Audio/visual "next stop" announcements on buses

[jon0844]

I fully understand the sentiment, but be careful of what you wish for. At the margin, there will be some operations that are no longer viable (with or without subsidy) because of the extra costs involved. These won't be handed over to someone else, they will just stop running and not be replaced.

And that is exactly why we have the 'would you rather the bus not run at all if we can't provide next stop information, or a working wheelchair ramp' arguments.

The problem is that without the enforcement, things won't get fixed. It also means that companies won't bother to comply with new regulations in the future because, well, what's the point? The company that makes the most effort doesn't get rewarded*.

* Well, I might argue they do in that if you use buses that are fully accessible, you're more likely going to use them, but to a lot of companies they're not looking at that. It's easier, as you say, to just stop running a service instead. Even the need to give 56 days notice doesn't make much difference as services have been cut with zero notice over the years.. with no way to force an operator to keep running out the notice period.

 

[Observer]

The operators locally that i work with have found that Hanover simply aren't interested in supplying small fleets with Next Stop kit. McKenna Bros are better at being able to supply the Mobitec kit, but the controller is insanely complicated. Even as somebody who has worked with Mobitec kit for twenty years, it doesn't look like any real world usability testing has been carried out on it.

How exactly is the controller complicated? It's the same larger unit (ICU602) that's been available for many years, I believe there's a GPS attachment at the back that allows the unit to trigger the next stop calls.

Seeing how McKenna Brothers have managed to rewire Hanover destination equipment to use Mobitec stuff in order to use the next stop system, it's Hanover's loss if they don't want to supply.

But seeing how complicated this all gets, perhaps sticking to one system is better than having to duplicate your work constantly. Just hope that any rewiring goes in your favour.

 

[Omnidekkalover]

Nottingham city transport has had them on all of their buses since the pandemic at least and has been using it since I believe 2010

 

[Cesarcollie]

How exactly is the controller complicated? It's the same larger unit (ICU602) that's been available for many years, I believe there's a GPS attachment at the back that allows the unit to trigger the next stop calls.

Seeing how McKenna Brothers have managed to rewire Hanover destination equipment to use Mobitec stuff in order to use the next stop system, it's Hanover's loss if they don't want to supply.

But seeing how complicated this all gets, perhaps sticking to one system is better than having to duplicate your work constantly. Just hope that any rewiring goes in your favour.

Have you purchased them and installed them at your bus company? And programmed them?

 

[LucyP]

People talk about enforcement, but if you look at the 2023 Regulations, there are no provisions for enforcment, let alone any sanctions.

 

[Volvodart]

King Coaches 26001-3 have the displays not yet working, but they have not been used on the First Aberdeen 1A service this term even when there is a bus shortage. They would only be on it where there was a bus shortage. Most but not all repowers are the same, but the contractor must not have had enough time allocated to do them all on their recent visit.

 

[Man of Kent]

According to https://www.gov.uk/government/stati.../annual-bus-statistics-year-ending-march-2023


If my arithmetic is correct that's about a tenth of a penny per passenger journey. Surely that's not make a marginal service unviable?

Correct up to a point, although the London patronage should be removed from that figure. Estimating how many other passengers already benefit is perhaps a step too far.

But consider the case of a subsidised market day only bus, that does no other PSV AIR compliant work. OK, possibly extreme, but lumping the entire costs of compliance on 20 passengers a week doesn't end happily.

 

[Dai Corner]

But consider the case of a subsidised market day only bus, that does no other PSV AIR compliant work. OK, possibly extreme, but lumping the entire costs of compliance on 20 passengers a week doesn't end happily.

Yes, that's the sort of service where the driver probably knows where his passengers get off, and which ones might need a gentle prompt. If it's a relief driver the other passengers will. On the odd occasion I've used them I've felt like almost like a (welcome) stranger in a group of friends.

Can anyone tell us how much the kit adds to the cost of a new bus and how much it is to retrofit a non-compliant one?

 

[ACBest]

Yes, that's the sort of service where the driver probably knows where his passengers get off, and which ones might need a gentle prompt. If it's a relief driver the other passengers will. On the odd occasion I've used them I've felt like almost like a (welcome) stranger in a group of friends.

Can anyone tell us how much the kit adds to the cost of a new bus and how much it is to retrofit a non-compliant one?

About £3000-£5000 per bus, depending on specification and supplier.

