Project Oval: TfL win DfT contract to expand contactless system to 233 rail stations by May 2024, Railcards coming to contactless payment cards

[aron2smith]

On that basis you will be happy if GA remove the day return fare then.

Yes and they made the period return cost the same as the current day return. Any fare simplification must ensure flexibility remains at the heart of the railway.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 31 Aug 2025 ==

Morally I agree, however rail fares aren't mileage based. Market-based pricing has long been in operation in the UK, which dictates that day trippers are offered cheaper fares than other passengers.

I was under the impression of this forum, those day tripper fares came about in BR/ Network South East days. So what exists now is a weird mixture (a proper mess!) of the fares from BR times and whatever the private companies decided to introduce on top, in the past 3 decades. Hence why it's so absurdly complicated and inconsistent. Of note, super off peaks are withdrawn in places with Oval fares already, but to me that is a fair trade off for the impact on fares elsewhere, which I see as pretty positive overall. The main reason I'm so keen is the contactless fares and paper tickets will cost the same, so a railcard discount is still available that way.

Yes.

Cool! Not to bring politics in to it too much, but hopefully they see the carnage of this summer as a sign to announce a bunch of policies and announcements from all departments between Parliament coming back this week and the start of the party conferences.

 

[Bletchleyite]

On that basis you will be happy if GA remove the day return fare then.

The fair way to do it is to do it revenue neutrally. As short distance period returns are not as often sold as day returns, this should mean only a very small increase.

 

[Hadders]

I was under the impression of this forum, those day tripper fares came about in BR/ Network South East days. So what exists now is a weird mixture (a proper mess!) of the fares from BR times and whatever the private companies decided to introduce on top, in the past 3 decades. Hence why it's so absurdly complicated and inconsistent. Of note, super off peaks are withdrawn in places with Oval fares already, but to me that is a fair trade off for the impact on fares elsewhere, which I see as pretty positive overall. The main reason I'm so keen is the contactless fares and paper tickets will cost the same, so a railcard discount is still available that way.

Don't think that fares under BR were 'simple' because they weren't. The reality is with 2,500+ stations and tickets between each pair of them there is always going to be complexity.

 

[Kerrids]

2026 rollout planning starting? Tunbridge Wells has a planning application in to add contactless card readers for the night entrances… https://twbcpa.midkent.gov.uk/onlin...ils.do?keyVal=T1PG76TYI6T00&activeTab=summary

 

[Harryeurostar]

looking at the planning permissions it looks like the readers at tunbridge wells will be the pillar type instead of the box or gate line validators we’ve seen at the other stations, reminds me of the ones southern use for their keygo. That planning permission sheet also lays out the blueprint of where exactly the readers will be located which is pretty interesting to look at, Is tunbridge wells a listed station and this is why these have been put up?

 

[dmncf]

2026 rollout planning starting? Tunbridge Wells has a planning application in to add contactless card readers for the night entrances… https://twbcpa.midkent.gov.uk/onlin...ils.do?keyVal=T1PG76TYI6T00&activeTab=summary

I notice that in Design, Access & Heritage Statement section 2.4 there's a mistake where it says "West Malling Station". There's no planning application yet for West Malling Station, but I guess the same consultant has produced a document for West Malling Station and it's coming soon.

 

[Kerrids]

View attachment 188105looking at the planning permissions it looks like the readers at tunbridge wells will be the pillar type instead of the box or gate line validators we’ve seen at the other stations, reminds me of the ones southern use for their keygo. That planning permission sheet also lays out the blueprint of where exactly the readers will be located which is pretty interesting to look at, Is tunbridge wells a listed station and this is why these have been put up?

The main ticket hall and gate line are closed at night, so they need readers by the night exit as well. I suspect the main gates will also be upgraded. Yup it’s listed (as as West Malling) but no others on the line from Sevenoaks are, so we won’t know if anything is happening there….

 

[swr455]

View attachment 188105looking at the planning permissions it looks like the readers at tunbridge wells will be the pillar type instead of the box or gate line validators we’ve seen at the other stations, reminds me of the ones southern use for their keygo. That planning permission sheet also lays out the blueprint of where exactly the readers will be located which is pretty interesting to look at, Is tunbridge wells a listed station and this is why these have been put up?

These match the 'Uber Boats' style reader that have appeared at Clandon and Horsley as TEW mentioned, although without the light up top part that I think is present at the SWR stations (perhaps because of listing concerns)

Indeed. So it's interesting that they have been installed already. They're the same readers as installed at the Uber Boats stations in London I believe rather than the more commonly found rail style. It was briefed internally as being in preparation for further rollout of Contactless though.

 

[Lewis66655]

I’ve noticed new readers are being installed at West Byfleet

 

[JaJaWa]

Harpenden (and presumably surrounding stations) got those riverboat type validators, but it seems they were only good enough for GTR’s smartcard, as a year later they were ripped out and replaced with the TfL type ones to enable Contactless

 

[Bumpkin]

Leatherhead has had new validators installed this week.

