Expansion of LNER 70-min flex trial area ("Simpler Fares")

[Trainbike46]

See that is another way this trial confuses people, I thought it was on all their routes as far north as Edinburgh now.

It is Edinburgh-London, Newcastle-London, and selected other stations pairs to prevent people from avoiding the trial by buying to a nearby station instead.

I want all single tickets to cost exactly half of a return, if that is what you mean. However I think removing the Period Return is a mistake.

Why would you have a return ticket, if it is priced as 2 singles? what purpose does it serve?
I am strongly opposed to the removal of the super-off-peak single, but I am in favour of the single leg pricing - it makes things like triangular journeys, and mixing and matching different tickets in different directions easier. Project Oval has similarly reduced the price of singles in the relevant area to half of the relevant return.

 

[Bletchleyite]

See that is another way this trial confuses people, I thought it was on all their routes as far north as Edinburgh now.

It is on most journeys between the London area and the Newcastle, Berwick and Edinburgh area but not south of that. There remain exceptions if you want the Super Off Peak but please don't post them here and help LNER close them

It says a lot about how incredibly expensive LNER generally is at times that people think it is though!

I want all single tickets to cost exactly half of a return, if that is what you mean. However I think removing the Period Return is a mistake.

I'm neutral on whether you need to have returns at twice the singles as well as the singles. LNER doesn't, but the Project Oval area does. Very, very rarely do I return on a day that wasn't the day intended, so having to pay a £5 admin fee to do so on that very rare occasion is just neither here nor there to me. Generally the flexibility I want and need is on the day of travel.

Also this seems to expose why 1 TOC doing this sort of reform doesn't work. Really this work needs to be DFT working with the rail regions that will presumably exist once all TOCs are nationalised with a lot of input from passengers into creating an actually simple and standardised fares system.

It's not sensible to implement it nationally without trialling it somewhere first. This does cause inconsistencies but it's better than rolling something out nationally that just doesn't work.

 

[Trainbike46]

I wouldn't see a huge problem with just adding it, marketed as a £20 supplement for the flexibility as a buy up when choosing an Advance. It would be very interesting to see what people chose if it was available alongside the Super Off Peak Single.

Agreed, offering a supplement to advance tickets for some flexibility would be a good move, especially if implemented nationally, and set up so that all retailers can sell the supplement in a clear manner. Not sure it should always cost £20 though

 

[Bletchleyite]

Oval has similarly reduced the price of singles in the relevant area to half of the relevant return.

It has, and it's most welcome, but the day returns have been kept.

 

[MikeWM]

Why would you have a return ticket, if it is priced as 2 singles? what purpose does it serve?

You may want to break your return journey for a number of days at an intermediate station - as I did last week.

Probably not an issue in a small geographical area (eg. the Oval area), but when we're talking about 200+ mile journeys, which is a good proportion of journeys made on LNER, that is something people occasionally want to do. As buying A->B and B->C tends to be considerably more expensive for long journeys than A->C, not having a period return ends up being considerably more expensive.

 

[Bletchleyite]

You may want to break your return journey for a number of days at an intermediate station - as I did last week.

With single fare pricing, just purchase singles for what you want to do. That has the further advantage that you're not limited to permitted routes, you can do a triangular journey, or a multipoint one, or break the outward overnight, or whatever you want!

The added flexibility that single fare pricing offers is huge. For those advantages I'm willing to accept the slight inconvenience of having to specify which day (but not which train) I want to travel, and very, very rarely* having to pay a £5 admin fee to change the day.

* I think I must have returned from a trip on a day other than that planned low single-figures numbers of times, and I'm middle aged so you're talking many hundreds of trips. I have taken earlier or later trains or stopped off for an unplanned meal break or similar, but not changed the day very often at all.

As buying A->B and B->C tends to be considerably more expensive for long journeys than A->C

It doesn't. It's sometimes even cheaper. On occasions it's more expensive, to be fair, but not always.

 

[aron2smith]

Why would you have a return ticket, if it is priced as 2 singles? what purpose does it serve?

I am strongly opposed to the removal of the super-off-peak single, but I am in favour of the single leg pricing - it makes things like triangular journeys, and mixing and matching different tickets in different directions easier. Project Oval has similarly reduced the price of singles in the relevant area to half of the relevant return.