 

[N1]

Everything in this thread is night and day compared to Bluestar and Unilink in Southampton, that have have next stop announcements and screens fitted to all busses for years and they are usually working. However as they are all older they aren't technically up to standard - they don't announce the service number and destination each stop.

Agreed, there are operators that have been proactive and fitted it prior to it becoming a requirement. Bluestar have had a bit of an advantage in that it is required by Soton Uni as part of the contract, and they often cascade the older Unilink buses internally.

I understand that there are issues getting equipment installed to meet the deadlines, however I have complained to a number of large operators where already installed equipment isn't working or has been turned off by the driver. Some have resulted in responses promising action, but others have not and I have passed complaints on to local Traffic Commissioners in some cases (of course had no response at all).

PSVAIR is relatively new, but I find the whole bus and coach industries approach to accessibility utterly pathetic, PSVAR has been around for 25 years now, and the coach industry in particular is still after exemptions.

I am involved with a local community group that has a few wheelchair member users, and when looking at travel to events in other parts of the UK, don't even bother contacting coach hire companies now. A few have PSVAR compliant coaches but often in the past have forgotten to remove seats, not tested the lift before sending it out or the driver doesn't know how to fit the wheelchair restraints.

 

[Dai Corner]

About £3000-£5000 per bus, depending on specification and supplier.

Thanks. That sounds a lot for a couple of screens, some loudspeakers, an amplifier, cables, a device with less computing power than a cheap smartphone plus labour to install, but not much compared with the annual running cost of a bus.

 

[computerSaysNo]

I was referring to the E400 MMCs above - on the 52 the system only works eastbound because, a month after the route change, it hasn't been programmed to cope with a 52 terminating at Heavygate Avenue. So it just sits showing "Welcome on board the to" and doesn't announce anything.

There's also at least one stop I'm aware of that it still announces despite it being subject to a long-term closure (and eventual relocation).

I got given some basic electronics kit when I was at university - just a numerical keypad, 2x32 LCD character display, microcontroller with WiFi connection, I purchased an old shop receipt thermal printer and paper roll, and I had taken a module on mobile app development, and just in my spare time I knocked together a system which would have worked for announcements; turn on microcontroller, use keypad and screen to select operator, route, direction, starting stop and finishing stop, which was all read from the online database of registered services, when you confirmed the data entered that then set the destination on the LCD screen and sent that information to my mobile app which acted as a ticket machine, I could select tickets, press confirm and they'd be physically printed off.

If I was able to do that in my spare time in third year of university it ought to be easy for a big company like Stagecoach or Hanover to do something similar. I had started trying to add audio announcements too but had trouble getting the Android device to download the stops properly, but something like that ought to be easy to produce for a software company; as long as the government database of registered services is kept up to date - which it should be anyway - then you'd have a system which automatically adapts to planned route changes, you could even add a manual override so the driver or control could add last-minute route or stop changes, part routes and starting long would be done automatically, it just all seems to be a really not that complicated thing up do and yet nobody seems to have done it?

 

[N1]

I got given some basic electronics kit when I was at university - just a numerical keypad, 2x32 LCD character display, microcontroller with WiFi connection, I purchased an old shop receipt thermal printer and paper roll, and I had taken a module on mobile app development, and just in my spare time I knocked together a system which would have worked for announcements; turn on microcontroller, use keypad and screen to select operator, route, direction, starting stop and finishing stop, which was all read from the online database of registered services, when you confirmed the data entered that then set the destination on the LCD screen and sent that information to my mobile app which acted as a ticket machine, I could select tickets, press confirm and they'd be physically printed off.

If I was able to do that in my spare time in third year of university it ought to be easy for a big company like Stagecoach or Hanover to do something similar. I had started trying to add audio announcements too but had trouble getting the Android device to download the stops properly, but something like that ought to be easy to produce for a software company; as long as the government database of registered services is kept up to date - which it should be anyway - then you'd have a system which automatically adapts to planned route changes, you could even add a manual override so the driver or control could add last-minute route or stop changes, part routes and starting long would be done automatically, it just all seems to be a really not that complicated thing up do and yet nobody seems to have done it?

That is exactly the system next stop manufacturers produce. It needs to meet the required Decibel levels described in PSVAIR, as well as screens being visible to the number of passengers reqiured in PSVAIR. Once you have done that, tested for each type of bus, supplied equipment and fitted it £3-5k per bus sounds about right.

