Pricing discrepancy

[James Smart]

Hi,

I've bought a super off peak return from Didcot to Exeter St Davids from the ticket machine at Didcot. I bought it with a network Railcard and it cost 61.40, however the app price is 92.20 i.e no network Railcard discount....have I got an invalid ticket and if I have how on earth has the machine sold me a wrong ticket ? Cheers

 

[Gaelan]

The network railcard is only valid after 10am. Were you looking at a journey before 10am in the app?

 

[BRX]

Hi,

I've bought a super off peak return from Didcot to Exeter St Davids from the ticket machine at Didcot. I bought it with a network Railcard and it cost 61.40, however the app price is 92.20 i.e no network Railcard discount....have I got an invalid ticket and if I have how on earth has the machine sold me a wrong ticket ? Cheers

Have you bought a route or operator specific ticket? That may be why.

 

[James Smart]

After 10:am

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Don't think so ...just not via London

 

[Kite159]

I guess it's a "Not Via London" ticket you purchased. I presume one route option will be Didcot Parkway - Reading - Basingstoke - Exeter hence staying within the area covered by the Network Railcard, rather than the faster route via Taunton which goes outside the Network area.

No doubt online journey planners will default to the faster route (especially with the dwell-fest timetable on SWR Exeter trains) and won't suggest the Network Railcard discount [I presume the fastest route would be Didcot - Reading - Taunton - Exeter]

 

[James Smart]

I guess it's a "Not Via London" ticket you purchased. I presume one route option will be Didcot Parkway - Reading - Basingstoke - Exeter hence staying within the area covered by the Network Railcard, rather than the faster route via Taunton

So if I went via Tau tonight it would be invalid?

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So if I went via Tau tonight it would be invalid?

Taunton

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So if I went via Tau tonight it would be invalid?
L
Taunton

Though why doesn't the GWR app show the right price?

 

[Watershed]

Yes, it's not valid via Taunton because a Network Railcard is geographically restricted. It's not valid on the GWML west of Didcot - it's only valid to Exeter if you take the SWR route via Honiton.

You can still get the discount on a "not via London" ticket but the fact you're using a Network Railcard adds additional route restrictions in practice.

The reason a journey planner won't offer it is that the Network Railcard discounted fare isn't valid on GWR trains via Taunton. And the alternative of going via Reading, Basingstoke and Salisbury is so much slower it won't come up automatically.

 

[James Smart]

I guess it's a "Not Via London" ticket you purchased. I presume one route option will be Didcot Parkway - Reading - Basingstoke - Exeter hence staying within the area covered by the Network Railcard, rather than the faster route via Taunton which goes outside the Network area.

No doubt online journey planners will default to the faster route (especially with the dwell-fest timetable on SWR Exeter trains) and won't suggest the Network Railcard discount [I presume the fastest route would be Didcot - Reading - Taunton - Exeter]

Yes I went Reading Taunton Exeter

 

[Kite159]

So if I went via Tau tonight it would be invalid?

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Taunton

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Though why doesn't the GWR app show the right price?

Tonight (as in the 4th) it would be valid due to ticket acceptance being in place due to various tree related issues (from the SWR Journey Check page)

Your ticket can be used, at no extra cost, on the following services:

Rail Services:
Great Western Railway services between London Paddington and Exeter St Davids, Reading and Basingstoke in both directions.

 

[James Smart]

Yes, it's not valid via Taunton because a Network Railcard is geographically restricted. It's not valid west of Didcot - it's only valid to Exeter via Honiton.

You can still get the discount on a "not via London" ticket but the fact you're using a Network Railcard adds additional route restrictions in practice.

The reason a journey planner won't offer it is that the Network Railcard discounted fare isn't valid on GWR trains via Taunton. And the alternative of going via Reading, Basingstoke and Salisbury is so much slower it won't come up automatically.

OK thanks ...but how am I supposed to know that?

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Tonight (as in the 4th) it would be valid due to ticket acceptance being in place due to various tree related issues (from the SWR Journey Check page)

I see that explains it

 

[Kite159]

OK thanks ...but how am I supposed to know that?

By reading the T&Cs of the Network Railcard?

 

[Watershed]

OK thanks ...but how am I supposed to know that?

You agreed to the Network Railcard terms and conditions when you bought your Railcard. Part of that includes the fact that Network Railcard discounts are only available for travel on routes within the Network Area - see this map.

4.2. Network Railcard discounts apply for travel at or after 10.00 Monday to Friday (excluding Public Holidays) and any time on weekends.  Discounts apply to services in the Network Railcard area only (see network-railcard.co.uk/map).

