Potential South London improvement ideas?

[frankmoh]

Not to mention zero CHX services on the Woolwich line, DfT’s excuse was “you have the Elizabeth line” the EL has been a game changer, but it’s not perfect for every journey, if I want Southbank, I’d previously got a direct train to Waterloo East, something I can’t do on the EL.

I'm starting to wonder if the axing of Cannon Street services on the Hayes line was a result of this Lizzie Line shakeup for Southeastern. That being said when it was still running I never had a need to go to the City, I just changed at London Bridge, which is the sensible thing to do.

 

[Mattplans]

Not to mention zero CHX services on the Woolwich line, DfT’s excuse was “you have the Elizabeth line” the EL has been a game changer, but it’s not perfect for every journey, if I want Southbank, I’d previously got a direct train to Waterloo East, something I can’t do on the EL.

I think we have to understand that not everywhere on the network can have direct trains to Charing Cross. There simply isn't enough capacity. I am never a fan of the DfT's cuts and their continuous ambitions to degrade the service to its' bare minimums, but withdrawing the services from Charing Cross does seem justified here. One of my biggest issues with Southeastern is that after they went screaming about the Lewisham vale junction conflicts, the Bexleyheath line still receives a pretty lacklustre service.

As a passenger, I am completely in favour of sending all trains via Bexleyheath to/from Cannon Street with trains every 10 minutes (which is not far fetched given the current service - they're just very poorly spaced at the moment). Passengers for/from Charing Cross should just change at London Bridge - how much trouble is it if the frequency is high? Even if the Greenwich/Woolwich route does not have direct trains (I note there was one evening peak from Charing Cross to Dartford via Lewisham and Woolwich A that's now been removed) they have the most trains on this route than any other route on southeastern. It's as good as it's going to get during the pm peak and it is not difficult for passengers to change at London Bridge for southbound services.

Even if by some miracle, Southeastern sent the current services from Maidstone East/Ashford via Maidstone East to run from Victoria or Blackfriars again (like they should be), I'm not sure those paths would be best utilised providing a link from Charing Cross when the Greenwich line is already the most frequent, and the most augmented by other lines. Of all the SE Metro routes, Greenwich does genuinely have it the best. When there's disruption, Greenwich line passengers use the Jubilee line, DLR and the Elizabeth line. When there's disruption on the Sidcup line, you use a bus from Lewisham which is not very fun during the PM peak or at all.

 

[stevieinselby]

Greenwich to Penge East for instance. Quickest way I can see is DLR to Lewisham, then SE to Clock House, then walk to Kent House and go one stop to Penge East.

The quickest route by public transport seems to be 177 bus from Greenwich to New Cross Gate, then Windrush from New Cross Gate to Penge West, then a short walk.

 

[Brubulus]

It's 24 minutes from Abbey Wood to Tottenham Court Road, and from there it's 3 mins to Charing Cross. On the other hand, it's at least 40 mins for a hypothetical direct service from Abbey Wood to Charing Cross.

The best thing that could be done for that area would be an extension of the Elizabeth Line to Dartford, and the termination of existing services at Abbey Wood, with a 6tph shuttle from Cannon Street to Abbey Wood, as an Overground line. This would require infrastructure to convert to AC and build extra tracks between Slade Green and Dartford. (The existing outer island would be used as bays for the new service)

Rainham - Luton should be replaced with Orpington- Luton all day. There's definitely an argument to run 4tph all day on the Catford Loop.

I'm not sure how helpful a choice of termini really is, as people seem to react best to clear and frequent timetables and providing 2tph to one location and 2tph to another doesn't work for a short distance metro service

Brockley high level is probably a good idea for overall connectivity, though there is the issue that if you want to avoid termini-mixing, trains to Victoria aren't that helpful so a pragmatic attitude has to be taken.

 

[NorthKent1989]

People can and should change at London Bridge. And get on with it. Also, Tottenham Court Road is firmly the West End, especially now with the Dean St exit! Quickest transport egress into Soho!