Because people generally want to buy their tickets at the start and just be done with. If I had a choice between buying a return at the start of the journey or having to buy twice, once at outbound, once at inbound, I would always buy at the start, don't have to think about it again then. Period Returns especially allow that last minute flexibility.

Also I would've thought travelcards, rangers and rovers would be better for triangular journeys in many cases. I really like what Project Oval is doing here in the South East, very impatiently waiting for it to reach Harlow, Bishop's Stortford and Stansted! Looking forward to creating some unique bus and train journeys across Herts and Essex! Would be good if Oval's fares (minus the contactless) were nationwide.

LNER forcing people to use advances is not a good thing. Opens the door to reservation only services, which defeats the point of travel.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Because people generally want to buy their tickets at the start and just be done with. If I had a choice between buying a return at the start of the journey or having to buy twice, once at outbound, once at inbound, I would always buy at the start, don't have to think about it again then. Period Returns especially allow that last minute flexibility.

Absolutely nothing stops you from purchasing the two singles at the start. I'd venture that that's what almost everyone does.

Also I would've thought travelcards, rangers and rovers would be better for triangular journeys in many cases.

They add complexity and are often expensive. And are not always available. There is for instance no Rover that would allow me to travel from Bletchley to Liverpool, then to Sheffield, then back to Bletchley via the MML and Bedford aside from the extremely expensive All Lines. Single fare pricing allows me to do that if I want - and while I've not had to do this specific one I have done journeys like that for reasons other than bashing - but often by car because return fare pricing makes it very expensive to do it by train!

I really like what Project Oval is doing here in the South East, very impatiently waiting for it to reach Harlow, Bishop's Stortford and Stansted! Looking forward to creating some unique bus and train journeys across Herts and Essex! Would be good if Oval's fares (minus the contactless) were nationwide.

Single fare pricing and abolishing period returns is what it's doing. I like it of course, it's saving me a packet! Don't forget that if using contactless and you touch in before 0630 it's off peak!

LNER forcing people to use advances is not a good thing. Opens the door to reservation only services, which defeats the point of travel.

It does seem at least in part intended to make reservation de facto compulsory by making doing otherwise extremely expensive.

 

[aron2smith]

It's not sensible to implement it nationally without trialling it somewhere first. This does cause inconsistencies but it's better than rolling something out nationally that just doesn't work.

I agree but what I meant is, LNER is only considering the impact of the trial in their own area when really it should've been DFT doing ticket reform as a whole and then trialling it in specific areas, regardless of who runs the trains. A bit like how they picked specific parts of the East Midlands and North for the GPS PAYG. The way our railways were divided during privatisation seems to have created a lot of barriers to improving things like tickets.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I agree but what I meant is, LNER is only considering the impact of the trial in their own area when really it should've been DFT doing ticket reform as a whole and then trialling it in specific areas, regardless of who runs the trains. A bit like how they picked specific parts of the East Midlands and North for the GPS PAYG. The way our railways were divided during privatisation seems to have created a lot of barriers to improving things like tickets.

There were supposed to be more similar-but-slightly-different trials with other TOCs, the suggestions were that one was probably TPE and the other Avanti. That seems to have stalled and gone quiet, though, possibly because of GBR faffing about with far more existential questions (and the Transition Team having been disbanded) and TOC management other than David Horne don't seem that bothered about it (with GWR seeming to be introducing more, not fewer, walk up fares e.g. the Long Weekend Return).

As things stand I'd expect to see it rolled out to the whole of LNER at the end of the "trial" period (when is that? Some time next year?) but probably not go further for a while yet.

Hendy is known to be enthusiastic about it (no doubt given his deep pockets, similar to Ford) but will he even be in charge by the time unified fare structures are actually under practical discussion?

 

[Trainbike46]

LNER forcing people to use advances is not a good thing. Opens the door to reservation only services, which defeats the point of travel.

Bletchleyite has already made most of the points I would make, however I would add I agree with you on this final point; that is why I said I strongly oppose the removal of the super off-peak single, which is the main flexible fare on LNER that people would actually use.