The ticket you've bought is usable, however the routes it's valid on are a very slow way of getting to Exeter - probably not worth the discount.

 

[James Smart]

By reading the T&Cs of the Network Railcard?

Right but why would I be sold a ticket and it not show the restrictions? Not trying to be an arse but I found it incredibly confusing

 

[Watershed]

Right but why would I be sold a ticket and it not show the restrictions? Not trying to be an arse but I found it incredibly confusing

I agree it would be helpful if the ticket reminded you that it was only valid via Honiton. But at the end of the day, it's your responsibility to be familiar with the restrictions associated with your Railcard.

 

[James Smart]

Thanks...I'll stick to the apps then...as a former software engineer I found it amazing that they can't design the ticketing restrictions be more obvious.

 

[Watershed]

Thanks...I'll stick to the apps then...as a former software engineer I found it amazing that they can't design the ticketing restrictions be more obvious.

In fairness it is becoming increasingly rare to find a "dumb" ticket machine that will sell you a ticket without searching for valid journeys first. Most would therefore not have sold you the ticket in the first place (without you selecting an itinerary via Honiton).

 

[redreni]

I guess this shows why the industry is moving away from dumb TVMs.

Journey planner-based TVMs should in theory prevent people buying tickets that can only be used by a ridiculous route that they don't want to take.

It's just unfortunate that we keep getting reports on here of people being unable to buy the ticket they require from a journey planner based TVM, because it wrongly thinks they won't be able to use it, doesn't know that a train is delayed, thinks they don't have enough time to catch the train when they do, etc.

It would be really nice if journey planner TVMs had an 'expert mode' where you can just buy whatever ticket you want, but you have to click through a message where you accept that if you buy the wrong ticket and things go south from there, you are responsible for that.

 

[Wallsendmag]

I guess this shows why the industry is moving away from dumb TVMs.

Journey planner-based TVMs should in theory prevent people buying tickets that can only be used by a ridiculous route that they don't want to take.

It's just unfortunate that we keep getting reports on here of people being unable to buy the ticket they require from a journey planner based TVM, because it wrongly thinks they won't be able to use it, doesn't know that a train is delayed, thinks they don't have enough time to catch the train when they do, etc.

It would be really nice if journey planner TVMs had an 'expert mode' where you can just buy whatever ticket you want, but you have to click through a message where you accept that if you buy the wrong ticket and things go south from there, you are responsible for that.

TVMs just can't cope with the current pricing offering, it just makes them too slow and awkward to use. Reform needs to start with pricing and spread out from there.

 

[sheff1]

TVMs just can't cope with the current pricing offering, it just makes them too slow and awkward to use. Reform needs to start with pricing and spread out from there.

I assume you are talking about journey planner TVMs. If so, another case of 'improvements' actually making things worse. At the Sheffield EMR TVMs I can buy pretty much any* walk up ticket I want, including from stations other than Sheffield, in seconds. Trying to buy the same tickets from the TVMs (LNER or Northern) at Doncaster takes much longer and sometimes requires me to select trains I wiil not be catching.

* Only issue which affects me is the inability to select a SY Concession ticket.

 

[Wallsendmag]

I assume you are talking about journey planner TVMs. If so, another case of 'improvements' actually making things worse. At the Sheffield EMR TVMs I can buy pretty much any* walk up ticket I want, including from stations other than Sheffield, in seconds. Trying to buy the same tickets from the TVMs (LNER or Northern) at Doncaster takes much longer and sometimes requires me to select trains I wiil not be catching.

* Only issue which affects me is the inability to select a SY Concession ticket.

Well no , you can select a fare without selecting a service , try it next time. Also The EMR TVMs quite often won’t sell the cheapest ticket, explain to me how that’s better ?

 

[sheff1]

Well no , you can select a fare without selecting a service , try it next time.

I didn’t see that option. Will take another look.

Also The EMR TVMs quite often won’t sell the cheapest ticket, explain to me how that’s better ?

Apart from the lack of SY Concession mentioned, I have had no problem buying the tickets I want from these TVMs.

The ‘cheapest’ ticket for any particular journey may well actually be a combination of two or more tickets which again I can easily buy from the EMR TVMs.

A favourite journey involves a ticket to be used on a traiin which passes through but doesn’t stop at the destination on the ticket - no way a journey planner interface would sell me that, unless I selected a train I had no intention of catching

 

[Haywain]

Apart from the lack of SY Concession mentioned, I have had no problem buying the tickets I want.