Now that the EL exists, there are so many one-seat rides for anyone to numerous parts of town, that the few exception complaints are moot. Even then, there is a London Bridge and Cannon St choice. Or for CX only people, they have LB and Waterloo East also.

Many routes have a single terminus and have to lump it. The SE network is spoilt for choice vs others.

That’s all well and good if LB was an actual good interchange which it isn’t especially the trek downstairs wading through crowds waiting for trains, often many others have to wait for trains to go as they’re packed before I can get on.

If they kept the bridge linking the platforms to separate those waiting for trains and interchanging passengers I might agree with you.

Cannon Street is a dead zone even on weekends it’s hardly Liverpool Street/Bishopsgate

they have the most trains on this route than any other route on southeastern

only if the Thameslink works, if that fails which it regularly does, then Deptford-Westcombe is down to 2tph and with large gaps of two trains 7 minutes apart then a 23 minute wait that’s nearly early 90s levels of service
No Lewisham trains on a Sunday either which brings the line down to 4tph

None if this has anything to do with the EL it’s just SE have long ran their metro services into managed decline years before the EL was ever built, the EL arriving gave SE an excuse to not run a proper service on the metro lines over on the Woolwich/Bexkeyheath side, which is why so many people favour TfL taking over SE as a London Overground service, LO services are back at pre Covid levels, the stations are manned from the first to the last train, and new rolling stock is brought in, with TfL’s finances being dire a takeover won’t happen but before I was on the fence but seeing the shocking state of SE stations and trains I’m more in favour of it

I'm not sure how helpful a choice of termini really is, as people seem to react best to clear and frequent timetables and providing 2tph to one location and 2tph to another doesn't work for a short distance metro service

We coped with it for many years, now we have “1 line to 1 terminal” people have given up on SE, but Charing Cross has always been the popular choice even during the 6 month overlap where the EL ran alongside CHX trains the latter still had good loadings, the city is good only in peaks but Cannon Street is a dead zone outside of the peaks

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 8 Oct 2025 ==

That’s a good point. On the Jubilee Line as far as Bond Street it only begins to empty at Canada Water. Hence why getting a Thameslink connection through Sydenham would be so great. Or at least restoring a service to Victoria along the Catford Loop

Victoria service on the Catford loop? The Victoria to Gillingham via Denmark Hill service you mean?

And yes agree that the Sydenham Corridor needs Thameslink more than the Woolwich corridor does

As I’ve always said cross south London connections are equally important, Victoria to Lewisham should be 4tph as originally planned.

 

[ScotGG]

Yep the Thameslink trains run close to the remaining SE services so post-cuts there's some sizable gaps which for a highly built up urban area in inner London is poor.

LO wouldn't do it. They didn't do and recovered much faster Liz line or no Liz.

I don't mind changing at London Bridge and one terminal per line but simplifying routes was always based on retaining regular services to London Bridge as then existed. Then it was simplified and barely a year later (?) the metro routes saw cuts on services to London Bridge for changing to other services.

 

[cle]

Yep the Thameslink trains run close to the remaining SE services so post-cuts there's some sizable gaps which for a highly built up urban area in inner London is poor.

LO wouldn't do it. They didn't do and recovered much faster Liz line or no Liz.

I don't mind changing at London Bridge and one terminal per line but simplifying routes was always based on retaining regular services to London Bridge as then existed. Then it was simplified and barely a year later (?) the metro routes saw cuts on services to London Bridge for changing to other services.

I do agree that the works (LB, Tanners Hill) to simplify crossing moves and pair lines better should have led to more services, not less. you would have to be very strict, but then repay the debt in frequency.

Taking it further, Cannon St should be metro/Dartford lines only - and especially towards Greenwich should be (outer branch) tube frequency. Charing Cross being only outer services... the Orpington slows being something of a sticking point.

