Merseyrail 777 introduction

[Bletchleyite]

Almost certainly an instruction from managers not to release the doors too quickly as this can lead to wrong side release. It is certainly a big deal on GWR where we are expected to wait a few seconds on coming to a stand before releasing the doors to prevent accidentally opening the doors on the wrong side. I guess on Merseyrail, places like Sandhills are a particular risk.

GWR are nowhere near as slow in my experience. It's as slow as guard release on a 350, which is about the slowest door release on the network.

I wonder if some sort of balise system could be looked at to resolve this?

 

[FrontSideBus]

Sorting out the door pre select would be a big gain tbh, it was very good before it was disabled.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Sorting out the door pre select would be a big gain tbh!

That was turned off because of the number of wrong-side releases, I believe.

 

[Phillipimo]

That was turned off because of the number of wrong-side releases, I believe.

As far as I know the procedure for drivers is:

Stop train.
Operate switch, left or right, to activate cameras on appropriate side.
Check screens to ensure correct side selected and train fully in platform.
Open doors.

This will take a few seconds.

 

[Bletchleyite]

As far as I know the procedure for drivers is:

Stop train.
Operate switch, left or right, to activate cameras on appropriate side.
Check screens to ensure correct side selected and train fully in platform.
Open doors.

This will take a few seconds.

That's rather belt and braces and is not replicated on driver release guard close TOCs because they don't have the option to look in cameras. Interesting that despite this there are still wrong side releases.

If I were them I'd be looking what balise based systems might exist so the train itself could detect if it is stopped correctly and which side the platform is. This would eliminate wrong side and short releases, and eliminate this delay which is probably long enough to cost a few minutes on a Southport-Hunts X run (remember two minutes were added to Ormskirk timings in the late 90s simply because of the addition of hustle alarms slowing door closing by a few seconds!)

 

[FrontSideBus]

Even something like photocells on the body sides which detects the platform edge and triggers a "Are you sure?" alert when a wrong side release is attempted?

 

[Skie]

Sorting out the door pre select would be a big gain tbh, it was very good before it was disabled.

You can however just hold the button now, doors will start opening as soon as the release is given then.

Even something like photocells on the body sides which detects the platform edge and triggers a "Are you sure?" alert when a wrong side release is attempted?

The steps already have the ability to detect a platform to enable the gap filling, but I suspect it’s a self contained system so can’t be used to pre-clear a side as safe.

Though you’d think if the steps don’t detect a platform the doors wouldn’t open, making wrong side release less unsafe. But apparently not!

 

[RichardAsh1981]

You can however just hold the button now, doors will start opening as soon as the release is given then.

On an everyday basis, that is really useful to know!

The steps already have the ability to detect a platform to enable the gap filling, but I suspect it’s a self contained system so can’t be used to pre-clear a side as safe.

Though you’d think if the steps don’t detect a platform the doors wouldn’t open, making wrong side release less unsafe. But apparently not!

The logic makes perfect sense, but there is a big difference in consequence between a failure in detection for the step system and for passenger doors. Arguably these trains already have far to many Safety Critical systems interconnected without trying to retrospectively uprate the step sensors!

For example, if the step sensors fails to detect the platform and overshoots, it is probably backed up by a mechanical clutch, the worst case is a bent step and a stuck train, not a wrong side door release.

I'm also not sure what the sensor range is - to stop the step it only needs to see the platform from about 6mm away!

But overall I agree, it seems a strange situation that the railway is introducing new areas where humans have to undertake a mundane, repetitive but highly critical task, rather than automate it. To be clear, I am talking about which side doors to release here. The decision to release the doors needs to be made by a human, but for them to have to first decide which side of the train to do it on, when there is an unambiguous right answer, seems very odd.

 

[baldyman26]

Almost like railways are trying to be too clever. If only there was a guard controlling the doors.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Almost like railways are trying to be too clever. If only there was a guard controlling the doors.

I do think it was odd that they came up with their special way of working rather than just fitting guard panels like everybody else did.

 

[baldyman26]

Suppose when it's the local authorities specifying a train it shows they have little clue in how to do it.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Suppose when it's the local authorities specifying a train it shows they have little clue in how to do it.

It was largely specified by one individual who posted here and on X for a bit until we realised how bad the things were and started turning on him (politely but with strong criticism). To me it's a good example of why one person shouldn't have had so much control over the spec.

