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Edinburgh Suburban line station reopenings ?

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sad1e

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Any ideas on if it would be possible too reopen stations such as Duddingston , Morningside road or Craiglockhart on the Edinburgh Suburban line. From what I can see these stations have all been closed since the 60's although the line is still open for freight.

Any ideas on how feasible or useful this reopening would be , personally I'm quite surprised there are no services on this line considering that an Edinburgh Suburban service would probably be quite well used and it would help take any potential congestion away from Waverley.
 
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stevieinselby

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Where do you think people in Morningside, Newington and Craigmillar go? The main destination will be central Edinburgh, so trains would need to loop round to Haymarket and Waverley, so would increase pressure on those stations rather than reduce it. But it would take such a circuitous route that for most people it would be quicker to take a bus going in a straight line than a train that goes off in the wrong direction first.
 

Peter0124

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Where do you think people in Morningside, Newington and Craigmillar go? The main destination will be central Edinburgh, so trains would need to loop round to Haymarket and Waverley, so would increase pressure on those stations rather than reduce it. But it would take such a circuitous route that for most people it would be quicker to take a bus going in a straight line than a train that goes off in the wrong direction first.
Why not head east and join at Portobello Jn?
 

NCT

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Where do you think people in Morningside, Newington and Craigmillar go? The main destination will be central Edinburgh, so trains would need to loop round to Haymarket and Waverley, so would increase pressure on those stations rather than reduce it. But it would take such a circuitous route that for most people it would be quicker to take a bus going in a straight line than a train that goes off in the wrong direction first.

Exactly.
 

Bletchleyite

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The viability of this might well be limited by how well-regarded Edinburgh's bus service is. In most towns people probably would prefer the train even if slower and less frequent because buses are seen as a distress purchase.
 

Bevan Price

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As in Liverpool and elsewhere, and as shown in post #2, "outer suburban" oassenger lines cannot compete with buses in terms of frequency - and sometimes journey time - for the most popular journey into the city centre.
 

Manutd1999

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Tram-trains seem like a possible solution. Trams could run from the centre on the roads until Murrayfield, then join the Suburban line and loop back through south Edinburgh, potentially rejoining the roads around Cameron Toll and merging with the planned tram extension to the BioQuarter.

That's a better plan than running extra heavy rail through Haymarket imo, but it's still unlikely.
 

stevieinselby

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Maybe a Tweedbank - Glasgow Central via Curriehill , I Don't know how many more trains you could get down the Borders line though.
Bypassing the destination that 90%+ of passengers want to go to would be an unusual choice...
 

The exile

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The only 2 ways in which such a line can be viable (in terms of usage rather than revenue) are 1) it links multiple spokes on which there is a lot of “in one and out on another” traffic and the time penalty of two changes is appreciably less than going into the hub and out again or 2) if there is massive intermediate traffic potential between the stations on the loop itself. Neither applies here.
 

Bletchleyite

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The only 2 ways in which such a line can be viable (in terms of usage rather than revenue) are 1) it links multiple spokes on which there is a lot of “in one and out on another” traffic and the time penalty of two changes is appreciably less than going into the hub and out again or 2) if there is massive intermediate traffic potential between the stations on the loop itself. Neither applies here.

I think if Edinburgh's bus service was less well regarded it'd work. I think along those lines that because Merseyrail is so highly regarded the not-dissimilar Liverpool outer loop would work (albeit not profitably; it's hard to make a profit on local rail) despite the fact that it would take longer than the bus for some journeys and cost more. After all most people going Liverpool to Chester use Merseyrail rather than TfW and probably wouldn't think of doing otherwise despite it being grindingly slow.

It might be notable that Bristol's Severn Beach line isn't badly used (as far as hourly 2-car DMU services go) despite running a similar slow, circuitous path through the city and arriving at a station (Temple Meads) that unlike Waverley is well outside the centre! But First buses in Bristol are nowhere near as well regarded as Lothian; they are perceived as slow, unreliable and uncomfortable/dirty etc.
 

The exile

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It might be notable that Bristol's Severn Beach line isn't badly used (as far as hourly 2-car DMU services go) despite running a similar slow, circuitous path through the city and arriving at a station (Temple Meads) that unlike Waverley is well outside the centre! But First buses in Bristol are nowhere near as well regarded as Lothian; they are perceived as slow, unreliable and uncomfortable/dirty etc.
One of the reasons the Severn Beach line is so well used is that it combines a reasonable frequency (3tp2h), a route that not only serves the main station but also serves radial flows badly served (if at all) by buses and (relatively) cheap fares. I suspect it is also a rare example of an essentially “spoke” line where the busiest section is not the last bit into the terminus. In addition , the “excess mileage” over the bus route at its most extreme (Clifton Down - Temple Meads) is nothing compared with the Morningside/ Blackford - New Town differential.
There have been tentative plans to reopen the Sub for at least 50 years - the fact that nothing has ever come of them is indicative!
 

waverley47

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So, the Edinburgh Sub is my pet peeve, and here is a previous thread on the issue. For simplicity, here is why it's not going to happen:


Unlikely to happen, we've been over this before.

