Expansion of LNER 70-min flex trial area ("Simpler Fares")

[Deepgreen]

Why?

Like so many things discussed on this forum, nobody really cares and people on this forum need to understand how the wider public really couldn't care less about this, or about many other things.

What the general public DO care about though, is simplicity of fares, value for money and the existence of walk-up rail services, which are steadily being eroded by stuff like this. 'Re-nationalisation' should bring a simpler, more integrated railway, but that doesn't seem to be emerging. I despair.

 

[yorksrob]

If you're asking people who travel by train, then it seems plausible.

The ones who are priced off the railway aren't on trains, but the ones affected by overcrowding are.

Though from what I've read here, overcrowding isn't a significant issue on this route perhaps thanks to the fake compulsory reservation policy.

You raise a good point - LNER have other levers to pull to alleviate crowding. The supply of AP tickets mainly (but I guess you could include the fake reservations only policy !)

 

[Krokodil]

They seemed to get quite fired up about ticket offices. I imagine some publicity of a blatant campaign to hike prices (which is what this is) could build up some steam.

You'd have to explain it to them in terms that they can understand. Good luck with that.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Crowding is annoying, but more so than extortionate fares ? I'm not convinced.

I think we probably need to bear in mind there that a lot of IC passengers aren't paying their own fare thus don't care what it costs but do care if they have to stand or turf someone out of their booked seat.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 1 Oct 2025 ==

What the general public DO care about though, is simplicity of fares, value for money and the existence of walk-up rail services, which are steadily being eroded by stuff like this. 'Re-nationalisation' should bring a simpler, more integrated railway, but that doesn't seem to be emerging. I despair.

I don't think most of the public give a monkey's about walk up intercity fares.

 

[redreni]

I can answer that now - no, it is not. That is a lost cause. Public transport is for most people an adjunct to the car, and the thing you're trying to get them to do is use it when it makes sense.

Only those in large cities living near the centre might viably choose to give up their car.

But once people have the sunk cost of car ownership, why would they not use it all the time unless they're a rail enthusiast?

If, on the other hand, you have a driving licence but no car, so you need to rent one if you want to drive somewhere, you will take public transport unless it's hopelessly impractical or absurdly expensive. That is how you drive modal shift. The climate targets can only be met that way. It can't be done with EVs.

I accept it depends what you're trying to achieve and how hard you're willing to try. I'm suggesting a reasonable and realistic effort to meet the targets Parliament has legislated for. Rather than aiming to miss them, which is unlawful. Even if you think they're unrealistic.

 

[Bletchleyite]

But once people have the sunk cost of car ownership, why would they not use it all the time unless they're a rail enthusiast?

That's why the railway has to price taking that into account.

If, on the other hand, you have a driving licence but no car, so you need to rent one if you want to drive somewhere, you will take public transport unless it's hopelessly impractical or absurdly expensive. That is how you drive modal shift. The climate targets can only be met that way. It can't be done with EVs.

It can to a fairly large extent.

I accept it depends what you're trying to achieve and how hard you're willing to try. I'm suggesting a reasonable and realistic effort to meet the targets Parliament has legislated for. Rather than aiming to miss them, which is unlawful. Even if you think they're unrealistic.

The suggestion that people will stop driving en masse is neither "realistic" nor "reasonable". Policy must be set taking that into account. The best you're going to achieve is getting two car households down to one and making it an EV, and reducing urban car use through cycle provision and public transport.

 

[yorksrob]

I think we probably need to bear in mind there that a lot of IC passengers aren't paying their own fare thus don't care what it costs but do care if they have to stand or turf someone out of their booked seat.

Well, there always used to be. Isn't the problem today that these are few and far between now.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Well, there always used to be. Isn't the problem today that these are few and far between now.

Business travel is recovering, and there is new business travel from people who mostly work from home and go in once a week.

 

[yorksrob]

Business travel is recovering, and there is new business travel from people who mostly work from home and go in once a week.

They're more savvy these days though. And a good thing too. The sooner the railway learns that the limitless expense account is dead, the sooner it can move on.