Well, that's OK then.

The ‘cheapest’ ticket for any particular journey may well actually be a combination of two or more tickets which again I can easily buy from the EMR TVMs. A favourite journey involves a ticket to be used on a traiin which doesn’t stop at the origin on the ticket - no way would a journey planner interface would sell me that.

Try EMR's Groupsave offering.

 

[sheff1]

Try EMR's Groupsave offering.

Why would I try something I have no desire to ever buy?

 

[Starmill]

Well no , you can select a fare without selecting a service , try it next time. Also The EMR TVMs quite often won’t sell the cheapest ticket, explain to me how that’s better ?

The last time I used an LNER TVM it didn't have the Lumo only single from Newcastle to Morpeth. The ticket office of course provided me with it. I haven't gone back to one, after that rather negative experience, but I have heard many other people who have the same problems. For example:

LNER have sited a large number of ticket machines in the entrance of Newcastle’s station so I interrogated one to see what ticket I could buy with a Senior Railcard for a single journey. And much to my delight it came up with a £1.95 “Advanced Single” ticket for not only my planned departure at 12:55 but later departures too.

This represented a £9.90 saving on the standard Anytime Day Single (there’s no Off Peak) of £11.95 which was also offered.

Except when I pressed the £1.95 icon it came back with the message “Reservation for outbound not available. Mandatory reservation required, Please select another service”.

What a disappointment. I tried all the other departures but they all came up with the same message.

I decided to head over to the Ticket Office to see what they would offer me.

I made it to the ticket office and the helpful woman behind the glass sold me a ticket, an “Advance Single” for £7.25 – something that wasn’t offered at the ticket machine, confirming my view, and the moral of this story, that if you want to be confident of getting the best ticket deal on Britain’s railway you need to interrogate both the ticket machine and the ticket office to be sure you are getting the cheapest fare, as both offer different ticket prices. And that’s before looking online and maybe being offered more options, including ones where you pay an additional commission to the likes of Trainline.

The crazy world of rail ticketing

Tuesday 15th February 2022 As a Brighton Main Line regular I’ve long been used to playing the ‘Thameslink only’ ticket game to save myself money on travels to and from London, not least during the …

busandtrainuser.com

 

[Wallsendmag]

That was a TVM with expired RARs credentials that for some reason offered all advances but was unable to book anythig requiring a reservation

 

[Watershed]

That was a TVM with expired RARs credentials that for some reason offered all advances but was unable to book anythig requiring a reservation

How hadn't that been picked up through routine audits? You would expect the lack of Advance sales on that TVM to stick out, let alone the fact that there should be processes to renew credentials before they expire.

 

[Starmill]

How hadn't that been picked up through routine audits? You would expect the lack of Advance sales on that TVM to stick out, let alone the fact that there should be processes to renew credentials before they expire.

Indeed. How long were these two errors above live for? How many customers bought more expensive tickets than required during that time? How many people did LNER offer a refund of the difference in price to once these issues were rectified? What about a charity donation of a nominal sum in respect of the additional fares charged to customers who couldn't then be contacted, and didn't get in touch to ask for a refund? Surely this is the absolute minimum if you overcharged consumers because of a technical error with software on machines?

That's just two cases. How many others are there that we don't know about? I wasn't overcharged, nor was Mr French, so we'd have no claim. But only because we're clued in. The vast, vast majority of consumers would not be.

 

[Adam Williams]

If you can't reach RARS, why on earth would you assume availability for a mandatory-reservations ticket type?!

Surely you fall-back to retailing all the walk-ups with a really prominent message that you cannot reach the reservations system?

 

[OscarH]

How hadn't that been picked up through routine audits? You would expect the lack of Advance sales on that TVM to stick out, let alone the fact that there should be processes to renew credentials before they expire.

As if there's any monitoring of TVMs. They've been routinely found to be using long expired fares data when that should be updated daily, and if it hadn't been noticed by someone in the know it would have continued far longer.

Unfortunately enforcement against these faulty machines when RDG become aware is also very poor, and known faults are left in place for very long periods of time

 

[Watershed]

As if there's any monitoring of TVMs. They've been routinely found to be using long expired fares data when that should be updated daily, and if it hadn't been noticed by someone in the know it would have continued far longer.

Unfortunately enforcement against these faulty machines when RDG become aware is also very poor, and known faults are left in place for very long periods of time

It was a rhetorical question but yes, the double standards in the industry are unbelievable.