a great station in terms of options - 2 tph london via sidcup, 2 tph to Luton via Abbey Wood, 2tph to Bexleyheath - semifast to Dartford, and 2(maybe 1 not sure) per hour to St Pancras.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 11 Oct 2025 ==

This is my point, if people want to go Queens Park to Epping - they change at Oxford Circus. They don't expect queens park to have 2tph to Epping, 2tph to Brixton, 2tph to Morden!!

This is true - people are so anti-switching. Get over it. It's literally how the London Underground works. You can't have a train to every single destination you want, so you reach your destination by changing. If say the Bexleyheath line had all trains going to Cannon Street it would be a lot faster, predictable and simpler for everyone.

 

[stssts1985]

I think the Southeastern network map is a lot more accessible than say the tfl tube map and I don't think you could make it clearer.

I do agree with this! It's just an observation that that is his perception (which is wrong) and he chooses to drive to abbey wood.

 

[Mattplans]

Why not? It’s been the case in South & Southeast London for generations and it’s worked very well and not at all confusing, however if given the choice of a terminal had to be ditched most in the SE area would rather have less Cannon Street trains and have more Charing Cross trains even if said CHX were just 2tph.

Services would be a lot better if services were simpler and more predictable. You don't go to a Central line station ie Leyton and see people waiting for a train to Heathrow? No, that's ridiculous. You take the first available train and change as soon as you can.


The same needs to be applied to the South london services to make it more accessible and simpler for passengers. And to improve frequency and reliability. People prefer security. You can take the first available train from Bexleyheath line stations and change at London Bridge if you need Charing Cross or Waterloo East that bad.

Perhaps the 'inaccessibilty' referred to by another poster is because of the mixed and inconsistent destinations. There's no denying that services would be a lot more attractive to prospective passengers if they were simple and easy to understand. Ie, you go to Cannon Street and get your train elsewhere. What people don't like is after a busy day at the office is having to check the train times to see at what point you can make the best connection to get home as soon as possible - it's ridiculous.

 

[stssts1985]

. If say the Bexleyheath line had all trains going to Cannon Street it would be a lot faster, predictable and simpler for everyone.

Yes exactly, you could have a line with ,6tph, predictable, you know where you'd change if you needed it and not to have to wait too Long. Would be attractive for local journeys.

 

[Zomboid]

I think a variety of destinations is suitable in some cases, but inner suburban routes where turn up & go frequency can be operated would be better all round if they consistently serve the same places with good interchange opportunities.

 

[stssts1985]

Why not? It’s been the case in South & Southeast London for generations and it’s worked very well and not at all confusing

It's not confusing to you - or me - but by very means of being on this rail forum - we are not your average travelers are we??

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 11 Oct 2025 ==

good interchange opportunities.

Right, with some good interhcnage options such as Lewisham - brockley -Loughborough junction to Brixton Clapham junction,
All Sidcup and hayes trains calling at Lewisham, - we start to create a giant TFL south london overground with TFL frequencies and fares.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 11 Oct 2025 ==

We should aspire to get back to our pre-pandemic frequencies before simplifying! Not too long ago Selhurst had 6tph Victoria and 2tph London Bridge.

That's right! Really is poor that frequencies are so low now! It also leaves some terrible long gaps in the timetable such as Hackbridge caused by the removal of 2tph. I forgot Selhurst used to be 6tph to Victoria- was that before the infamous 2018 timetable change? Actually, I lived Streatham hill at that timetable change and my experience was punctuality because really good after the change (things weren't so good north of the river, but no one ever mentions the good stuff)

 

[Zomboid]

With Brockley High Level and platforms at Brixton (putting aside the funding for the sake of speculating), I think even a service between Lewisham (somewhere east of there, Dartford probably) and Victoria (maybe even Battersea Park) could do good business as an overground style line.

 

[Mattplans]

I think a variety of destinations is suitable in some cases, but inner suburban routes where turn up & go frequency can be operated would be better all round if they consistently serve the same places with good interchange opportunities.

