Gloucester box upgrade

[The Planner]

Gloucester Panel (PSB) opened in 1968. The same year as Swindon Panel (PSB) and just two years before Bristol Panel PSB (first phase 1970, last phase 1974).

Just like other large (for back then) resignalling schemes, it would have been brought into use in stages over months or years as it replaced hundreds of mechanical signal boxes.

So, another day or so, to complete the (more difficult than expected) rewiring is small fry.

But obviously, a right pain for people travelling by bus rather than on the train that they were expecting.

Going to cost a wedge in compensation that the region didn't factor in spending.

 

[Annetts key]

Here's an example (from a different relay room from elsewhere) showing a more modern relay rack and it's wiring. The relays are on the other side of the rack. The racks at Gloucester Panel may well still have wiring (cable) trees in a bundle and using ties rather than trunking like in this photo.

 

[father_jack]

So, another day or so, to complete the (more difficult than expected) rewiring is small fry.

But obviously, a right pain for people travelling by bus rather than on the train that they were expecting.

Sorry no. Not acceptable.

0604 ex GCR WTT train gets to Temple Meads 0656.

The bus plan 0600 ex GCR with change at BPW seems to get people to Temple Meads at 0828 !!!

Realtime Trains | 2T03 0814 Bristol Parkway to Bristol Temple Meads | 06/10/2025

Real-time train running information for 2T03 0814 departure from Bristol Parkway to Bristol Temple Meads on 06/10/2025. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

The passenger has a livelihood to sustain.

 

[Snow1964]

Update from GWR website

Please note that these works were originally due to end on Sunday 5 October but will now continue into Monday 6 October.

During these dates buses replace all trains at Gloucester.

Trains run between London Paddington/Swindon and Cheltenham Spa or between Bristol Temple Meads and Worcester from Monday 29 September to Friday 3 October but these services won’t stop at Gloucester.

Replacement buses are planned by Great Western Railway between:

• Cheltenham Spa and Gloucester – all dates
• Worcester Foregate Street and Gloucester – weekends
• Worcester Shrub Hill and Gloucester (via Worcestershire Parkway) – Monday 6 October only
• Bristol Parkway and Gloucester – weekends and Monday 6 October
• Kemble and Gloucester – Saturday 4 October and Monday 6 October
• Swindon and Gloucester – Sunday 5 October only
• Cam & Dursley and Gloucester – Monday 29 September to Friday 3 October

CrossCountry trains will only run between Birmingham New Street and the South West from Monday 29 September to Friday 3 October.

At weekends and also on Monday 6 October, these services can only operate in the region between Bristol Parkway and Paignton, Plymouth or Penzance.

Replacement buses are planned by CrossCountry between:

• Cheltenham Spa and Bristol Parkway (non-stop) – weekends and Monday 6 October
• Worcestershire Parkway and Ashchurch for Tewkesbury – Monday 29 September to Friday 3 October

Transport for Wales train services will only run between Cardiff Central and Lydney instead of Gloucester or Cheltenham Spa on all dates.

Replacement buses are planned by Transport for Wales between:

• Lydney and Gloucester – some extending to Cheltenham Spa

The maps show that Monday 6th will have buses as per the weekends, not the second map, which is weekdays, Mon-Fri 29Sep-3Oct

Planned Engineering Work and Disruption | Great Western Railway

Find out about planned engineering works, travel disruption and changes to Great Western Railway's published train timetables here.

www.gwr.com

 

[father_jack]

A proverbial pigs ear of a document....

 

[Snow1964]

Cross Country have also updated their website regarding the over running engineering works, however they have announced they won't update journey planners until Sunday.

They have provided a map with buses running Cheltenham - Gloucester - Lydney and also Cheltenham - Bristol Parkway.

They are also saying anyone with tickets for Monday can use it free of charge on Tuesday or Wednesday (do they actually mean free as worded, or did they really mean without amendment fees or supplements).

Travel Information | CrossCountry Trains

www.crosscountrytrains.co.uk

TfW have added following to their website

Please note that due to on-going engineering work a revised timetable will operate on Monday 6 October, online journey planners will be amended shortly.

Transport for Wales:​

Saturday 4 to Sunday 5 October:
Buses will replace trains between Lydney and Gloucester / Cheltenham Spa.

Monday 6 October:
A revised timetable will be published shortly.

Rail improvement works | Transport for Wales

Transport for Wales | Buy Cheap Train Tickets and Check Train Times

tfw.wales

Seems updating journey planners is not urgent in either company

 

[QueensCurve]

Many thanks for the detailed information above.

It may be off-topic, but surely Gloucester is overdue significant remodelling of the track layout?

