Pyjama Party to save the NightJet

[brooklynbound]

There's going to be a protest at Gare de l'Est in Paris tomorrow over the possible withdrawl on NightJet services in France because SNCF doesn't want to subsidise them.

Translated from the French social media post I saw

Friday 26th, meeting at 6pm on the forecourt at the Vélib' station for a peaceful action until the departure of the Nighjet train at 7:12pm. A stroll with music and pyjamas in the station to raise awareness among passengers and congratulate those who board.
A group of members of the collective will board a train to Berlin to represent the collective at the European Back on Track conference on September 27 and 28. Join us in pyjamas, dressing gown with your pillows, cuddly toys, banners, signs with the destination of the trains of your dreams... The traditional stuffed animal throwing will take place at the station! See you soon in your pyjamas and long live the night train! The Yes to the Night Train collective

 

[signed]

Is SNCF not wanting to subsidise them the whole story? Or is it again taking SNCF as the scapegoat (it's not their operation though they are involved with it) because that's how France likes to do it.

Nightjets from/to France have been very very regularly impacted by German trackworks, mostly around Stuttgart, sometimes cutting the service for months at a time like back in May.

 

[PrincesWinsdor]

In this case, could overnight passengers switch to flights as overnight trains have become less attractive?

 

[signed]

In this case, could overnight passengers switch to flights as overnight trains have become less attractive?

Nightjet pricing alone has probably steered a lot of potential custom onto flights. Though they are recordly profitable.

Without a pass, it's simply much more cost-efficient to take a flight to Bratislava (flights to Vienna being very much in the business travel category) and then bus to Vienna + an hotel room than taking the Nightjet

 

[PrincesWinsdor]

Nightjet pricing alone has probably steered a lot of potential custom onto flights. Though they are recordly profitable.

Without a pass, it's simply much more cost-efficient to take a flight to Bratislava (flights to Vienna being very much in the business travel category) and then bus to Vienna + an hotel room than taking the Nightjet

As someone who has never travelled on a sleeper train, flight+hotel vs sleeper train, can someone list out the pros and cons of each option other than cost?

 

[Gag Halfrunt]

Short piece by Jon Worth on why the Paris Nightjet might be cancelled:

SNCF's half hearted effort to support international night trains in danger of hitting the buffers

In December 2023 the Paris-Berlin night train re-started after a 9 year hiatus. Operated as a Nighjet service by ÖBB, SNCF provided motive power for the train from Mannheim to Paris. They even put SNCF stickers on some of the carriages, and ÖBB lauded the launch of the

jonworth.eu

In December 2023 the Paris-Berlin night train re-started after a 9 year hiatus. Operated as a Nighjet service by ÖBB, SNCF provided motive power for the train from Mannheim to Paris. They even put SNCF stickers on some of the carriages, and ÖBB lauded the launch of the service as an example of how state railways working together could provide services like this.

But now – according to BFM TV today – the service might end in December this year, and I have checked with my own sources to confirm this is seriously being considered within SNCF. The train departs from Paris and splits – one part to Berlin, one part to Vienna – and both would be axed. This would leave France without any international night train at all.

The problem, ultimately, is SNCF has never really wanted to bother with this train from the start. The service runs only three times a week, making it hard to ever plan to use it, and the idea to run it every day never materialised. Most absurd of all is that for the past 15 months you have not been able to buy tickets for the train on SNCF Connect or at any SNCF ticket office. Great that SNCF cannot sell tickets for a train service in which it is notionally a partner! And despite that – according to BFM TV – the service was still running 70% full.

SNCF is of course trying to point to the likely end of the launch subsidy for the service that was offered by the French government to start the service. That is in danger of being cut as a result of the current French budgetary crisis, but a SNCF that was keen on this service would itself be lobbying hard to keep the subsidy. However given SNCF’s half hearted commitment to the service I seriously doubt they are doing that. Point the finger at the government – it’s easier.