I totally agree with you. In some cases. For example, when disruption occurs at say London Bridge, it's great to have services from Victoria that still run completely unaffected. And if the frequencies are high, it wouldn't be an issue. But excessive wait times, poor timetabling and prolonged gaps are unacceptable.

 

[NorthKent1989]

This is my point, if people want to go Queens Park to Epping - they change at Oxford Circus. They don't expect queens park to have 2tph to Epping, 2tph to Brixton, 2tph to Morden!!

Services would be a lot better if services were simpler and more predictable. You don't go to a Central line station ie Leyton and see people waiting for a train to Heathrow? No, that's ridiculous. You take the first available train and change as soon as you can.

These are reaching with these comparisons, you cannot compare suburban rail lines built with two sets of terminals in mind with underground metro lines, most people know the Central doesn’t go to Heathrow, there are no tracks linking them together they were built by different rail companies and Heathrow opened more than a century after the Central line

The same needs to be applied to the South london services to make it more accessible and simpler for passengers. And to improve frequency and reliability. People prefer security. You can take the first available train from Bexleyheath line stations and change at London Bridge if you need Charing Cross or Waterloo East that bad.

As a long term commuter from SE London I can say that people have dealt with two terminals for generations, we don’t need routes simplified we just want what we had prior to 2022 which worked just fine.

The Dartford network of routes aren’t all that clear cut, some journeys are more outer suburban ie Gravesend and Medway and are over an hour in journey times, others are inner suburban, some skip certain stations, Trying to untangle it would be a nightmare, hence why TfL have basically gone quiet on turning SE London orange

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 11 Oct 2025 ==

This is true - people are so anti-switching. Get over it. It's literally how the London Underground works. You can't have a train to every single destination you want, so you reach your destination by changing. If say the Bexleyheath line had all trains going to Cannon Street it would be a lot faster, predictable and simpler for everyone.

Again comparing mainline suburban trains with the London Underground, also changing trains isn’t all that handy, especially if there is a delay with changing trains and missed connections, which regularly happens at London Bridge where trains are so packed I have to let them go, it’s no wonder people have abandoned Southeastern.

 

[Mattplans]

As a long term commuter from SE London I can say that people have dealt with two terminals for generations, we don’t need routes simplified we just want what we had prior to 2022 which worked just fine.

As a commuter, I would be happy with better spaced services at an increased frequency. Sure, it would be better if all my trains came/went to the same place as that would mean I would be able to get on every available train and get home faster, but since we've had it for generations there musn't be a better way of running it. Like most, I'd settle for an improved frequency with better spacing.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 11 Oct 2025 ==

Again comparing mainline suburban trains with the London Underground, also changing trains isn’t all that handy, especially if there is a delay with changing trains and missed connections.

Yeah, the frequency is so high on services from London Bridge to Charing Cross so if you miss your train, like at any other point on the network, you wait 1-2 minute for the next one.

 

[LLivery]

My wish list is basically:

* Refurbs of all stations - opening up of closed station buildings, gatelines where possible, etc.
* Networker Replacement being 6 cars (4 cars for Penge East & Bromley North), making 12 (8) car sets when coupled up.
* Grab land somewhere for that required extra depot space
* Brockley Interchange, 4tph on the high level
* Either Lewisham or Orpington stoppers calling at Clapham High Street + required works for it
* East Croydon, Norwood Junction expansion/rebuild & the junction(s) remodelling
* Clapham Junction rebuild
* Rebuild of Elephant & Castle Thameslink and direct connection to Underground
* New station in Camberwell/Walworth area
* Elizabeth Line to Staines
* Doubling of East Croydon - Watford Junction service (I'd extend to St Albans Abbey)
* Min of 4tph on all routes where possible

Real pie in the sky:
I'd like to see a Dartford - Bexleyheath - Lewisham - Peckham - Clapham Jun - Richmond - Staines - Heathrow service. I know, a planner's nightmare, but great for orbital connections.