The other one is the purpose of Victoria-Lewisham... and giving it a whole thing - for instance, does Vic-Lewisham take on all Sidcup, or better, all Orpington service? And a few more semi-s call at Grove Park and Chislehurst intermittently in peaks. Hither Green would have the Sidcup services... etc.. and by then, Lewisham would have the Bakerloo so hopefully that helps (plus many services to change onto) - and extras could be via the released Hayes paths - including a fast line service which could take a Grove Park / Chislehurst / Elmstead Woods call potentially.

 

[MatthewE707]

What do you think would be an ideal service pattern (peak or off-peak) for the Southeastern/Southern/Thameslink metro routes, without restrictions?

 

[cle]

What do you think would be an ideal service pattern (peak or off-peak) for the Southeastern/Southern/Thameslink metro routes, without restrictions?

Very tough - and of course there will be reasons why not but I would say:

2tph Cannon St - Rainham (via Blackheath and Abbey Wood - faster)
4tph Cannon St - Greenwich - Bexleyheath looper
4tph Cannon St - Dartford (via Greenwich)
4tph Cannon St - Bexleyheath - Greenwich looper
4tph Cannon St - Dartford/Gravesend (via Bexleyheath)

4tph Cannon St - Sidcup - Dartford
2tph Victoria - Lewisham - Sidcup - Gillingham (faster)

2tph Victoria - Lewisham - Grove Park - Orpington
2tph Charing Cross - Lewisham - Grove Park - Orpington

for those lines.

I would add more longer distance service from Charing Cross (per the newer Maidstones), and make ex-Victoria services more stopper/semi in nature. Victoria service:
6tph Medway/Otford/Sevenoaks points - all: Herne Hill, Beckenham Junction, Bromley South...
6tph Orpington all stations - leaving 2 mins after the above. Flighting should work out ok.

 

[Railcar]

Capital projects in London needing 'Megabucks' as someone said in this thread, would mean further grumbles from those cities North of the Watford Gap, who have had capital projects whipped away from under their noses

 

[Bald Rick]

If they kept the bridge linking the platforms to separate those waiting for trains and interchanging passengers I might agree with you.

That bridge was appalling.

That’s all well and good if LB was an actual good interchange which it isn’t especially the trek downstairs wading through crowds waiting for trains, often many others have to wait for trains to go as they’re packed before I can get on.

I disagree. I find the interchange works very well.

 

[321362]

This would require infrastructure to convert to AC

350/2s and give them a third rail shoe like the /1s anyone?

 

[Bald Rick]

350/2s and give them a third rail shoe like the /1s anyone?

Won’t fit on the Elizabeth Line.

 

[frankmoh]

350/2s and give them a third rail shoe like the /1s anyone?

Lack of underground safety probably. Also new door placement would mean the platform screen doors would be wrong.

 

[cle]

That bridge was appalling.

The one which went to those sad, forgotten platforms (8/9?) - awful...

Capital projects in London needing 'Megabucks' as someone said in this thread, would mean further grumbles from those cities North of the Watford Gap, who have had capital projects whipped away from under their noses

Not grumbles in a fantastical thread!

Honestly, people south of the Watford Gap can barely breathe in this forum without being tone-policed about others' hardships.

 

[Class15]

Not grumbles in a fantastical thread!

Honestly, people south of the Watford Gap can barely breathe in this forum without being tone-policed about others' hardships.

Agreed 100%. Just because the north has been let down doesn’t mean the south hasn’t been too.

 

[Bald Rick]

Capital projects in London needing 'Megabucks' as someone said in this thread, would mean further grumbles from those cities North of the Watford Gap, who have had capital projects whipped away from under their noses

Plenty of projects in the south have had capital projects ‘whipped away’, and often at later stages of development. Woking flyover, Ely, Oxford electrification, Thames Valley branches electrification, Heathrow Western link, East Croydon / Windmill Bridge, Clapham Junction redevelopment, Victoria redevelopment, Bakerloo Line extension, Bakerloo / Central Lines new trains, Piccadilly Line resignalling, Croydon tram extensions x2, Crossrail 2, etc etc.