 

[Bletchleyite]

They're more savvy these days though. And a good thing too. The sooner the railway learns that the limitless expense account is dead, the sooner it can move on.

The unlimited expense account and first class is largely out. But businesses aren't going to baulk too much at London-Edinburgh being £120 instead of £100, whereas individuals might.

 

[Trainbike46]

I can answer that now - no, it is not. That is a lost cause. Public transport is for most people an adjunct to the car, and the thing you're trying to get them to do is use it when it makes sense.

Only those in large cities living near the centre might viably choose to give up their car.

Many people in the UK do not have access to a car though.
22% of households do not have any cars. In the 45% of household that do have one car, there will be people who cannot use the car they do have.

Some of those who do have a car could undoubtedly do without one but choose not to whatever reason.

Therefore, it clearly is viable to do without a car for a large fraction of the UK population, evidenced by the fact they do that today. Rail should cater for these people.

 

[Wallsendmag]

I would at least expect people on this forum to stop using LNER.

That would make my life quite difficult.

 

[yorksrob]

You'd have to explain it to them in terms that they can understand. Good luck with that.

True, it's not an easy concept. I think the argument along the lines that the off-peak fare is an upper limit for all fares at that time, is probably the most easy to convey.

 

[Bletchleyite]

True, it's not an easy concept. I think the argument along the lines that the off-peak fare is an upper limit for all fares at that time, is probably the most easy to convey.

And it's still the case that most fares booked more than a few days in advance at former off peak times are below £100ish. So they will still struggle to get it...

 

[Kite159]

And it's still the case that most fares booked more than a few days in advance at former off peak times are below £100ish. So they will still struggle to get it...

Until you get to that weekend when the WCML is closed or the ECML is having one of their usual weekends of engineering works with Newcastle - London reduced to hourly, then the price shoots up fast, since the fare cap of the super off-peak ticket no longer exists.

If you think the fare pilot is so great, should it be extended to Bletchley or Aylesbury Vale Parkway where the only flexible tickets are anytime with some random advance tickets thrown in (which for Bletchley will only be on the stopping services)

 

[sheff1]

LNER are right that Off Peak fares are complex.

No they aren't.

Though from what I've read here, overcrowding isn't a significant issue on this route perhaps thanks to the fake compulsory reservation policy.

I have made a number of journeys using walk up tickets on LNER recently and, in the main, the trains have been noticeably quieter than last year, even during the Edinburgh Festival. One reason seemed to be that on every train there have been seats which were reserved but nobody using those reservations. On my last journey I travelled all the way from Aberdeen to York without having to move from a seat which was 'reserved' for 3 or 4 different intermediate journeys.

Perhaps my journey experiences are atypical ?

 

[Krokodil]

On the contrary, it seems to match the experience of other posters

 

[aron2smith]

What the general public DO care about though, is simplicity of fares, value for money and the existence of walk-up rail services, which are steadily being eroded by stuff like this. 'Re-nationalisation' should bring a simpler, more integrated railway, but that doesn't seem to be emerging. I despair.

Yes exactly, it's like the government is trying to punishing us, the public, for their failure to invest in improving the infrastructure, capacity and services in recent decades. What gets me on the trains are the travelcards and regional rover tickets, can go wherever and whenever you like, nothing simpler than that! Anything that restricts that freedom is by default, complicated.

 

[yorksrob]

How? LNER are right that Off Peak fares are complex. That complexity isn't that important now most fares are bought via planners, though.

This is poppycock, and you know it.

 

[norbitonflyer]

You'd have to explain it to them in terms that they can understand. Good luck with that.

Very simple - they have abolished regulated fares on LNER.

The claim that the so-called "flexible" fares (an abuse of language for what is merely a slightly looser strightjacket than the Advance fare) are effectively capped by the Anytime fare is disingenuous - the Anytime fare is itself not regulated.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 9 Oct 2025 ==

Yet are being paid. And there's the rub - LNER are charging these fares, and people are buying them.

Hobson's Choice. If Off Peak fares were still available, we would see how popular the alternatives really were.