As a commuter, I would be happy with better spaced services at an increased frequency. Sure, it would be better if all my trains came/went to the same place as that would mean I would be able to get on every available train and get home faster, but since we've had it for generations there musn't be a better way of running it. Like most, I'd settle for an improved frequency with better spacing.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 11 Oct 2025 ==


Yeah, the frequency is so high on services from London Bridge to Charing Cross so if you miss your train, like at any other point on the network, you wait 1-2 minute for the next one.

Also as a local, how much of a frequency increase are we expecting with route 'simplification'? Because I'm struggling to see how we'd get beyond 24tph through Lewisham (if that's doable), assuming all stoppers became 6tph, which I'm not sure would be worth the inconvenience. Comparisons with the Underground isn't very useful when it has trains up to every 90 seconds and it's just not possible for the railway on its infrastructure to do so.

Edit: It'd be more than 24tph, as I haven't accounted for the Blackheath Tunnel services.

 

[cle]

Could a train starting at Bromley North and running on the fast deliver a fully and standing 10-car load at London Bridge? The basic problem is that the branch is too short, and although Bromley North is a focal point for bus services, the area is already well served by other stations.

It’s a bit like HEx, the paths work at Ladywell because it peels off. And Bromley North is the next best thing.

 

[stssts1985]

you cannot compare suburban rail lines built with two sets of terminals in mind with underground metro lines

I Understand your point, however I'm talking about moving away from southeastern and Southern being a suburban railway predominantly there to take people into central London in the morning and home in the evening to be urban metro lines (like the Overground) high frequency services with good connections. Making cross South London journeys possible and convenient and reducing car use. It's worked in north London.

I would say people "abandon" southeastern for the Elizabeth line for various reasons , not mainly because 2tph no longer goes to Charing cross. the Elizabeth is frequent, simple, named, TFL fare stricture including connections at the far end at the same price. It's also a multi billion pound line that is designed for 2025 - you would expect it to attract passengers!!

Out of interest do we know if the stated aim of less cancellations and delays was achieved by reducing the number of switches at busy junctions?

, we don’t need routes simplified we just want what we had prior to 2022 w

I have said for years people in Kent and London Kent moan about their trains more than elsewhere - prior to 2022 this was the same!

Doubling of East Croydon - Watford Junction service (I'd extend to St Albans Abbey)

Really agree east Croydon to Watford trains are packed heaving even off peak - surely we can do better than 1tph

 

[Mattplans]

Also as a local, how much of a frequency increase are we expecting with route 'simplification'? Because I'm struggling to see how we'd get beyond 24tph through Lewisham (if that's doable), assuming all stoppers became 6tph, which I'm not sure would be worth the inconvenience. Comparisons with the Underground isn't very useful when it has trains up to every 90 seconds and it's just not possible for the railway on its infrastructure to do so.

I acknowledge there will never be frequency comparable with most Underground lines. That's why if it was simple, ie all trains originating/terminating at the same location, it would be more passenger-friendly. Since we can't send an inf amount of trains down a line, the least we could do is send the amount of trains we can send from the same location so we don't have extended wait times.

* Rebuild of Elephant & Castle Thameslink and direct connection to Underground

Wishful thinking

* Either Lewisham or Orpington stoppers calling at Clapham High Street + required works for it

I don't really think this is necessary, but I would like to see additional calls during disruption/SE calling there at the final service of the day. Just to join up this 'railway family

 

[LLivery]

Really agree east Croydon to Watford trains are packed heaving even off peak - surely we can do better than 1tph

It's pretty incredible that even in London, a 1tph service can be as busy as it is.

I acknowledge there will never be frequency comparable with most Underground lines. That's why if it was simple, ie all trains originating/terminating at the same location, it would be more passenger-friendly. Since we can't send an inf amount of trains down a line, the least we could do is send the amount of trains we can send from the same location so we don't have extended wait times.

But is reduction of the extended wait times worth it?

If I had all my trains be diverted into Victoria it'd screw me right over and the time it'd take me to get to Victoria from my usual location in Central London, or forcing me to change at Lewisham, will probably result in the time being the same, or most likely longer, with the added benefit of being in the cold, wind and rain on some days at Lewi, plus with the possible added missed connection. With high frequency like the Underground, I'd agree. But this for the suburban system just isn't adding up to me.