There were supposed to be more similar-but-slightly-different trials with other TOCs, the suggestions were that one was probably TPE and the other Avanti. That seems to have stalled and gone quiet, though, possibly because of GBR faffing about with far more existential questions (and the Transition Team having been disbanded) and TOC management other than David Horne don't seem that bothered about it (with GWR seeming to be introducing more, not fewer, walk up fares e.g. the Long Weekend Return).

Arguably, GWR is also trialling fares reform, just of a very different type (and as far as I can tell, more customer friendly type) than LNER.

As things stand I'd expect to see it rolled out to the whole of LNER at the end of the "trial" period (when is that? Some time next year?) but probably not go further for a while yet.

Hendy is known to be enthusiastic about it (no doubt given his deep pockets, similar to Ford) but will he even be in charge by the time unified fare structures are actually under practical discussion?

I remain surprised (and somewhat shocked) lord Hendy is still in post. I really hope the super off-peak single gets reintroduced.

 

[aron2smith]

Absolutely nothing stops you from purchasing the two singles at the start. I'd venture that that's what almost everyone does.

That only works if the 2nd single is valid on any day for a month after the 1st single was used. Maybe we should do what Germany does and make people stamp their ticket before travelling.
Also until the perception of the railway changes, anything that reduces flexibility should be undesirable. A few weeks ago, I travelled on the Irish Rail network, not one train was cancelled, worst delay was 5 minutes, every connection was kept, that is how reliable things need to be here, before anything of the sort that LNER is doing would be acceptable to me.

They add complexity and are often expensive.

Not what I've found. I've combined a LNWR only Euston to Tamworth return with a Coast and Peaks Rover a couple times in recent years, with a Railcard, £25 or so to Tamworth then £67 for the rover which is valid for 4 in 8 days, to me quite a bargain when London to Liverpool or Manchester is £76 return on its own but now I can go anywhere in North Wales all the way to Sheffield too! Done this on GWR too. I explored quite a lot before even needing an All Line Rover.

London travelcards also cost the same as a day cap anyway.

Single fare pricing and abolishing period returns is what it's doing. I like it of course, it's saving me a packet! Don't forget that if using contactless and you touch in before 0630 it's off peak!

It does seem at least in part intended to make reservation de facto compulsory by making doing otherwise extremely expensive.

Agree on these two bits.

 

[MikeWM]

It doesn't. It's sometimes even cheaper. On occasions it's more expensive, to be fair, but not always.

12.7% more expensive in the specific case I did last week (calculated by halving the off-peak return prices for each leg).

To be fair, that's rather less than I anticipated. And I do agree that keeping off-peak tickets is a much more significant hill to fight on than keeping period returns.


Edit : Though I did a similar journey last year with a different destination about 25 miles away, same break point. In that case the difference is 28.9%, which starts to feel more significant.

 

[Bletchleyite]

That only works if the 2nd single is valid on any day for a month after the 1st single was used.

If you genuinely don't know which day you're coming back, just don't buy it until you know. But it is very rare for people to make a trip and not know which day they are coming back. As I said I've come back on a different day from a trip than intended a tiny number of times in hundreds of trips in my lifetime.

Maybe we should do what Germany does and make people stamp their ticket before travelling.

That's a French and Italian thing on regional trains plus some German urban systems. Long distance German trains are sold as singles. Indeed, they have quite an odd system now whereby the Flexpreis (the Anytime, basically) is priced differently by day of the week but not by time of day.

 

[aron2smith]

Arguably, GWR is also trialling fares reform, just of a very different type (and as far as I can tell, more customer friendly type) than LNER.

That explains why Paddington to Swansea single was £41, when a return was £75 or so. Most GWR routes still put singles at 10p less than a return, which is ridiculous.

I remain surprised (and somewhat shocked) lord Hendy is still in post. I really hope the super off-peak single gets reintroduced.

Me too on both points.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Arguably, GWR is also trialling fares reform, just of a very different type (and as far as I can tell, more customer friendly type) than LNER.