 

[Dai Corner]

as long as the government database of registered services is kept up to date -

That reminds me that the NaPTAN database to which you refer, timetables and on-bus announcements don't always agree on what a stop is called.

 

[pepperpot80]

I'll note that the regulations have only come into force for vehicles which didn't previously have a system fitted which is deemed to be partially compliant. Any vehicle that is deemed to be partially compliant is exempt from the full force of the regulations until October 1st 2031.

 

[Man of Kent]

I'm currently on a journey where the retrofitted system has behaved perfectly, until one stop when it suddenly gave the destination and next stop in the opposite direction. No intervention by the driver, and once we were moving, it corrected the direction, but the next stop was blank until we were on top of it. It started working quite normally again after that. I' have also been on buses where it freezes and continues to show the same next stop for the whole journey, and other oddities.

But we are bus operators, not software engineers, and are as frustrated as the passengers that the systems do not work properly.

 

[Dwarfer1979]

I got given some basic electronics kit when I was at university - just a numerical keypad, 2x32 LCD character display, microcontroller with WiFi connection, I purchased an old shop receipt thermal printer and paper roll, and I had taken a module on mobile app development, and just in my spare time I knocked together a system which would have worked for announcements; turn on microcontroller, use keypad and screen to select operator, route, direction, starting stop and finishing stop, which was all read from the online database of registered services, when you confirmed the data entered that then set the destination on the LCD screen and sent that information to my mobile app which acted as a ticket machine, I could select tickets, press confirm and they'd be physically printed off.

If I was able to do that in my spare time in third year of university it ought to be easy for a big company like Stagecoach or Hanover to do something similar. I had started trying to add audio announcements too but had trouble getting the Android device to download the stops properly, but something like that ought to be easy to produce for a software company; as long as the government database of registered services is kept up to date - which it should be anyway - then you'd have a system which automatically adapts to planned route changes, you could even add a manual override so the driver or control could add last-minute route or stop changes, part routes and starting long would be done automatically, it just all seems to be a really not that complicated thing up do and yet nobody seems to have done it?

That is exactly the system next stop manufacturers produce. It needs to meet the required Decibel levels described in PSVAIR, as well as screens being visible to the number of passengers reqiured in PSVAIR. Once you have done that, tested for each type of bus, supplied equipment and fitted it £3-5k per bus sounds about right.

And it needs to be robust enough to survive on a bus for several years, which is a pretty hostile environment for electronics as any user of ticket machines can attest to, adding to the cost of testing and production as the equipment will need to be fairly heavy duty and it then needs to be mass-producible. I would also add that you don't want the drivers to have too much involvement in the system, both because it adds extra work on them and creates a complication that many won't be able/want to deal with and also if you give the drivers an ability to 'innocently' cause the system to stop working some will do so. Our system connects to the destination blind so the driver just need to set the blind and the announcement system will run automatically making it hard to knock over without an obvious and clear display showing the error (in that the blind will be incorrectly set).

 

[Observer]

Have you purchased them and installed them at your bus company? And programmed them?

Aware of some that have and have been told of a few horror stories regarding the retrofitting. Hopefully over time all the issues are ironed out and these can be a lot easier to manage.

My understanding is that the programming of them can be painful to deal with at start but once sorted out the updates aren't too bad. Obviously some locations need GPS coordinates adjusted so they ping at the right places.

 

[Eyersey468]

The thing I can't work out is why they have said buses from 1973 will need to comply, given that they don't comply with any other aspect of PSVAR

 

[N1]

The thing I can't work out is why they have said buses from 1973 will need to comply, given that they don't comply with any other aspect of PSVAR

Because adding pa system and some screens is easier than changing a bus from high to low-floor. And deaf / visually impaired people can still walk up steps.

 

[Eyersey468]

Because adding pa system and some screens is easier than changing a bus from high to low-floor. And deaf / visually impaired people can still walk up steps.

There can't be many buses from the 1970s/80s being used regularly in revenue earning service. I'm by no means against audio visual systems at all.

 

[N1]

There can't be many buses from the 1970s/80s being used regularly in revenue earning service. I'm by no means against audio visual systems at all.

The date is a bit ridiculous. I think they were trying to capture vehicles to be used on rail replacement services, but even they dont have that old buses on them

 

[duncombec]

The dates chosen do give the impression that the cut-off dates were arbitrarily designed by someone in Westminster, because "London has it, can't be that hard, surely". Isn't 1972 the date when vehicles no longer need to be taxed, so was "convenient"?