ÖBB uses a leased Siemens Vectron locomotive for the Nightjet to Brussels, but that option is not open here – France is pretty much the only standard gauge European country where Vectron is not approved to run. Turning to someone else – a company like Train Charter for example – is unlikely as ÖBB’s approach has always been to partner with other state owned railways for services like this. But when SNCF does not really want to partner with you, ÖBB finds itself in a complicated situation.

In the end – as I outlined earlier this summer in this article for The Guardian – this is just the latest in a series of false dawns for European night trains. Passengers like them, there is obvious demand, but railway operators are mostly ambivalent, and the European Commission just pays lip service to solving the problems of overnight services.

It’s as if those in the management of SNCF are not interested in anything that doesn’t go 300km/h and doesn’t get you to Paris in a maximum of three hours. And we, the passengers who do want something else, are the victims of that narrow minded approach.

 

[PrincesWinsdor]

Short piece by Jon Worth on why the Paris Nightjet might be cancelled:

SNCF's half hearted effort to support international night trains in danger of hitting the buffers

In December 2023 the Paris-Berlin night train re-started after a 9 year hiatus. Operated as a Nighjet service by ÖBB, SNCF provided motive power for the train from Mannheim to Paris. They even put SNCF stickers on some of the carriages, and ÖBB lauded the launch of the

jonworth.eu

Is it feasible for ÖBB to run the train all the way into Paris without using SNCF motive power? Given that the main problem is that SNCF doesn't want to subsidise the service?

 

[signed]

All of that make sense but have plans changed that much?

The plans were, from what I read here, that displaced Comfortline would have been used to make the service daily, but has been delayed by the NJ NG introduction.

It’s as if those in the management of SNCF are not interested in anything that doesn’t go 300km/h and doesn’t get you to Paris in a maximum of three hours. And we, the passengers who do want something else, are the victims of that narrow minded approach.

TGV-only has been the policy of all forms of SNCF, for decades now. It's not surprising

Nothing to do with the gov either since SNCF Voyageurs is a state-owned private company and operates as such and makes a very sizeable profit. And I don't see why it's a problem you can't buy it through SNCF channels?

Is it feasible for ÖBB to run the train all the way into Paris?

They won't have any locos to run it themselves

 

[AlexNL]

Is it feasible for ÖBB to run the train all the way into Paris?

As far as my knowledge goes, ÖBB do not have a safety certificate to operate within France. They also do not have a suitable locomotive for it, hence working together with SNCF.

 

[PrincesWinsdor]

As far as my knowledge goes, ÖBB do not have a safety certificate to operate within France. They also do not have a suitable locomotive for it, hence working together with SNCF.

Maybe now it's time for them to get a safety certificate on SNCF's network, similar to how the ICE got it's. But looking at that example, it would probably take years before that could be done.

 

[signed]

But looking at that example, it would probably take years.

Depends who you are

If you are Trenitalia, you can get the ETR1000 certified to service in 3 years. If you are Renfe it will take a decade (but that's mostly down to Renfe and Talgo being incompetent, but rumors are that SNCF may be also taking some stance)

Nobody* wants to run Vectrons in France, else they would have been certified.

*Again down to the all-highspeed and the plentiful loco stock of SNCF

 

[williamn]

Nightjet pricing alone has probably steered a lot of potential custom onto flights. Though they are recordly profitable.

Without a pass, it's simply much more cost-efficient to take a flight to Bratislava (flights to Vienna being very much in the business travel category) and then bus to Vienna + an hotel room than taking the Nightjet

Not all customers make decisions based on price alone. Lots of sleeper services are consistently full despite being a more expensive option than a budget airline.

 

[signed]

Lots of sleeper services are consistently full despite being a more expensive option than a budget airline.

Of course

 

[PrincesWinsdor]

Depends who you are

If you are Trenitalia, you can get the ETR1000 certified to service in 3 years. If you are Renfe it will take a decade (but that's mostly down to Renfe and Talgo being incompetent, but rumors are that SNCF may be also taking some stance)

Nobody* wants to run Vectrons in France, else they would have been certified.