Those fares are still slightly confusing, to be fair, particularly as there are different ticket types depending if you're doing a Friday-Monday or Saturday-Monday journey, and they aren't available for just a weekend. Virgin Trains' old "The Weekender" was a better designed ticket, it permitted outward on Friday to Sunday and return on Saturday to Monday if I recall rightly, with no time restrictions on any day. You'd not have bought one for a Saturday out Sunday back (a Saver was cheaper), but that's no different to the Anytime Return being sold for such a journey if you really wanted it.

 

[Haywain]

I really like what Project Oval is doing here in the South East, very impatiently waiting for it to reach Harlow, Bishop's Stortford and Stansted!

I'm pleased that you are looking forward to the introduction of an afternoon peak period. I'm not.

 

[aron2smith]

I'm pleased that you are looking forward to the introduction of an afternoon peak period. I'm not.

If it's anything like where contactless only already exists eg Hatfield, the cost difference between peak and off peak is negligible. The premium is only noticeable if going to zone 1, sometimes zone 2. I bought a single from Southend Central to Benfleet earlier this year, peak would've been 30p more than off peak. Oval is not perfect, like losing Super Off Peak fares but overall the benefits outweighs the downsides I think. Can't say LNER's trial has any benefits for us passengers at all.

 

[MikeWh]

London travelcards also cost the same as a day cap anyway.

No they don't. Within zones 1-9 the cost of a cap is always less than the appropriate travelcard, especially if it's just zones 1-2 and/or includes travel before 0930. Further afield it's way more complicated, see https://oysterfares.com/south-east-rail-pay-as-you-go-with-contactless/caps-vs-travelcards/ for full details. Generally the off-peak cap is cheaper and the anytime one often is, but there are exceptions.

 

[Krokodil]

The problem with this is that people buy one as a paper ticket and use the return half as a pseudo-season ticket until it gets marked.

Not a difficult thing to clamp down upon, particularly in an age where most tickets are smart ones and CCSTs are increasingly in a minority.

Why would you have a return ticket, if it is priced as 2 singles? what purpose does it serve?

It allows someone to purchase their tickets (out and back) before their journey, while still allowing them to change their mind about when exactly to return.

Absolutely nothing stops you from purchasing the two singles at the start. I'd venture that that's what almost everyone does.

Which would be fine if the second one was undated until you were ready to make your return. Basically making it a carnet with two tickets.

 

[Watershed]

If it's anything like where contactless only already exists eg Hatfield, the cost difference between peak and off peak is negligible. The premium is only noticeable if going to zone 1, sometimes zone 2. I bought a single from Southend Central to Benfleet earlier this year, peak would've been 30p more than off peak. Oval is not perfect, like losing Super Off Peak fares but overall the benefits outweighs the downsides I think. Can't say LNER's trial has any benefits for us passengers at all.

The differential between peak and off-peak fares has long been minimal on C2C. The same can't be said for most other commuter routes, where the Anytime Day Return is typically 1.5-2x the Off-Peak Day Return (CDR).

In some cases the CDR has been cut slightly in price to reflect the fact that it now has less validity than before, but there are several cases (e.g. the SWR extensions, from memory) where that didn't happen and it was a pure price rise for most.

 

[sheff1]

Single fare pricing was an earlier trial, and I wholeheartedly support it.

See your support for reduced flexibity with higher prices remains strong.

Why would you have a return ticket, if it is priced as 2 singles? what purpose does it serve?

To allow me, for example, to travel from Edinburgh to Newcastle, stop there overnight and then continue south to London with just the one ticket rather than two which there is every chance will cost more.

Arguably, GWR is also trialling fares reform, just of a very different type (and as far as I can tell, more customer friendly type) than LNER.

I agree

Long distance German trains are sold as singles.

But you can specify one or more breaks (e.g. a couple of hours for lunch or much longer) on the one ticket rather than having to buy two.

 

[Haywain]

To allow me, for example, to travel from Edinburgh to Newcastle, stop there for a couple of hours to have lunch and then continue south with just the one ticket

Something that's allowed by an Off Peak Single ticket already.

 

[Hadders]

If it's anything like where contactless only already exists eg Hatfield, the cost difference between peak and off peak is negligible. The premium is only noticeable if going to zone 1, sometimes zone 2. I bought a single from Southend Central to Benfleet earlier this year, peak would've been 30p more than off peak. Oval is not perfect, like losing Super Off Peak fares but overall the benefits outweighs the downsides I think. Can't say LNER's trial has any benefits for us passengers at all.