 

[The Planner]

Many thanks for the detailed information above.

It may be off-topic, but surely Gloucester is overdue significant remodelling of the track layout?

Depends on if its no longer suitable to deliver what is required of it.

 

[edwin_m]

It was over-rationalised at the time of resignalling when the services at the former Eastgate station as well as Central were all expected to use one of the parts of the long main platform or (IIRC) one west-facing bay. Fortunately the eastbound platform was kept for parcels and came back into passenger use, and with that change it doesn't seem noticeably pushed for capacity.

 

[Sir Felix Pole]

I'd build a new station at Barnwood, as BR(W) originally intended, for XC South West and GWR Paddington services to call without the time penalty of reversal. Central would remain for XC South Wales services and the GWR stoppers.

 

[father_jack]

.

Many thanks for the detailed information above.

It may be off-topic, but surely Gloucester is overdue significant remodelling of the track layout?

With this rewiring instead of any major resignalling and movement to a ROC I don't think any is going to change in the area for a very long time.

 

[zwk500]

I'd build a new station at Barnwood, as BR(W) originally intended, for XC South West and GWR Paddington services to call without the time penalty of reversal. Central would remain for XC South Wales services and the GWR stoppers.

Building one in the south of the city makes more sense nowadays. If White City/Tuffley area it provide a good chunk of the city with a very competitive set of commuting options, if on the outskirts it would fulfill a P&R function. And being south of Gloucester it would be able to interchange with services from Bristol and Swindon terminating at Gloucester as well as the local services that extend to Worcester which Barnwood would be interchanging with.

If we were in speculative ideas there's be a whole lot of other things to say...

 

[Class 170101]

Cross Country have also updated their website regarding the over running engineering works, however they have announced they won't update journey planners until Sunday.

They have provided a map with buses running Cheltenham - Gloucester - Lydney and also Cheltenham - Bristol Parkway.

They are also saying anyone with tickets for Monday can use it free of charge on Tuesday or Wednesday (do they actually mean free as worded, or did they really mean without amendment fees or supplements).

Travel Information | CrossCountry Trains

www.crosscountrytrains.co.uk

TfW have added following to their website

Rail improvement works | Transport for Wales

Transport for Wales | Buy Cheap Train Tickets and Check Train Times

tfw.wales

Seems updating journey planners is not urgent in either company

The Operators probably have been working on the train plan over the weekend with minimal validation over the weekend by NR as well in order to get it published for Monday.

And the above assumes that it isn't being done under control arrangements in which case they will be supervising running today's service as well as planning for Monday's service. One pair of hands and all that.

 

[Snow1964]

The Operators probably have been working on the train plan over the weekend with minimal validation over the weekend by NR as well in order to get it published for Monday.

It's now 6am on Monday, and guess what, the Cross Country website says

A revised timetable will operate on Monday 6 October, online journey planners will be amended on Sunday 5 October. Updates will also be provided on the National Rail Enquiries webpage.

So XC say look at National Rail Enquires, who say

There will be no CrossCountry services operating between Cheltenham Spa, and Bristol Parkway / Cardiff Central. A revised timetable will operate and will be published shortly.

So clearly published for Monday, does not mean (in railway speak), before Monday starts, as services are now running, and paying customers are still in the dark.

Having published an amended timetable for last Monday-Friday, it is not as if they wasn't an amended weekday timetable that would need writing from scratch.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 6 Oct 2025 ==

Just spotted GWR have added following at end of message on their Gloucester disruption page

***
We are waiting for confirmation of when lines in the Gloucester area will reopen later in the week and will keep this message updated as we know more. Please check your journey before travelling for the latest information.
***
We're sorry for the disruption to your journey today. If you are more than 15 minutes late arriving into your final destination due to this amended timetable being in place, you may be eligible for compensation under our Delay Repay scheme - visit gwr.com/help-and-support/refunds-and-compensation/delay-repay for details.

 

[Harpo]

If you are more than 15 minutes late arriving into your final destination due to this amended timetable being in place, you may be eligible for compensation under our Delay Repay scheme

Lets hope for consistency and no ‘applicable’ vs ‘amended’ nonsense later. From any TOC.

 

[The exile]

Unlike last week, XC appear to be running nothing northwards from Bristol Parkway this morning.

 

[zwk500]

Unlike last week, XC appear to be running nothing northwards from Bristol Parkway this morning.

The data maps suggest this is likely because the line is currently under possession north of Yate:

[Screenshot from Signalmaps.com showing the line north of Yate with 'ITEM' '-191' and '****' in the data Berths.]