*Again down to the all-highspeed and the plentiful loco stock of SNCF

Typical when it comes to Siemens trains attempting to enter France.

 

[signed]

Typical when it comes to Siemens trains attempting to enter France

They don't have any issues as long as they have Alstom KVB signalling kits.

Which all? 406/407/408 ICEs have and I would guess most German local trains (is Strasbourg station German/French or dual signalled?)

 

[PrincesWinsdor]

They don't have any issues as long as they have Alstom signalling kits. Which all? ICE have and I would guess most German local trains (is Strasbourg station German/French or dual signalled?)

Anything that isn't Alstom or Thales is usually not welcomed on SNCF's network.

 

[signed]

Anything that isn't Alstom or Thales is usually not welcomed on SNCF's network.

To play the devil's advocate, introducing a whole new system from a new manufacturer on legacy signalling ain't to be taken lightly either.

Actually, I am be wrong on the nobody wants to run Vectrons in France, Alpha Trains ordered 35 last year for France, so certification should come in the next few years.

La Vectron en essais d’autorisation en France - Rail Passion

Produit best-seller de Siemens, une locomotive Vectron est venue réaliser des essais à Plouaret pour obtenir l’autorisation de circulation de la plateforme en

www.railpassion.fr

Siemens has started the certification for French market back in 2023

Siemens Mobility a pris la décision de lancer les procédures pour obtenir l’autorisation de circulation en France car de nouvelles opportunités de placement sur le marché se profilent. Le renouveau attendu des trains de nuit en France est une des opportunités que Siemens Mobility compte saisir. Ce renouveau concerne autant les lignes existantes, de nouvelles liaisons conventionnées ainsi que de nouveaux acteurs opérant en open access. L’accroissement du fret est également une des voies pour permettre l’implantation hexagonale de la Vectron. Raisonnant avec une vision européenne, Siemens Mobility a pour ambition d’autoriser la Vectron sur les corridors de fret Est – Ouest et Nord – Sud traversant la France, pour obtenir une locomotive passe-frontière afin de permettre un accroissement des flux de fret ferroviaire au niveau européen. À noter que les futures machines aptes France seront équipées du STM (Specific Transmission Module) KVB en cours de développement et disponibles en 2024.

Siemens Mobility has taken the decision to launch the procedures to obtain the authorization of circulation in France because new opportunities for placement on the market are looming. The expected renewal of night trains in France is one of the opportunities that Siemens Mobility intends to seize. This renewal concerns the existing lines, new agreements and new players operating in open access. The increase in freight is also one of the routes to allow the hexagonal implantation of the Vectron. Reasoning with a European vision, Siemens Mobility aims to allow the Vectron on the East – West and North – South freight corridors crossing France, to obtain a border crossing locomotive in order to allow an increase in rail freight flows at European level. Note that future suitable France machines will be equipped with the STM (Specific Transmission Module) KVB under development and available in 2024.

From Firefox translation

 

[Struner]

As someone who has never travelled on a sleeper train, flight+hotel vs sleeper train, can someone list out the pros and cons of each option other than cost?

most people will get a better sleep in a hotel, train & hotel will take (much) longer than flight+hotel
high speed day trains is the answer

 

[AlexNL]

Anything that isn't Alstom or Thales is usually not welcomed on SNCF's network.

Not quite true, Bombardier's (now Alstom's) TRAXX locomotives have been running in France for more than a decade. Although even back then Bombardier had a production facility in France (Crespin) whereas Siemens do not.

 

[popeter45]

is a shame that its been axed, the failure to extend to daily like what was planned as well as Berlin-Brussels going sealed that

took it twice, once to Vienna and once to Berlin. Ironicly on both trips, the other portion was Canceled so many is angry passenger trying to find what TGV/ICE connections to take to get to their destination

wonder what the plan is with the stock now?, do they use that to extend Vienna-Brussels to Daily or use it to strengthen other routes

 

[30907]

wonder what the plan is with the stock now?, do they use that to extend Vienna-Brussels to Daily or use it to strengthen other routes

First step would be to lengthen the Brussels-Vienna portion which is a lot cheaper than running a second short set.
Second step would be to rejig the Amsterdam and Brussels routes to allow Amsterdam-Innsbruck and Brussels-Vienna to share a common trunk through Germany (this is assuming that Amsterdam-Vienna becomes a separate train as was proposed fairly recently - does anyone have an update on this? I know it already runs via Hamm etc).