 

[FrontSideBus]

You'd think in the interests of covering all bases and eventualities in a new custom built rolling stock order you would go with provisions for both DOO and Guard operation.
And surely systems allowing for the correct side door releases have existed for a long time as the DLR has proved?

 

[Bletchleyite]

You'd think in the interests of covering all bases and eventualities in a new custom built rolling stock order you would go with provisions for both DOO and Guard operation.

This is what has been done for most redeployable rolling stock, stuff like the 730s which have cameras but are not presently in use as well as guard panels.

However, the 777s won't ever be used anywhere other than Merseyrail. It is strange that they bodged something into the PIS (I believe it works that way) rather than just fitting guard panels, though, they must have saved about 75p per unit.

 

[WirralLine]

This is what has been done for most redeployable rolling stock, stuff like the 730s which have cameras but are not presently in use as well as guard panels.

However, the 777s won't ever be used anywhere other than Merseyrail. It is strange that they bodged something into the PIS (I believe it works that way) rather than just fitting guard panels, though, they must have saved about 75p per unit.

The PIS system itself not being related to Stadler, but rather a cheaper bolt-on system made by somebody else (Teleste I believe?) to save costs. To put it in the words of a mate who is a technician at Kirkdale depot - they wanted a state of the art fleet for the price of a basic fleet and cut costs wherever possible.

If the PIS systems etc were developed by Stadler in house theres half your problems gone already. The actual stadler part of the unit (whilst with its own faults), dont tend to cause most of the issues. Ive been on a lot of 777s this week and have ran out of hands to count how many of them had faulty PIS systems!

 

[Prime586]

This is what has been done for most redeployable rolling stock, stuff like the 730s which have cameras but are not presently in use as well as guard panels.

However, the 777s won't ever be used anywhere other than Merseyrail. It is strange that they bodged something into the PIS (I believe it works that way) rather than just fitting guard panels, though, they must have saved about 75p per unit.

The guard release RFID system is integrated into the door control network (which I think runs over CANbus) . Algra, the Swiss supplier of the door control panels was tasked with redesigning them to integrate an RFID reader module to minimise the amount of mechanical and electrical rework (instead pushing the additional complexity into the software, which seems to be Stadler's achilles heel).

Algra did used to have a page on their websiteabout the redesigned panel, but it seems ot have disappeared...

 

[Skie]

Algra did used to have a page on their websiteabout the redesigned panel, but it seems ot have disappeared...

Still there, just moved https://algragroup.ch/en/references/stadler

 

[507 001]

I suspect that traditional GOPs will be fitted at some point. The current system makes 10 bells look sensible.

 

[WirralLine]

I suspect that traditional GOPs will be fitted at some point. The current system makes 10 bells look sensible.

Or theyll just get rid of the guards completely. I am all for guards on trains, I am one (elsewhere), but 90% of ME trains ive been on lately you wouldnt know there is even a guard onboard unless you sit near the rear. They either tend to stay at the rearmost door or hide in the cab coming out just to tap the fob at each stop. Its usually the same few faces you see actually throughout the train frequently, using different doors, checking tickets etc.

Speaking to a few of them - and my good mate who is a guard there - the role has been so watered down now there is no morale or motivation, most do the bare minimum, which is ultimately digging their own grave unfortunately.

 

[Djgr]

Or theyll just get rid of the guards completely. I am all for guards on trains, I am one (elsewhere), but 90% of ME trains ive been on lately you wouldnt know there is even a guard onboard unless you sit near the rear. They either tend to stay at the rearmost door or hide in the cab coming out just to tap the fob at each stop. Its usually the same few faces you see actually throughout the train frequently, using different doors, checking tickets etc.

Speaking to a few of them - and my good mate who is a guard there - the role has been so watered down now there is no morale or motivation, most do the bare minimum, which is ultimately digging their own grave unfortunately.

Agreed. It would be better if their role focused on ticket checking, which by default would provide customer service.

The Ceremony of the Doors should be left to the driver.

 

[FrontSideBus]

At least when the guard hides in the rear cab you couldn't see them... when they are just standing in the vestibule playing with their phones is not a good look!

 

[Bletchleyite]

At least when the guard hides in the rear cab you couldn't see them... when they are just standing in the vestibule playing with their phones is not a good look!

As they are safety critical staff, they should presumably not be using personal mobile phones while on duty working a train. If they are, I'd consider reporting the matter. I haven't myself seen it yet.