There will be some significant fares increases as a result of Project Oval, especially for leisure travel.

Looking at my local line, Stevenage to London. Current fares are:

Anytime Day Return £28.90
Off Peak Day Return £22.80 - no evening restrictions on the return
Weekend Super Off Peak Day Return £16.80

We don't know the exact Project Oval fares yet but I suspect that to Kings Cross they'll be something like:

Peak £14.40
Off Peak £11.40
I suspect the weekend super Off Peak fares will be abolished

So on a weekday, at face value the fares are the same but beware the evening peak and weekend trap!

So a passenger travelling out in the morning peak and back in the evening peak pays £28.80 - 10p cheaper than the current fare
A passenger travelling out off peak and back off peak will pay £22.80 compared - same as today
A passenger travelling out off peak but back in the evening peak will pay £25.80 compared to £22.80 at present. An increase of 13%
A weekend traveller will pay £22.80 compared to £16.80 at present. An increase of 36%

For completeness, there is an advantage if a passenger touches in prior to 06:30 on a weekday:
A passenger travelling out before 06:30 and returning at an off peak time pays £22.80 compared to £28.90 at present. A saving of 21%
And a passenger travelling out before 06:30 returning in the evening peak pays £25.80 compared to £28.90 at present. A saving of 11%

 

[sheff1]

Something that's allowed by an Off Peak Single ticket already.

There are no longer any Off Peak singles from Edinburgh to London with LNER.

Although in the wider context, stopping overnight is probably a better example, I will edit the post.

 

[yorksrob]

I agree but what I meant is, LNER is only considering the impact of the trial in their own area when really it should've been DFT doing ticket reform as a whole and then trialling it in specific areas, regardless of who runs the trains. A bit like how they picked specific parts of the East Midlands and North for the GPS PAYG. The way our railways were divided during privatisation seems to have created a lot of barriers to improving things like tickets.

I agree. The single fares trial has ballsed up buying returns to further afield.

However, that is less serious than the crooked withdrawal of off-peak fares on some flows. This is an entirely unjustified assault on the passenger, however much people on here seem to assume a remarkable amount of insight into everyone's lives.

The "oh, you should be able to plan this or that life event, leisure activity, family meet up etc months in advance" and other such nonsense is all distraction to the fact that this is a price gouge. However some people will argue black is white and visa versa given the opportunity.

 

[AdamWW]

If you genuinely don't know which day you're coming back, just don't buy it until you know. But it is very rare for people to make a trip and not know which day they are coming back. As I said I've come back on a different day from a trip than intended a tiny number of times in hundreds of trips in my lifetime

Which is great for the railway because if you buy a return they have some obligation to try to get you home (and even if that doesn't make any difference on the day, it gives you grounds to try to get the costs for more expensive alternative travel out of them after the event).

Leave it to the day to buy a single for the return journey and they can just say oh well, can't run any trains today, find another way of getting home.

Or indeed you might just find that when you go to buy your ticket home there's disruption and they've withdrawn everything except anytime tickets to minimise the number of people they have to cater for.

 

[johncrossley]

Which is great for the railway because if you buy a return they have some obligation to try to get you home (and even if that doesn't make any difference on the day, it gives you grounds to try to get the costs for more expensive alternative travel out of them after the event).

Leave it to the day to buy a single for the return journey and they can just say oh well, can't run any trains today, find another way of getting home.

Or indeed you might just find that when you go to buy your ticket home there's disruption and they've withdrawn everything except anytime tickets to minimise the number of people they have to cater for.

To avoid this problem you can buy a ticket in advance for that day and get it changed if necessary, preferably using a supplier that doesn't charge fees.

 

[AdamWW]

To avoid this problem you can buy a ticket in advance for that day and get it changed if necessary, preferably using a supplier that doesn't charge fees.

Not quite as convenient as just having a flexible return, though.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Not quite as convenient as just having a flexible return, though.

No, but I'd say the upsides of single fare pricing outweigh this to me. (The upsides of *dynamic pricing* from this trial don't, however).