 

[AlexNL]

Statement from ÖBB:
ÖBB bedauern die Einstellung der Nightjet Verbindungen Wien – Paris und Berlin – Paris

Statement from SNCF Voyageurs:
Trains de nuit PARIS-VIENNE et PARIS-BERLIN

 

[doc7austin]

SNCF admits that the average occupancy level was just 70%.
So much for the urban myth that the Nightjet to Parid was always sold out !

 

[NCT]

SNCF admits that the average occupancy level was just 70%.
So much for the urban myth that the Nightjet to Parid was always sold out !

If average occupancy is 70% then frequently sold out sounds entirely plausible.

 

[doc7austin]

This claim that the Nightjet to Paris was frequently sold out - I don't buy that.
Esp. when considering that many peoply cry "SOLD OUT", when in fact ÖBB has not even opened bookings for that train due to uncertain construction timetables in Germany.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

Isn't it pretty much common knowledge that SNCF (and the French state more generally) suffer from an even worse strain of "Not-Invented-Here-itis" than we Brits do?

They obviously aren't opposed to night trains on principle, as they're happy to subsidise their remaining domestic Intercities-de-Nuits operations. They just aren't happy about a foreign operator doing it.

 

[signed]

They obviously aren't opposed to night trains on principle, as they're happy to subsidise their remaining domestic Intercities-de-Nuits operations.

SNCF Voyageurs (the now privately run state owned operator) doesn't subsidise the night trains (and would rather not run them), the French gov itself does, and they themselves would rather kill them off but politics about that are dicey to say the least.

Isn't it pretty much common knowledge that SNCF (and the French state more generally) suffer from an even worse strain of "Not-Invented-Here-itis" than we Brits do?

On procurement yes, but the main SNCF (and to be fair French gov) issue (as was in the state run era and now in the SNCF Voyageurs era) is the one that has existed since the late 70s now, is they are still in the mentality of all TGV, cut everything else. Mentality which has basically decimated the intercity network.

If it's not a high-speed service, SNCF Voyageurs will want very very little to do with it, and would rather get it cut or shipped over to another operator as fast as possible. The biggest profits are made on high speed rail. The only exception being Ouigo Train Classique, but I have no idea how that got started.

 

[rvdborgt]

This claim that the Nightjet to Paris was frequently sold out - I don't buy that.

I've seen multiple sold out trains on that route, especially in summer or around holidays.
However, we just don't know how many were in fact sold out, and how occupancy compares with other routes. It would also be interesting to have separate numbers for seats, couchettes and sleepers. I suspect that couchettes and sleepers are sold out a lot more often than seats but we just don't have the data.

 

[AdamWW]

SNCF Voyageurs (the now privately run state owned operator) doesn't subsidise the night trains (and would rather not run them), the French gov itself does, and they themselves would rather kill them off but politics about that are dicey to say the least.

Didn't the government re-introduce some night services a few years ago that had previously been removed?

 

[signed]

Didn't the government re-introduce some night services a few years ago that had previously been removed?

They did, a part immediately after Macron's first election, and the most recent as part of the post-COVID/election political games.

They are crucial for some communities but that's the same thing with the day Intercités on the POLT line (the classical Paris-Orléans-Limoges-Toulouse), neglect (the night stock isn't and is quite well maintained for it's 40 year age, but the whole operation) and unwillingness by the central government to do anything that is not high speed.

There is a tender currently ongoing since Feburary about leasing new stock and locos for the night train in replacement but the current economical and political situation will probably impact this as well.