 

[Annetts key]

The data maps suggest this is likely because the line is currently under possession north of Yate:
View attachment 189758
[Screenshot from Signalmaps.com showing the line north of Yate with 'ITEM' '-191' and '****' in the data Berths.]

Looks like nearly the whole area controlled by Gloucester Panel (PSB) except for Cheltenham Spa to Ashchurch is under possession.

Maybe some of the 110V AC or 50V DC power distribution wiring in the relay room at Gloucester is causing problems?

 

[Pete_uk]

I was going to ask how far the wires needing replacement were as it looks like a huge chunk of the area is being worked on.

 

[Snow1964]

Update on GWR webpage for engineering work

Please note that these works were originally due to end on Sunday 5 October but will now continue into Wednesday 8 October.

No trains can operate between Gloucester and Cheltenham Spa, Kemble, Bristol Parkway or Lydney and limited rail replacement services will run instead.

Replacement buses are planned between:

• Cheltenham Spa and Gloucester
• Bristol Parkway and Gloucester
• Kemble and Gloucester
• Lydney and Gloucester/Cheltenham Spa
• Cheltenham Spa and Bristol Parkway (non-stop)

Important to note
Trains are expected to resume on Wednesday 8 October but services will not run to the normal timetable, with many trains out of position owing to the over-running work. Customer should check their journeys before travelling.

 

[JohnW1]

Appears to have gone back another 24 hours now until Wednesday morning. Interestingly I am currently on Coss Country 1V48 and they have announced that the reason the service is terminating at Cheltenham is the engineering works in the Gloucester area we're delayed due to the high winds of storm Amy!!!!!!

 

[Royston Vasey]

Many thanks for the detailed information above.

It may be off-topic, but surely Gloucester is overdue significant remodelling of the track layout?

If they'd known they'd have a 4½ day possession, they probably could have done it!

 

[JohnW1]

Originally a 9 day possession from the 27th September until the early morning 6th October.

 

[zwk500]

If they'd known they'd have a 4½ day possession, they probably could have done it!

Given the geometry at Gloucester I'd be surprised if there was much you could change without losing either flexibility or parallel running.

 

[Annetts key]

I was going to ask how far the wires needing replacement were as it looks like a huge chunk of the area is being worked on.

If it is just the wiring in the relay room that is part of the PSB, they are not very long.

In the relay room with the Western Region free wired relay based interlocking design, there are essentially two sets of signalling systems side by side.

There is the local interlocking. This controls the signalling in the local area. Typically within five miles (although it varies, as there is no fixed distance, it can be less or greater than this, it partly depends on where the next remote interlocking are located). This system uses the bulk of the rubber insulated wiring.

Everywhere else is controlled via remote control communication systems. These communicate with remote interlockings housed in their own buildings many miles away from the PSB. But there are still large numbers of relays and wiring for them in the relay room at the PSB to interface between the signallers switches, buttons and indications and the remote control equipment.

In many WR PSBs of this age, the wiring for the above is PVC insulated wire. That normally does not degrade in the same way as rubber insulation. But, some of the rack to rack cables and some of the wiring or cables that carry power may be rubber insulated.

On the power distribution racks / bus-bar / fuse racks, all the wiring for both systems are intermixed, not separated.

The fact that they are overruning so badly may mean that they have found a lot more problems than they expected.

Unfortunately, that's not uncommon when working on old equipment if little or no work was undertaken in recent years because the expectation was that the whole lot would be replaced.

 

[Pete_uk]

Thank you Annetts key.

Gloucester seems to work well given its services at the moment.

 

[MadMac]

The fact that they are overrunning so badly may mean that they have found a lot more problems than they expected.

Unfortunately, that's not uncommon when working on old equipment if little or no work was undertaken in recent years because the expectation was that the whole lot would be replaced.

100%. As a fellow “battle scarred veteran“ of these jobs, I can fully testify that taking on a job in a 55 year old installation will inevitably yield some “surprises”, no matter how much prep is done in an effort to avoid them.

 

[rower40]

I took the long way round (from Derby to Bristol) to avoid the blockage: changing at Birmingham, Shrewsbury and Newport. Home tomorrow (to York) will be via Paddington and Kings Cross.

 

[Belperpete]

I was surprised to see on Friday that TfW Journeyplanner was already advising of train cancellations on Monday due to "over-running engineering works". I was surprised that they knew so far in advance that engineering works would over-run, but having discovered this thread I now know why.