I've seen the same from Southern OBSs, though, and I'd agree it's bad optics even though they are I think not considered safety critical. No customer facing member of staff in any industry should be using their personal mobile phone in a place where it's visible to customers that they are doing so, the optics are terrible.

 

[Kite159]

As they are safety critical staff, they should presumably not be using personal mobile phones while on duty working a train. If they are, I'd consider reporting the matter. I haven't myself seen it yet.

I've seen the same from Southern OBSs, though, and I'd agree it's bad optics even though they are I think not considered safety critical. No customer facing member of staff in any industry should be using their personal mobile phone in a place where it's visible to customers that they are doing so, the optics are terrible.

If you see a member of staff using a phone in between station calls, how do you know it's their personal phone and not a work phone?

 

[Bletchleyite]

If you see a member of staff using a phone in between station calls, how do you know it's their personal phone and not a work phone?

If you walk past someone it is very easy to quickly see whether someone is using a work related app or is scrolling inane videos and other social media garbage. And if they're making a telephone call you can hear its content, or at least half of it unless they're bringing a Byelaw 17 offence into the mix too.

As an aside for this I got a couple of brief rides on a 555 on the T&W Metro this weekend. My first impressions were that they are far better designed than the Merseyrail units, with comfortable seating, a PIS that actually works etc, even if the basic train is the same and suffers some of the same faults (e.g. the door step sliders failing when people stand on them). Plus the door release is much quicker, presumably their drivers are trusted to see that the platform they just drove along is still there and to simply check the "car stop" marker before releasing rather than using the DOO cameras to replicate a guard check.

 

[RichardAsh1981]

Talking of the PIS, this was the internal lower-level screen over the wheelchair space on my trip to work this morning.

Not only do we know the video screens run Linux, they also run systemd and have a locking bug ...

 

[Bletchleyite]

Linux is pretty normal for embedded stuff these days. Micro-PC boards like Raspberry Pi are dirt cheap for this sort of purpose, and Linux is free unlike Windows.

That these are generic PCs does of course mean it would be possible to replace the absolutely awful software presently running on them. That's an upside at least.

 

[WirralLine]

As they are safety critical staff, they should presumably not be using personal mobile phones while on duty working a train. If they are, I'd consider reporting the matter. I haven't myself seen it yet.

At my TOC im allowed to do whatever I please (obviously within reason) when not doing safety critical duties or checking tickets etc.

If ive got a little while between stations, safety duties are done, tickets have been checked and customer service stuff sorted, nothing to report/email etc, so Im allowed to chill out in the cab for a bit and scroll, make a call, play a game, read a book, watch some videos or whatever. Obviously as soon as its station time again the phone goes away and safety crit mode starts again.

Of course - i wouldnt be scrolling through my personal phone in front of the customers as I agree it does look unprofessional!

 

[BenW390Fan]

Worth noting - when I was shadowing a Train Manager (which is now their official name on the network), I got to use the unit dedicated phone. Basically, it's an Android phone that has the unit number on the back that stays with the unit and it contains an app that the TM can speak into and record announcements which plays on the speakers on the train. You can select to play the announcement on the interior or exterior, or both. I can't remember much else about the phone as it was a while ago since I last shadowed but it is a phone dedicated to the unit, which could be what the TM was using - so I can't say it's right to go and report them for using a phone alone

EDIT: Also worth noting that the exterior speakers are incredibly loud, I remember working at LVC once and the guard must've left the exterior announcement selected and you could hear the announcement as it was halfway to Moorfields! Also might explain the 'tinniness' of the manual announcements as it's being recorded on a phone microphone.

 

[childwallblues]

My day out yesterday comprised on travel on both Northern and Merseyrail. Whist the guard did not appear between Lime Street and Wigan North Western or from there to Preston. From Preston to Bolton and later from Salford Crescent to Ince the Northern guards were through the train after each stop,

 

[Prime586]

Talking of the PIS, this was the internal lower-level screen over the wheelchair space on my trip to work this morning.
View attachment 189846
Not only do we know the video screens run Linux, they also run systemd and have a locking bug ...

The PIS is supplied by Teleste (based in Finland). Their display modules run a custom build of Debian. The single board computers they run on are supplied by Italian industrial electronics company Seco. The hardware and software provide a Java platform that hosts custom Java display applications.

That particular error looks like the kernel on CPU 1 is getting stuck in an infinite loop when handling a particular hardware device