 

[Mr. SW]

All this chit-chat reminded ne of a time about seven years ago when I tried to make sense of the lines south of the river (I was middle-aged, I had time on my hands etc...) so I came up with the idea of creating a node diagram, to see if it would enlighten me to what could be done, and I came up with this. It's a little old now, and I think there are a few minor errors.

When studying the lines south of the river, I noticed something very odd. In spite of the four competing companies that built lines almost randomly across the area between the Thames and the North Downs, they sort of made a grid, albeit tilted at about 40 degrees. Then I could further simplify the network right down as this.

From this I created a new diagram.

This shows the most basic way you can travel between each node, thus tracing out routes between destinations. You should be able to work out the station names from the two-letter codes. (I can't see any errors, but their maybe a few lurking.) You can see the diagonal grid, particularly in the central section. I've popped in the Crystal Palace (High Level) and Bricklayers Arms branches to amuse. The Overground to Battersea has been missed as well as a connection between WB West Brompton and the knot of lines between CJ Clapham Junction and the lines coming out of VT Victoria. Also, take note, things have changed since this diagram was created. Apologies. And 'Tramlink'

Brockley is not shown as it is not a node, but should the high level platforms be reinstated, then it would be. It is between NH Nunhead and LS Lewisham.
Note the Bakerloo extension to Lewisham is shown, Crossrail 2 is indicated just above WM Wimbledon as per an old proposal. The DLR extension to Thamesmead isn't shown as the proposals then were to go to Barking Riverside. Neither is the West London Orbital proposal shown.

However, the diagram can be used to test the possibilities of extra services and interchanges. The situation at BT Brixton can be seen (as discussed above) as is the situation at LJ Loughborough Junction.

Perhaps a system of colours and nomenclature similar to that used by the New York Subway should be adopted.

Also, with the expansion of Gatwick, a lot of extra traffic will have to be accommodated but that is being discussed elsewhere.

 

[frankmoh]

All this chit-chat reminded ne of a time about seven years ago when I tried to make sense of the lines south of the river (I was middle-aged, I had time on my hands etc...) so I came up with the idea of creating a node diagram, to see if it would enlighten me to what could be done, and I came up with this. It's a little old now, and I think there are a few minor errors.

When studying the lines south of the river, I noticed something very odd. In spite of the four competing companies that built lines almost randomly across the area between the Thames and the North Downs, they sort of made a grid, albeit tilted at about 40 degrees. Then I could further simplify the network right down as this.
View attachment 190009
From this I created a new diagram.
View attachment 190010
This shows the most basic way you can travel between each node, thus tracing out routes between destinations. You should be able to work out the station names from the two-letter codes. (I can't see any errors, but their maybe a few lurking.) You can see the diagonal grid, particularly in the central section. I've popped in the Crystal Palace (High Level) and Bricklayers Arms branches to amuse. The Overground to Battersea has been missed as well as a connection between WB West Brompton and the knot of lines between CJ Clapham Junction and the lines coming out of VT Victoria. Also, take note, things have changed since this diagram was created. Apologies. And 'Tramlink'

It's still Tramlink at Elmers End if I recall. The signs at that station are all slightly wrong anyway, you cannot get a tram direct from EE to New Addington, and trains to New Cross haven't run in 3 years. 2 pieces of tape would sort that out.

This map is a good way of showing how South London's railways are just very, very complicated. Victorian shenanigans yet again.

 

[NorthKent1989]

That bridge was appalling.




I disagree. I find the interchange works very well.

A new bridge obviously, and a bridge would be better to separate customers interchanging and customers leaving the station, it doesn’t work for everyone.

 

[leytongabriel]

A service on the Crystal Palace line via East Croydon?