I hope I'm not misremembering too wildly when I say I was told at my local depot, the people fitting them were getting through three buses a night. The allocation is 86, so that's 29 days just to do one depot... Naturally they aren't the only fitters in the land, but it's no wonder smaller companies that may only have a handful of vehicles, which may be of different types, needing to connect to different sorts of destination display are struggling to find companies willing to talk to them, at least yet. One operator may have a Solo, an E200, an Evora and a coach used on schools, with Hanover destination kit and Ticketer ticket machines. Another, a few miles down the road, may have three coaches, a Streetlite and a Dart, with Mobitec destinations and Transmach ticket machines. Not exactly the sort of thing that lends itself to 'speed of repetition'.

It may be interesting to take a look at the front page of bustimes, which now lists the number of buses it is tracking at morning peak tomorrow and see how many vehicles might need fitting (discounting the PVR in London, which LOTS recorded in March 2024 as 7353).

Those seeking to complain to the Traffic Commissioners are, in essence, doing so for their own virtue. There is currently such a significant backlog of registrations (believed to be into four figures) that the TCs have had to issue formal guidance to operators as to how to proceed. There is anecdotal evidence there is also a delay in processing other mandatory information that were the operators not to have submitted it would be a public inquiry ground. Any suggestion that there would be penalties imposed on operators for not having Audio-Visual displays is as impracticable as it is inappropriate.
What's more, the TCs are obliged to perform a "balancing exercise" before handing down any punishment. I can quite imagine that even if they were to take the initial steps, as soon as the operator produced communication from a manufacturer saying they weren't interested (words to that effect, naturally), the case would be dismissed pretty out of hand.

 

[markymark2000]

PSVAIR is relatively new, but I find the whole bus and coach industries approach to accessibility utterly pathetic, PSVAR has been around for 25 years now, and the coach industry in particular is still after exemptions.

I am involved with a local community group that has a few wheelchair member users, and when looking at travel to events in other parts of the UK, don't even bother contacting coach hire companies now. A few have PSVAR compliant coaches but often in the past have forgotten to remove seats, not tested the lift before sending it out or the driver doesn't know how to fit the wheelchair restraints.

PSVAR compliance is shocking. The vehicles are there, it's now a training issue (within the operators control) and infrastructure issue (granted not within the operators control). There is a lot of misinformation out there too about PSVAR (mostly drivers claiming it's not a requirement on the walkaround check, which is contrary to the DVSAs official walkaround check list) which doesn't help anything. I hope that the industry gets to grips with the training issue though quickly.

That reminds me that the NaPTAN database to which you refer, timetables and on-bus announcements don't always agree on what a stop is called.

There was work going on at the DFT to push local authorities to have everything match up but that seems to have given up now.

I know it took a friend of mine over 2 years to convince Merseytravel to update some bus stop names so the stop names were logical to the actual stop (to futureproof against such issues, but also make things logically more consistent and useful for passengers). Such as the bus stop inside Kirkby station car park was named something like 'westfield drive' but the bus stops on Westfield drive just before the station car park, were called 'Kirkby station'. How is the stop inside the station called the road name, but the stops outside on the main road were named after the station?
And something around Aintree Hospital and Merseytravel swore blind that the stops had to be named Fazakerley Broadway rather than Aintree Hospital which is a big enough landmark and arguably if it hadn't been changed, it would have been manually overridden by operators.

Of course this is also meaningless when some operators such as Stagecoach do manual overrides and for some reason their stop database doesn't update with Naptan. My local route has got a stop where it's not using the NaPTAN details (as I've checked) and it announces the stop name as a local business that hasn't existed since 2010. As per with the specific division, there is no oversight, no accountability, and no care for passengers with such things so it's just been left. But it's a great example of an issue caused by the operator due to laziness of them keeping their stops database updated. Of course this really doesn't help with the consistency between timetables, announcements and NaPTAN, as you rightly mention.

 

[Eyersey468]

The date is a bit ridiculous. I think they were trying to capture vehicles to be used on rail replacement services, but even they dont have that old buses on them

I could understand going back to.about the year 2000 as that will cover the vast majority of PSVs in use

 

[kkong]

My local route has got a stop where it's not using the NaPTAN details (as I've checked) and it announces the stop name as a local business that hasn't existed since 2010.

There is a stop on First Aberdeen's route 18 which is announced as "Shops".

The corresponding stop directly across the road for the opposite direction is announced (correctly) as "Kincorth Shops".