 

[Chriso]

Harlington (Beds) has riverboat style maybe the ex Harpenden ones as previously mentioned

 

[Haywain]

Harlington (Beds) has riverboat style maybe the ex Harpenden ones as previously mentioned

I believe Harlington has had validators for quite some time as it is within the KeyGo area.

 

[itfcfan]

I believe Harlington has had validators for quite some time as it is within the KeyGo area.

The Harlington validators were changed earlier this summer. I took this photo when I noticed the new validators on 27th July (my previous visit to Harlington was in early June, so I think the new validators were changed sometime in that range).

 

[Edvid]

Phase 2A scheduled to go live in December 2025, as per TfL's Q1 2025/26 Investment Programme Report.

8.7.6. Payments: [...] In readiness for the launch of contactless acceptance at 49 Train Operating Company stations in December 2025, we have installed and assured all 83 wireless passenger validators. We have also developed the fares setting tool, MCaaS, enabling it to produce a complete fare file in readiness for launch of all future expansions of our contactless pay as you go system. This enables our contactless system to ingest approximately 250,000 additional National Rail fares into our back-office systems. This is a significant milestone for the project.

[P.S. What does "MCaaS" stand for?]

 

[Bletchleyite]

Phase 2A scheduled to go live in December 2025, as per TfL's Q1 2025/26 Investment Programme Report.

[P.S. What does "MCaaS" stand for?]

2A includes Aylesbury Vale does it not? Will be nice to pay off peak fares on the way in, my train of choice if going from there is the 0619 as it's 168 worked. That will save a good few quid!

 

[MikeWh]

2A includes Aylesbury Vale does it not? Will be nice to pay off peak fares on the way in, my train of choice if going from there is the 0619 as it's 168 worked. That will save a good few quid!

Yes, the rest of Chiltern to Aylesbury Vale Parkway (both ways) is included. You do already get early off-peak from Bletchley though?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Yes, the rest of Chiltern to Aylesbury Vale Parkway (both ways) is included. You do already get early off-peak from Bletchley though?

Indeed so, but I sometimes use Chiltern for a change, particularly if the weather is rubbish so I'm going to drive to the station anyway as the car park at Vale Parkway is only just over three quid. And there's just something nice and civilised about Chiltern, particularly the Met. Nice that it will get about a tenner cheaper to do so, though the downside I guess is that that train will be a little busier as the last "off peak" one (hopefully it won't be swapped to a 165 to make it longer ).

Edit: 0616 at the moment, the leaf fall timetable has started.

 

[jfollows]

Phase 2A scheduled to go live in December 2025, as per TfL's Q1 2025/26 Investment Programme Report.



[P.S. What does "MCaaS" stand for?]

One suggestion is “Managed Content as a Service” (yuk) but https://oysterfares.com/walthamstow-central-update-on-overcharging/#google_vignette says

“In the TfL PAYG system, all flows need a “no intermediate clicks” route set. This would come into play if you for example change from High Wycombe at West Ruislip, Central line to Oxford Circus, Victoria line to Walthamstow Central. Because MCaaS [the system to convert NR fares for the TfL Back Office] isn’t working properly yet, the fares for Phase 1 were manually corrected with overrides. When the system is fully working Chiltern (and the other examples are from West Midlands Trains) could choose to remove all these weird routes and set the no clicks, default, and via Marylebone routes all at the same price, so this discrepancy would disappear. But for the moment Phase 1 is still using the manual overrides and correcting this in the manual overrides is laborious. As very few people would choose to take this slow route option, it isn’t a priority to resolve.
So it’s not a question of using NR or LU, but whether you get no intermediate clicks to trigger the other fares.”

 

[sammyg901]

2A includes Aylesbury Vale does it not? Will be nice to pay off peak fares on the way in, my train of choice if going from there is the 0619 as it's 168 worked. That will save a good few quid!

My usual train too ! With a network railcard discounted single back. I too wonder if this train will get busier as a result as anyone without a season ticket using the 0633 from Aylesbury or Stoke Mandeville will surely switch to it, though doesn't bother me as the entire morning worth of AVP passengers would need to switch before I'd have an issue getting a seat

 

[Bletchleyite]

My usual train too ! With a network railcard discounted single back. I too wonder if this train will get busier as a result as anyone without a season ticket using the 0633 from Aylesbury or Stoke Mandeville will surely switch to it, though doesn't bother me as the entire morning worth of AVP passengers would need to switch before I'd have an issue getting a seat

As I say I do hope they don't swap the formation with the 0700 (normally 5 cars of 165) though I could see that they might if the loading levels swap, I guess it depends what the 168 goes onto next (168s on the Aylesbury branch are generally used to take them down to Marylebone from Aylesbury depot and get them out on the mainline, or bring them back in the evening). I'd then have to debate whether the significantly increased comfort of a 168 was worth a tenner

I suppose, though, that it's still after 0630 from Amersham, unless people tap in early and hang around.