In my career I oversaw six or seven different feasibility studies into this issue, and the answer was always the same; if you can somehow find the capacity to Waverley, or even Haymarket, you're into a winner. But good luck with that.

The problem with this line is three-fold.

Number 1

Its actually used a fair bit. There are quite a lot of long distance freight trains that would be out of guage for going via Waverley, and that's even if you could find capacity. There is a civils depot at Millerhill, an EMU depot, the line will be used for diversions at various points in the future, it's used to turn units around, as a back way into Haymarket and Craigentinny depots, and it's used to shove stuff out of the way for an hour if a spare platform is needed at Waverley.

All this doesn't amount to a train every fifteen minutes, far from it, but if you took it away, you'd suddenly notice its absence in very dramatic ways.

If you put trains around it, there isn't the capacity at Waverley, by a long, long shot. You'd be looking at a 3bn investment just to open up more capacity into Waverley from one end, just to make the paths work. Try to make it a circle, with capacity at both ends and you'd be doubling that.

Now, this doesn't mean you can't put trams around it, but you need a high frequency to make a tram worth it, and threading a tram every ten minutes around the sub is suddenly going to upset a great many stakeholders. The signalling isn't great and the sections are quite long. That could be fixed, but you'd be looking at either reduced capacity for trains or reduced tram frequencies to fit around the trains. If it's the latter then it quickly becomes uneconomical to convert to trams anyway.

Number 2

The line faces the wrong way. It goes across the southern inner suburbs of Edinburgh, in a big loop. There isn't high demand to go from say Portobello to Mayfield, or from Cameron Toll to Gorgie. The line doesn't work unless you thread the trams into the city centre, which means you need to send them to Haymarket or Waverley.

You can't use the big railway, as there's no capacity, so you'd need to somehow connect to the existing tramline.

At the West end you could maybe do this by coming off the sub, under the E&G line at Murrayfield and joining in the tramline, but that's expensive. At the east end you'd have to thread them from Fort Kinnaird, via Portobello or Willobrae and back to Princes street. Either way is expensive, and the route from the east, although it would serve a lot of people, seems an excessively long way to get to Morningside.

Additionally, if you send trams around the sub, it would still in most cases be quicker to take a direct bus into town. A bus from Morningside station to Princes Street takes 20 minutes and comes about every 4 minutes. There isn't any point taking a tram 'sideways' around the outside of the city and back into town along an east-west axis.

Number 3

For the cost of buying new dual-voltage trams (good luck getting NRScot to agree a 750v wiring system, or even more unlikely to sell the railway) and converting the railway (resignalling, building tram stations, and building the connecting links of tramway to link up with the other bits) you'd be looking at a cost of say £5bn. For that, you could buy a new line to Granton, a new line to Loanhead via Cameron Toll, a new line to the Royal Infirmary, a new line to Musselburgh via Portobello, and still have change left over for the rolling stock and a new depot somewhere.



The sums have never added up with this idea. The capacity isn't there for trains, and if you're buying trams, just stick them where they'd be more useful
 

lachlan

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Tram-trains seem like a possible solution. Trams could run from the centre on the roads until Murrayfield, then join the Suburban line and loop back through south Edinburgh, potentially rejoining the roads around Cameron Toll and merging with the planned tram extension to the BioQuarter.

That's a better plan than running extra heavy rail through Haymarket imo, but it's still unlikely.
Worth noting there has been recent publicity from a group called "Tram Trains for Edinburgh" which may explain any renewed interest in the line
 

zwk500

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One of the reasons the Severn Beach line is so well used is that it combines a reasonable frequency (3tp2h),
Severn beach line is 2tph to Avonmouth, 1tph to Severn Beach.
a route that not only serves the main station but also serves radial flows badly served (if at all) by buses and (relatively) cheap fares. I suspect it is also a rare example of an essentially “spoke” line where the busiest section is not the last bit into the terminus. In addition , the “excess mileage” over the bus route at its most extreme (Clifton Down - Temple Meads) is nothing compared with the Morningside/ Blackford - New Town differential.
Also worth pointing out the Buses serve the Centre/Broadmead before getting to Temple Meads. If you're heading to an office in Redcliff it will be quicker to wait for the train than sit on the bus as it loops around the city centre.

There is also a significant turnover of people at Clifton Down, and a fair amount of people who get off at Lawrence Hill in the mornings (and on in the evenings).
 

Bletchleyite

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Glasgow being an exception.

Liverpool itself is, too. I can't imagine many people choosing buses over Merseyrail unless on a very tight budget or on a bus-only free pass from e.g. Lancashire.

I did think the Liverpool example was referring to the outer loop which was planned to reopen in the 1970s but never did - I do think people would still use that over buses if it had 4tph on it despite the potentially long journey, just like some people use Metrolink all the way in from Rochdale despite it taking longer than the normal train. The likes of Merseyrail and Metrolink do offer quite an attractive package of simplicity, frequency and comfort* compared to other modes, be that traditional heavy rail or bus.

* Yes, I know, the 777 seats are bad, I've moaned about it enough. But it's probably still better than being shaken around on a bus for half an hour.
 
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