Soemone mentioned the deathbed situation, where you have to travel right now. But that is not the only situation where you don't know until the time comes when you'll be travelling. More imnportantly, you don't know when you're coming back.

What if the weather improves, or deteriorates, while you're on holiday?
What if the match goes into extra time?
What if granny takes longer to leave this world (or grandchild to enter it) than expected?

In all these cases the return journey is necessary, but its timing isn't. And if you don't know when it's going to be, if you are usibng LNER you don't know whether you'll be able to afford it.

 

[AdamWW]

Soemone mentioned the deathbed situation, where you have to travel right now. But that is not the only situation where you don't know until the time comes when you'll be travelling. More imnportantly, you don't know when you're coming back.

What if the weather improves, or deteriorates, while you're on holiday?
What if the match goes into extra time?
What if granny takes longer to leave this world (or grandchild to enter it) than expected?

In all these cases the return journey is necessary, but its timing isn't. And if you don't know when it's going to be, if you are usibng LNER you don't know whether you'll be able to afford it.

I think you're onto a loser here.

You know, and I know, and plenty of people here also know that there are many reasons people need flexibility. I could give many more examples but I won't bother.

I suspect those who insist it's only ever required when a close relative dies will carry on doing so no matter what is pointed out.

I imagine they are people with cars and that they wouldn't be overly keen on a road pricing scheme that required travel to be booked an indefinite period of time in advance to the nearest hour or so in order to avoid extortionate prices.

 

[Haywain]

What if the match goes into extra time?

You can very easily plan for this eventuality, and should do if it is a possibility.

 

[Krokodil]

You can very easily plan for this eventuality, and should do if it is a possibility.

Didn't need to when you could just board any train.

 

[Bletchleyite]

You can very easily plan for this eventuality, and should do if it is a possibility.

The 70 Minute Flex is ideal for this possibility. You book the cheaper of the two trains you might take, and actually take the one that ends up being relevant using the flexibility. Yes, it's easier with an Off Peak Single, but it's still possible in the "trial".

The one about coming back from holiday on a different day is more relevant to the single fare pricing discussion - if you want to come back a different day you just change your tickets for £10 plus the fare difference which may cost more but you would probably be paying less overall for the total of both directions than if you just bought two Super Off Peak Singles, one each way. (Though I don't think an admin fee should be charged as nobody is doing any admin, it's all done online).

 

[aron2smith]

The 70 Minute Flex is ideal for this possibility. You book the cheaper of the two trains you might take, and actually take the one that ends up being relevant using the flexibility. Yes, it's easier with an Off Peak Single, but it's still possible in the "trial".

The one about coming back from holiday on a different day is more relevant to the single fare pricing discussion - if you want to come back a different day you just change your tickets for £10 plus the fare difference which may cost more but you would probably be paying less overall for the total of both directions than if you just bought two Super Off Peak Singles, one each way. (Though I don't think an admin fee should be charged as nobody is doing any admin, it's all done online).

Yeah do all that or we could just keep the Period Return instead. Everything you just said either requires extra steps or cost people even more money when the fare is already a rip off. Like LNER's policy was designed to put people off using the train. It certainly makes things far more confusing for everyone, especially those who use trains only once in a blue moon.

See this thread I saw on Bluesky for a very real world example of why LNER's trial is bull nonsense. All she wanted was a flexible super off peak return from King's Cross to Leeds! https://bsky.app/profile/carlafrancome.bsky.social/post/3m2he4xqjlc2o

By comparison, I go from London to Plymouth a couple times a year to see family, I know exactly what it will cost before I buy and can just buy it at that price, knowing I can turn up at the station and board the next train at MY convenience, what a concept!

 

[Bletchleyite]

See this thread I saw on Bluesky for a very real world example of why LNER's trial is bull nonsense. All she wanted was a flexible super off peak return from King's Cross to Leeds! https://bsky.app/profile/carlafrancome.bsky.social/post/3m2he4xqjlc2o

I saw that article and it was interesting as Leeds is *not* part of the trial that this thread discusses. Single fare pricing was an earlier trial, and I wholeheartedly support it. In all likelihood a Super Off Peak Return would, if it still existed, cost around what those two singles did.