When I started on the Western, I was astonished to find the works staff at Reading building replacement relay racks for existing interlockings. I was told they did this when they had no other work to do. As MarkyT says, the new rack could then be swapped in to replace an existing rack, by simply disconnecting the rack-to-rack multicore cables on the terminals at the top of the rack, lifting out the old rack and putting in the new rack, and reconnecting the multicores. By this means, an interlocking could effectively be renewed rack by rack. It is a pity this option doesn't appear to have been used for this work at Gloucester, with new racks ready-wired and basic testing ready-done prior to the shut-down.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 6 Oct 2025 ==

It's unlikely much equipment from OOC would have been used in the building of Exeter or Westbury. Some maybe. But spares and decommissioned parts would have been made available to other areas where the same type of equipment was in use.

Westbury and Exeter didn't reuse any equipment from elsewhere as far as I am aware. Whereas traditional WR interlockings used what are generically termed "Post Office relays" (as used in traditional telephone exchanges) for non-safety functions, Westbury and Exeter used a more modern form of non-safety relay, with IIRC a number of such relays inside a case similar to a BR930 case, but smaller. These relays proved troublesome almost from the start. In addition, Exeter used a "panel processor" computer system for many of the non-safety functions. This was developed by GEC, but they soon lost interest even before it was commissioned when it became apparent that it was going to be a one-off, and they weren't going to be selling any more as it was effectively bespoke to the WR. In addition, both Westbury and Exeter were built to electrification standards, with significant circuit differences to other WR interlockings.

The TD used at the time for the new PSBs was the then new Western Region Solid State Train Describer system (SSTD). The prototype system was IIRC first used at Swindon. Then later, SSTD was installed in some of the other 1960s and 1970s Western PSBs to replace the electromechanical WRTD (Western Region Train Describer) that was unreliable.

SSTD could handle more characters than WRTD. WRTD could only have 0 to 9 in the first, third and fourth "digits", with ten letters only in the second digit. SSTD could have characters 0 to 9, L, R and B in the first, third and fourth "digits". And characters Z, A, B, C, F, E, M, O, V, X, D, G, H, J, K, L, N, P, R, S, T, U, W, Y and * in the second digit. The four digit display could also show the "_t*_" (where "_" means blank) fault code if the cable connection to it was disconnected.

The Vaughan 4M TD system was used later to replace some SSTD systems. When the SSTD system at Bristol was replaced with a Vaughan 4M system, all the spare SSTD cards and the SSTD equipment cubicles were transferred to Westbury, as their SSTD system was still in use at the time.

While SSTD could handle more characters, any descriptions it received from traditional WR relay TDs would be limited to what that system could handle. Likewise, any trains that were going to pass to another box would have needed a description that WRTD could handle. So even though SSTD could handle more characters, I suspect that in practice most trains would have been given descriptions using the limited WR character set.

As I recall, there were two versions of the SSTD keyboard used by signallers to interpose descriptions into the system, one with the full range of characters, and one with the limited WRTD character set. Some boxes were provided with the limited keyboard to prevent descriptions being used that couldn't be transmitted properly to adjacent boxes.

The original TD at Gloucester was relay-based WRTD. The TDs used at Westbury and Exeter were WR SSTD, as already mentioned, however "Solid State" didn't mean that it was computer-based. It was basically a more modern version of the old relay system, using discrete electronic circuits. It was developed by Phil Fortey of the Reading electronics section (initially as a college project, IIRC), and so was unofficially known as the "Forteyscriber". Instead of relay sets, it had electronic cards, with most of the card functions replicating those in the old relay system, and with the same designation (e.g. a J card in SSTD did the same as a J set in WRTD). The SSTD obtained its information from the relay interlockings in exactly the same way as the WRTD, by means of dedicated inputs from relay contacts. Only the information necessary for the TD to function would be input.

I understand that all the old WRTDs and SSTDs have been replaced, mainly by Vaughan TDs. However, as edwin says, these used the same limited number of inputs as the old TDs, to avoid making significant alterations to the relay interlockings. So this is the only information that they can make available to other systems.

Train Describers that get their information by a digital link from computer-based interlockings, usually get full information about all signal aspects, route setting, etc. whether they need it or not. With systems such as the Integrated Electronic Control System used in ROCs, this information is also inherently available to associated computer-based systems such as Trust, etc.

 

[edwin_m]

Train Describers that get their information by a digital link from computer-based interlockings, usually get full information about all signal aspects, route setting, etc. whether they need it or not. With systems such as the Integrated Electronic Control System used in ROCs, this information is also inherently available to associated computer-based systems such as Trust, etc.

The IECC as introduced around 1990 that I was familiar with didn't have a separate train describer as such - it was a software function in the same set of computers that provided the VDU displays and manual route setting for the signaller. So it essentially had access to all that information for free, though I think at that time systems outside the IECC itself only got basic description and berth information.