 

[izvor]

From this I created a new diagram.

It does highlight the number of lines that cross without interchange, doesn't it? What a fascinating diagram!

 

[NorthKent1989]

What do you think would be an ideal service pattern (peak or off-peak) for the Southeastern/Southern/Thameslink metro routes, without restrictions?

Greenwich line:
6tph CST to Slade Green, 2tph continuing to Gravesend, 2tph loop to Bexleyheath line, 2tph loop to Sidcup line.

Woolwich line:
If we’re going to be lumbered with Thameslink then I’d reroute it at Charlton to serve Blackheath and Lewisham, and cut back from Luton to Kentish Town, if returned back to SE I’d make this the Victoria service calling only at Denmark Hill.

Bexleyheath line:
4tph CST to Barnhurst, 2tph loop back to Woolwich / Greenwich, 2tph continue to Dartford
2tph Victoria to Gravesend

Sidcup line:
2tph CST to Crayford then loop back to Woolwich / Greenwich (not calling at Lewisham)
2tph CHX to Gravesend (calling at Lewisham)

Of course though ideally I’d love it for CHX trains to return on all lines.

All this chit-chat reminded ne of a time about seven years ago when I tried to make sense of the lines south of the river (I was middle-aged, I had time on my hands etc...) so I came up with the idea of creating a node diagram, to see if it would enlighten me to what could be done, and I came up with this. It's a little old now, and I think there are a few minor errors.

When studying the lines south of the river, I noticed something very odd. In spite of the four competing companies that built lines almost randomly across the area between the Thames and the North Downs, they sort of made a grid, albeit tilted at about 40 degrees. Then I could further simplify the network right down as this.
View attachment 190009
From this I created a new diagram.
View attachment 190010
This shows the most basic way you can travel between each node, thus tracing out routes between destinations. You should be able to work out the station names from the two-letter codes. (I can't see any errors, but their maybe a few lurking.) You can see the diagonal grid, particularly in the central section. I've popped in the Crystal Palace (High Level) and Bricklayers Arms branches to amuse. The Overground to Battersea has been missed as well as a connection between WB West Brompton and the knot of lines between CJ Clapham Junction and the lines coming out of VT Victoria. Also, take note, things have changed since this diagram was created. Apologies. And 'Tramlink'

Brockley is not shown as it is not a node, but should the high level platforms be reinstated, then it would be. It is between NH Nunhead and LS Lewisham.
Note the Bakerloo extension to Lewisham is shown, Crossrail 2 is indicated just above WM Wimbledon as per an old proposal. The DLR extension to Thamesmead isn't shown as the proposals then were to go to Barking Riverside. Neither is the West London Orbital proposal shown.

However, the diagram can be used to test the possibilities of extra services and interchanges. The situation at BT Brixton can be seen (as discussed above) as is the situation at LJ Loughborough Junction.

Perhaps a system of colours and nomenclature similar to that used by the New York Subway should be adopted.

Also, with the expansion of Gatwick, a lot of extra traffic will have to be accommodated but that is being discussed elsewhere.

It’s a fantastic diagram

 

[Farnborough]

I am sure there are good reasons for it, but for me that the New Cross spur of the Windrush line terminates where it does, rather than at the regional centre at Lewisham seems a bit odd.

Could that spur be extended from New Cross down to Lewisham? Especially if the Hayes line is Underground-ized?

 

[brad465]

Greenwich line:
6tph CST to Slade Green, 2tph continuing to Gravesend, 2tph loop to Bexleyheath line, 2tph loop to Sidcup line.

Woolwich line:
If we’re going to be lumbered with Thameslink then I’d reroute it at Charlton to serve Blackheath and Lewisham, and cut back from Luton to Kentish Town, if returned back to SE I’d make this the Victoria service calling only at Denmark Hill.