It did highlight another problem - that LNER is too expensive generally - but that's nothing to do with the trial (aside from that that makes it a bit more expensive) - the ECML has been expensive compared with other UK rail services for a long time, particularly the WCML which has quite low off peak walk up fares for historical reasons (those being that Virgin abolished the SuperSaver and reduced the Saver to compensate, which then became the regulated fare).

 

[aron2smith]

Hobson's Choice. If Off Peak fares were still available, we would see how popular the alternatives really were.

Soemone mentioned the deathbed situation, where you have to travel right now. But that is not the only situation where you don't know until the time comes when you'll be travelling. More imnportantly, you don't know when you're coming back.

What if the weather improves, or deteriorates, while you're on holiday?
What if the match goes into extra time?
What if granny takes longer to leave this world (or grandchild to enter it) than expected?

In all these cases the return journey is necessary, but its timing isn't. And if you don't know when it's going to be, if you are usibng LNER you don't know whether you'll be able to afford it.

In all these cases and others, our trains are far too unreliable for me to even consider restricting myself to specific trains. Knowing I can board any train after 10am with an off-peak, and with a few more restrictions, pay less and get a Super Off Peak puts my mind at ease. Where I live, trains are fine but buses are regularly late and not frequent enough to make it easy to get to the local station and a council that seems to think its fine to throw up random roadworks at the last minute for extra chaos! No way am I restricting myself when it causes so much extra anxiety for no reason. One of the last times I bought an advance, I bought a month before I was travelling, then a strike was called, only to be cancelled the day before, that caused so much intense stress, I didn't have to pay an admin fee for changing the ticket but I was like never again! A Period Return would've alleviated all that stress and uncertainty, so that is what I do now.

To me, ticket simplification is what Scotrail and TFL is doing, not what LNER is doing. It must keep flexibility at its core, remove all the unnecessary duplicate tickets (in most cases these are TOC specific), whilst standardising how fares are calculated (ideally by distance). I'm also of the opinion, all day returns where a one way journey is an hour or longer, should just be period returns instead.

No one would mind the 70 minute fare if it replaced the advance, but it replacing standard off peak is incredibly problematic.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I'm also of the opinion, all day returns where a one way journey is an hour or longer, should just be period returns instead.

The problem with this is that people buy one as a paper ticket and use the return half as a pseudo-season ticket until it gets marked.

On the south WCML (and most of Oval generally) we have single fare pricing but no period returns, you just buy two singles if you want that. It works fine. Singles are half the price of the relevant return which means a period return journey costs the same as a day return.

 

[aron2smith]

I saw that article and it was interesting as Leeds is *not* part of the trial that this thread discusses. Single fare pricing was an earlier trial, and I wholeheartedly support it. In all likelihood a Super Off Peak Return would, if it still existed, cost around what those two singles did.

It did highlight another problem - that LNER is too expensive generally - but that's nothing to do with the trial (aside from that that makes it a bit more expensive) - the ECML has been expensive compared with other UK rail services for a long time, particularly the WCML which has quite low off peak walk up fares for historical reasons (those being that Virgin abolished the SuperSaver and reduced the Saver to compensate, which then became the regulated fare).

See that is another way this trial confuses people, I thought it was on all their routes as far north as Edinburgh now.

I want all single tickets to cost exactly half of a return, if that is what you mean. However I think removing the Period Return is a mistake.

Also this seems to expose why 1 TOC doing this sort of reform doesn't work. Really this work needs to be DFT working with the rail regions that will presumably exist once all TOCs are nationalised with a lot of input from passengers into creating an actually simple and standardised fares system.

 

[Bletchleyite]

No one would mind the 70 minute fare if it replaced the advance, but it replacing standard off peak is incredibly problematic.

I wouldn't see a huge problem with just adding it, marketed as a £20 supplement for the flexibility as a buy up when choosing an Advance. It would be very interesting to see what people chose if it was available alongside the Super Off Peak Single.