Wishful thinking

Maybe, but this is spec ideas and the ball has been dropped here by those responsible for all of the local developments, and it arguably should've had some Thameslink Programme improvements. It can't stay as is.

I don't really think this is necessary, but I would like to see additional calls during disruption/SE calling there at the final service of the day. Just to join up this 'railway family

I feel the connections to Clapham Junction avoiding Zone 1, the connection to the Northern Line at Clapham North, also avoiding Zone 1, and for trains towards Peckham, Lewisham, ELL core, would be very useful, especially with no Brixton LO platforms.

 

[JonathanH]

It can't stay as is.

The thing about Elephant & Castle is that there has been plenty of non-railway investment around the place as well, and that equally hasn't stretched to improving the connections between the underground and the mainline station.

As with many other things about the railways in south London, it will stay as it is until it gets to the top of the queue for what limited funding is available. Do people who could change at Elephant and Castle simply find another option? If we think of some examples where an improved connection at Elephant & Castle might improve matters, what do people do instead? Don't they just find their way to Blackfriars (which clearly did see investment as part of the Thameslink programme) and change there?

 

[frankmoh]

I feel like the Beckenham Spur could be used a little more to give the Chatham Main Line services to Charing Cross or Cannon Street. I know on the Hayes Line they run run an extra train per hour in the morning peak so you could possibly slip in an service there.

 

[Mattplans]

But is reduction of the extended wait times worth it?

Like I say, I would honestly settle for better timetabling. Southeastern's timetable on BH line is very poor - this would not be as much of an issue for me personally if the gaps were properly spaced like anyone with a brain would have done.

If I had all my trains be diverted into Victoria it'd screw me right over and the time it'd take me to get to Victoria from my usual location in Central London, or forcing me to change at Lewisham, will probably result in the time being the same, or most likely longer, with the added benefit of being in the cold, wind and rain on some days at Lewi, plus with the possible added missed connection. With high frequency like the Underground, I'd agree. But this for the suburban system just isn't adding up to me.

Well I'm not suggesting all of one line be diverted to Victoria to be honest, as that's very much the secondary terminus and the inferior location for Central London except for leisure.

 

[NorthKent1989]

Well I'm not suggesting all of one line be diverted to Victoria to be honest, as that's very much the secondary terminus and the inferior location for Central London except for leisure.

It’s better than Cannon Street, Victoria at least is in the West End.

I would say people "abandon" southeastern for the Elizabeth line for various reasons , not mainly because 2tph no longer goes to Charing cross. the Elizabeth is frequent, simple, named, TFL fare stricture including connections at the far end at the same price. It's also a multi billion pound line that is designed for 2025 - you would expect it to attract passengers!!

As I said the EL is good but like anything not perfect for every journey and in the peaks it’s extremely busy standing room by Custom House, it’s nothing to do with it being named, the Dartford routes were unofficially named for years before SE named them. And losing CHX hasn’t helped either, changing trains potentially adds time to a journey and Cannon Street is nowhere special off peak and Weekends it’s not hard to see why people would choose direct journeys over in direct ones to locations they previously had direct journeys to despite being 2tph.

Out of interest do we know if the stated aim of less cancellations and delays was achieved by reducing the number of switches at busy junctions?

Cancellations haven’t reduced reducing Lewisham Junction hasn’t changed that.

I have said for years people in Kent and London Kent moan about their trains more than elsewhere - prior to 2022 this was the same

More than anywhere else? That’s a bold statement, plenty people Hertfordshire who lost GN services because of Thameslink in 2018 are rightly unhappy with their journeys, out in Berkshire/Outer West London delays on the EL have become a regular issue

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 12 Oct 2025 ==

The thing about Elephant & Castle is that there has been plenty of non-railway investment around the place as well, and that equally hasn't stretched to improving the connections between the underground and the mainline station.