There is a stop on route 11A which is announced as "Church" rather than "Craigiebuckler Church".

Cities tend to have more than one group of shops and more than one church.

I expect they have removed the locality part of the location and ended up with generic locations.

I heard an announcement on route 17A the other day: "The next stop is for Windmill Brae". To my knowledge, there has never been a stop called Windmill Brae.

 

[marks87]

There’s a few anomalies in Dundee as well.

There’s a stop near Ninewells Hospital called “The Shand”, named after a pub that closed in 2011. The stop itself never changed its name, and the announcement on Stagecoach and Xplore now match. Which, in fairness, is probably correct.

“Broughty Ferry Post Office” is different, though. Said “post office” is now a pub, and has been for over 30 years! The stop itself is “Post Office Bar”, but the announcements don’t reflect that.

There’s a few more trivial ones, like “Dundee City Centre Bus Station” for services that stop at the stop across the road (called “Opp. Bus Station”) rather that the bus station itself. But that’s likely a consequence of dropping “opposite” from all stop names.

 

[kez19]

There’s a few anomalies in Dundee as well.

There’s a stop near Ninewells Hospital called “The Shand”, named after a pub that closed in 2011. The stop itself never changed its name, and the announcement on Stagecoach and Xplore now match. Which, in fairness, is probably correct.

“Broughty Ferry Post Office” is different, though. Said “post office” is now a pub, and has been for over 30 years! The stop itself is “Post Office Bar”, but the announcements don’t reflect that.

There’s a few more trivial ones, like “Dundee City Centre Bus Station” for services that stop at the stop across the road (called “Opp. Bus Station”) rather that the bus station itself. But that’s likely a consequence of dropping “opposite” from all stop names.

I’ll add a few for Xplore … stop at library in Whitfield (it’s gone ages ago, however the library is at The Crescent), the now closed Braeview Academy and updating Drumgeith Bar (could easily change this to the new school), the one final oddity if going to Asda Milton from town on display it says Longhaugh Road (towards its correct Longtown Road), it announces the stop as Asda Milton the operator does need to update the information at least.

 

[dgl]

To add to my previous post about First Wessex, I remember the Streetlites did have next stop announcements at one point, it was almost like they were testing them out as the amount of announcements changed during the time they were in use.
At one point they would announce both arriving and leaving a stop.
It was random as to whether the system was in use or not, and I don't think all drivers properly knew how to work it.
Our current Streetlites don't seem to have any of the next stop equipment fitted so I guess they have been moved around or the kit removed, there is certainly no next stop display fitted to any of them as far as I am aware.

 

[joieman]

There is a stop on First Aberdeen's route 18 which is announced as "Shops".

The corresponding stop directly across the road for the opposite direction is announced (correctly) as "Kincorth Shops".

There is a stop on route 11A which is announced as "Church" rather than "Craigiebuckler Church".

Cities tend to have more than one group of shops and more than one church.

I expect they have removed the locality part of the location and ended up with generic locations.

I heard an announcement on route 17A the other day: "The next stop is for Windmill Brae". To my knowledge, there has never been a stop called Windmill Brae.

On Kinchbus's service 5 in Loughborough, there are a whole series of bus stops with generic or straight-up incorrect names:

• "Sharpley Road". This is on a side road between Old Ashby Road and Hermitage Road, and not especially close to Sharpley Road.
• "Green". This stop on Hermitage Road is named for the semicircular patch of grass next to it. Additionally , the bus stop sign is also on the wrong side of the road: the 5 used to run in both directions along Hermitage Road, but now only runs along this street towards Loughborough town centre.
• "Hermitage Road". This stop is on Sharpley Road.
• "Jitty". A jitty is a local term for an alleyway, the jitty in question being an unnamed footpath between houses running between Sharpley Road, where the stop is situated, and New Ashby Road.
• "Shops". Near the top end of Sharpley Road is a row of shops situated on Hermitage Way, a footpath running between Old Ashby Road and New Ashby Road and bisecting Hermitage Road and Sharpley Road.

Also in Loughborough: another stop with an inaccurate name, not served by the service 5, are the stops named "Registry Office": the registry office was relocated a long time ago. Kinchbus have recently replaced the flags, despite none of their services using these stops: the new flags are labelled "Register Office".

I believe this could go on as its own thread... I haven't even mentioned the two other stops with misspelled names on flags that I spotted last year!