Bexleyheath line:
4tph CST to Barnhurst, 2tph loop back to Woolwich / Greenwich, 2tph continue to Dartford
2tph Victoria to Gravesend

Sidcup line:
2tph CST to Crayford then loop back to Woolwich / Greenwich (not calling at Lewisham)
2tph CHX to Gravesend (calling at Lewisham)

Of course though ideally I’d love it for CHX trains to return on all lines.

6tph terminating at Gravesend will be very difficult (it would need more than the bay platform and P1 terminators would have to avoid any through services using it). 2tph here would have to carry onto the Medway Towns realistically, or be curtailed at Dartford.

 

[frankmoh]

I am sure there are good reasons for it, but for me that the New Cross spur of the Windrush line terminates where it does, rather than at the regional centre at Lewisham seems a bit odd.

Could that spur be extended from New Cross down to Lewisham? Especially if the Hayes line is Underground-ized?

is there still a crossover from the East London line to the South Eastern Main Line at New Cross? I always assumed it was removed a very long time ago. Your plan to go to Lewisham is good in theory but there is not much space to put a new terminating platform.

 

[cle]

Also now largely duplicated by the Bakerloo plans - which would take you to NXG - with (by then, more than) double the ELL frequency, and of course, NXG offers the southbound services too which might be very useful.

 

[stevieinselby]

I am sure there are good reasons for it, but for me that the New Cross spur of the Windrush line terminates where it does, rather than at the regional centre at Lewisham seems a bit odd.

Could that spur be extended from New Cross down to Lewisham? Especially if the Hayes line is Underground-ized?

At the moment, the branch from the East London Line only runs into the bay platform at New Cross, so that is where Windrush Line trains terminate – there is no track connection to the through platforms.
It would be fairly easy to add a connection to the down line through platform C, but for access from the up line you would need a new crossover after platform A and then a new chord – certainly not impossible, but it would need some infrastructure work.
But then what? Yes, you could send them to Lewisham – but there are no bay platforms at Lewisham, and all of the through platforms are far too busy to terminate and reverse a train every 15 minutes.
Catford Bridge might be a possibility if the Hayes Line isn't being tubeified, add a new crossover there to allow down trains to reverse in the up platform, you should be able to fit in a 15-minute frequency terminating between the 15-minute frequency of the Hayes Line, I can't see demand in the low-density affluent suburbs further out being sufficient to sustain the additional service. If the Hayes Line is tubeified then I think the odds of adding another 4tph Windrush to it are very slim indeed.

 

[ScotGG]

Hard to see why it's be worth extending LO trains that are just 5 cars through Lewisham and beyond. Better to extend train lengths on other lines eg longer services via Catford Bridge to Hayes. Can it take 12-car with SDO and new stock?

That would support the many thousands of new homes planned in Catford and Lower Sydenham.

 

[NorthKent1989]

I'm starting to wonder if the axing of Cannon Street services on the Hayes line was a result of this Lizzie Line shakeup for Southeastern. That being said when it was still running I never had a need to go to the City, I just changed at London Bridge, which is the sensible thing to do.

I think it was more to do with Lewisham Junction

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 10 Oct 2025 ==

I am sure there are good reasons for it, but for me that the New Cross spur of the Windrush line terminates where it does, rather than at the regional centre at Lewisham seems a bit odd.

Could that spur be extended from New Cross down to Lewisham? Especially if the Hayes line is Underground-ized?

As for extending the ELL to Lewisham, there is no turn back point there but if this were to happen you could extend Blackheath and reopen the bay platform there, but I doubt if any extension to this line will happen.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 10 Oct 2025 ==

6tph terminating at Gravesend will be very difficult (it would need more than the bay platform and P1 terminators would have to avoid any through services using it). 2tph here would have to carry onto the Medway Towns realistically, or be curtailed at Dartford.

Well the Bexleyheath line to/from Victoria can be curtailed to Dartford, this would give Gravesend 4tph to Abbey Wood, 2tph semi fast, 2tph stopping.