As with many other things about the railways in south London, it will stay as it is until it gets to the top of the queue for what limited funding is available. Do people who could change at Elephant and Castle simply find another option? If we think of some examples where an improved connection at Elephant & Castle might improve matters, what do people do instead? Don't they just find their way to Blackfriars (which clearly did see investment as part of the Thameslink programme) and change there?

I’m surprised that E&C wasn’t upgraded in the 2010s for the Thameslink expansion, it’s the secondary entry point for the core, and it’s been a known redevelopment area for the last decade, it’s jarring being in E&C and using the mainline station and seeing how unloved it is, I’m sure it’s the only zone 1 station with no ticket barriers.

 

[frankmoh]

I’m sure it’s the only zone 1 station with no ticket barriers.

Waterloo's W&C line platform? But that's irrelevant because Bank has barriers.

 

[Mattplans]

It’s better than Cannon Street, Victoria at least is in the West End.

Sure, but Cannon Street is via London Bridge and you can easily connect with Charing X which is in the West End.

 

[Bald Rick]

You don't go to a Central line station ie Leyton and see people waiting for a train to Heathrow?

But you do go to Highgate station and see people waiting for Bank or Charing Cross…

 

[stssts1985]

The thing about Elephant & Castle is that there has been plenty of non-railway investment around the place as well, and that equally hasn't stretched to improving the connections

I’m surprised that E&C wasn’t upgraded in the 2010s for the Thameslink expansion, it’s the secondary entry point for the cor

I am surprised it was tied to the development in planning,, some very rich overseas people made a lot of money developing the former Haygate and the shopping centre which caught fire (!!!) - such a shame improving both the rail and tube wasn't included in that.



I'd also improve the line with a station around Camberwell/Walworth as someone else said, also linking the line with a high level platform at Streatham common and Loughborough junction and sorting out the timetable at hackbridge to have roughly 15 interval

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 12 Oct 2025 ==

Cancellations haven’t reduced reducing Lewisham Junction hasn’t changed that.

Looked at the time to 3 mins on the southeastern metro and it's between 88% (bexleyhearh) and 93% (hayes) which seems pretty reasonable to me. People always complain but don't naturally report the good stuff, as I mentioned previously in the infamous 2018 timetable - functionality on my line (Streatham hill) went massively up - and has remained so. My commute used to be always delayed and now very very rare even a min late.

 

[NorthKent1989]

Sure, but Cannon Street is via London Bridge and you can easily connect with Charing X which is in the West End.

When that connection works sure but I won’t take that chance anymore, I’ve been using the EL more now, if SE can’t be bothered running a rail service or if Thameslink keeps messing up which it does, I won’t use the Woolwich line.

 

[Mattplans]

But you do go to Highgate station and see people waiting for Bank or Charing Cross…

Sure. That's because the option exists. If they split the Northern line however, you'd just get the first train and connect with a Bank branch service that's come from the other side.

When that connection works sure but I won’t take that chance anymore, I’ve been using the EL more now, if SE can’t be bothered running a rail service or if Thameslink keeps messing up which it does, I won’t use the Woolwich line.

Can't blame you there. Thameslink is ridiculous - I agree. Any small issue and they'll cancel and their service recovery is abhorrent - it definitely feels like they cancel as much services during disruption for the sake of it when it isn't necessary. And it's definitely awful to have your services cancelled because of a person being hit at Luton, and absolutely no Thameslink trains between London Bridge and Dartford. On one occassion, Southeastern have already fully recovered their service by around 18:30, and TL are saying 'No service expected for the rest of the day'. It's honestly crazy, and I understand the limits to service recovery on a network as large as Thameslink's, but it definitely gets to a point. I'm fully in favour of that service being replaced by a Southeastern semi-fast, and restoring the 2tph Orp-Lutons, and adding the other 2 to make it 4tph.

 

[LLivery]

Well I'm not suggesting all of one line be diverted to Victoria to be honest, as that's very much the secondary terminus and the inferior location for Central London except for leisure.

Victoria is useful for those who work in Westminster, but I agree, it's not a great location.

I get the frustration with the Bexleyheath spacing.