AVP itself is of course pretty much never busy at any time of day, it's just how many will pile on at Aylesbury that might change substantially.

Of course they still can use the 0633 from AYS if they prefer that, it's tap in time, not train time, that counts. The 0634 from Bletchley is similarly fair game, just make sure you get there a bit early

 

[sammyg901]

oh yes of course , brain not engaged !

Any overcrowding would really only impact passengers boarding at Amersham and I don’t think Chiltern cares too much about them so I don’t think there would be any changes to formation. But it is interesting that there are these impacts , as you get further away from London 0630 isn’t particularly early

 

[Bletchleyite]

Any overcrowding would really only impact passengers boarding at Amersham and I don’t think Chiltern cares too much about them so I don’t think there would be any changes to formation. But it is interesting that there are these impacts , as you get further away from London 0630 isn’t particularly early

Indeed. If it ever gets as far out as say Northampton, Bournemouth, Brighton and the likes income would plummet because most people would be going before 0630. This may be one contributing reason to the intended "final" boundaries being where they are and not quite covering the whole former Network SouthEast area, perhaps?

 

[PLY2AYS]

Indeed. If it ever gets as far out as say Northampton, Bournemouth, Brighton and the likes income would plummet because most people would be going before 0630. This may be one contributing reason to the intended "final" boundaries being where they are and not quite covering the whole former Network SouthEast area, perhaps?

Isn’t Brighton included? Or have I got my wires crossed?

Either way, it will be interesting to see how this affects the commutes.

It’ll still no doubt be pandemonium on fast Tuesday morning services into MYB from AVP all along the Met.
You’ll hear my sighs from the front cab no doubt.

 

[Sleepy]

Be interesting to see the affect on 0613 from Witham being 5 car (also calls Beaulieu Park & Chelmsford) and the 0500 Norwich which calls at Chelmsford 0618 and is pretty full now.

 

[aron2smith]

Phase 2A is all the stations the government announced for contactless back in January isn't it?

Also would this be a random day in December or linked to a fares period or the day of the timetable change?

I am wondering how many phases there will be too. The government announced as far north as Baldock so I would be surprised if this system didn't eventually reach the likes of Royston, Audley End and Cambridge.

And a bit of a shame that TFL seems to have given up on it's staff magazine, Ticketing and Revenue Update, it explained this stuff in such good detail.

 

[JonathanH]

Also would this be a random day in December or linked to a fares period or the day of the timetable change?

It was first weekend in December last year, rather than the timetable change a week later.

Interesting to see implicit confirmation that TfL style readers aren't being installed at these stations.

 

[MikeWh]

Also would this be a random day in December or linked to a fares period or the day of the timetable change?

The earliest it will be is the fare change day in December (probably Sun 7th). There doesn't seem to be much reason to delay beyond that - timetable changes won't affect fares in any way.

And a bit of a shame that TFL seems to have given up on it's staff magazine, Ticketing and Revenue Update, it explained this stuff in such good detail.

I second that. It was paused by the cyber security incident, then the person who edited it all retired, as I understand it, so I'm not sure whether it will ever return.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 1 Oct 2025 ==

Phase 2A scheduled to go live in December 2025, as per TfL's Q1 2025/26 Investment Programme Report.

Supplementary question: The report mentions 49 stations, but since that list was published there will be a new station opened within the applicable area. Will Beaulieu Park be included? You can't search for it under stations on NRE, which is a bit concerning.

 

[Edvid]

Phase 2A is all the stations the government announced for contactless back in January isn't it?

Yes, alongside the Phase 1B stations that went live the following February.

I am wondering how many phases there will be too. The government announced as far north as Baldock so I would be surprised if this system didn't eventually reach the likes of Royston, Audley End and Cambridge.

MrJeeves drew a map (link) where the shading is as follows:

Blue: pre-Oval + Phase 1A
Green: Phase 1B
Pink: Phase 2A
Yellow: remainder of Phase 2 [no dates or sub-phases announced to date]

And a bit of a shame that TFL seems to have given up on it's staff magazine, Ticketing and Revenue Update, it explained this stuff in such good detail.

I second that. It was paused by the cyber security incident, then the person who edited it all retired, as I understand it, so I'm not sure whether it will ever return.

TfL suggested end of last February / April for internal publication of issue #155 in reply to previous FoI requests, and their current position seems to be 'no date yet'. Come Xmas (if not done by someone else in the meantime) I may submit a request specifically asking if they've decided to stop compiling TRUs.

 

[JonathanH]

The earliest it will be is the fare change day in December (probably Sun 7th). There doesn't seem to be much reason to delay beyond that - timetable changes won't affect fares in any way.

Presumably four weeks before that for the corresponding 'paper' fare changes for advance purchase of tickets from 7 December including the potential removal of weekend super off peak tickets where relevant and afternoon peak restrictions on off-peak fares?