Trainbike46
Established Member
That only applies if a lease is terminated early. Does anyone know how long the lease has left on it? I'd be surprised if it is very long into the future, and you'd need a period of overlap anyway.
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Future of the 350/2s
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QSK19
Member
I seem to remember reading in the forums somewhere that, in order to secure a comprehensive refurbishment, EMR had to agree to lease the 360s well into the 2030s.
I could be very wrong, but I do seem to remember reading it somewhere. It goes without saying that I defer to those with knowledge of this and are able to speak about it publicly.
D365
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Plus there’s no guarantee that Porterbrook would be able to match the terms of the Class 360 lease agreement.
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
If they haven't learnt the lesson then they have no hope. What would they prefer? A lease or scrap?
A choice is going to need to be made soon, the whole fleet comes off lease in December and storage costs will start to add up.
I think if there is no home by say January 2027 then the 350/2s will be scrapped.
No point holding on to the fleet if no home can be found.
I think if there is no home by say January 2027 then the 350/2s will be scrapped.
No point holding on to the fleet if no home can be found.
Trainbike46
Established Member
I guess that settles it - refurbished 360s will definitely beat the 350s, so the 360s are staying and the 350s aren't coming to EMR.
That doesn't mean the 350s are useful for the East Midlands though
Nym
Established Member
What storage costs exactly, other than needing to turn the wheels there's no cost to Porterbrook for Cold Store, even Warm Store isn't that expensive at Long Marston.
Other than of course, loss of space they could sell to someone else.
My bad I was unaware of how cheep leasing costs on the railway are.
Anyway, I still think if no home is found for the 350/2s by January 2027 they will be scrapped.
Would be a shame to see the fleet scrapped, but if it happens then Porterbrook had it coming/deserve it.
Anyway, I still think if no home is found for the 350/2s by January 2027 they will be scrapped.
Would be a shame to see the fleet scrapped, but if it happens then Porterbrook had it coming/deserve it.
QSK19
Member
As I said before, I do stand corrected if I’m wrong; but if what I recall is indeed accurate, then a chocolate fireguard has more chance of surviving a heatwave than the 350/2s gracing the MML.
TT-ONR-NRN
Veteran Member
Got a source?
Nym
Established Member
More that Porterbrook own their own storage areas, so don't need to "pay for it" per ce.
Halish Railway
Established Member
Maybe this is what Alex Hornby is hinting at.
Keep watching!
brad465
Veteran Member
I'd have thought that's more likely to be in relation to Northern's massive fleet order plans, particularly as 350/2s going there wouldn't be "something big".
It's a flash sale. That is it.
Southern Dvr
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If anyone was interested in the 350/2 units they’re have shown their hand by now. They are only being stored because of the negative publicity that would come from such young units going to scrap. But scrap is the only place they’re likely to go I’m afraid.
TT-ONR-NRN
Veteran Member
The 379s were long all parked up before it was announced they were going to Great Northern.
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
I'm sorry but that's really not true. How long did it take Chiltern to agree the Mk5s? We must have been talking about it for well over a year beforehand with rumours no more credible than these.
bramling
Veteran Member
I think there’s a bit of a difference, as the 379s always seem to have been aspirationally lined up for GN. The 350/2s don’t seem to have anywhere where they result in a fairly neat fit.
The only obvious applications on paper are
* Northern 323 replacement
* GWR 387 replacement then 387 to GTR
* EMR 360/2 replacement
No other franchise seems to need any additional electrics, and all the above have issues in terms of actually doing it.
Reality is too many EMUs ordered.
I guess as a wild card it could be possible to split off some of the electric parts of XC, but I just can’t see it happening.
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
This is true. The 350/2s could have stayed at WMT had Porterbrook not been greedy and called WMT's bluff with high lease charges. Instead it was cheaper to order new, so WMT did. A refurb to 2+2 would have been nice but otherwise they're well liked just like the other 350s are, while WMT could have added capacity by ordering a slightly larger number of the 3-car units, allowing more 12 car 350 running and maybe 9 car 730 formations on some peak WCML stoppers.
I don't however think sending them to Northern would be insurmountable, and the 323s are getting old. They might be a bit slow on the dwell for Hadfield, but that's fairly unique among Northern's EMU routes in basically being like a heavy rail Metrolink with stations very close together - most of the other stuff has wider station spacings so the slow doors would be less of an issue, and they are good units and would add a bit of capacity over single 323s. And you've got utter nonsense like 150s (far slower off the mark) working Hazel Grove stoppers meaning the wires there are once again completely unused... (Yes, I know, they're interworked, but it's still nonsensical).
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Scotrail needs more EMUs (well one more electric diagram from December for East Kilbride).
The_Train
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Or because the owners of the units still believe they can make them more money from them as operational units and would prefer to go down that route than scrapping them
Northern want to replace their 323 fleet with the new build Class 382s.
Only way Northern are taking the 350/2s is if the Class 382 fleet is delayed, as the 323s have to be gone by 2031.
bramling
Veteran Member
I can’t really see them going there. The need for more EMUs at SR has been foreseen for some while, and they had ample opportunity to take some further 321s which would have been fully compatible with their existing fleet. The fact that they didn’t suggests they’re not interested.
(Now I’ve written this look out for announcement that they’re going to ScotRail to replace the 318s or something!)
Lol.(Now I’ve written this look out for announcement that they’re going to ScotRail to replace the 318s or something!)
Seriously though I don't see the 350/2s ever going to Scotrail.
Neither do I really, would either be a microfleet to meet new electrification shortfall, or full replacement of 318s, until new fleet order is complete.
Just out of curiosity, does anyone know how similar 350 and 380 cab layouts are? 380s have external cameras for DOO, were these ever added to 350/2 (sorry probably somewhere in this thread)
There is an argument to be made that it fits with Scotrail's fleet simplification, as they are very similar to 380s.
If Porterbrook are sticking with the poor leasing terms of very high mileage charges, stick them on Cathcart Circle services, where they would cover almost no distance. (I am sure the ROSCO could see that coming and adjust their terms accordingly)
The charges are going to have to be lowered if Porterbrook wants anybody to lease the 350/2 fleet imo.
bramling
Veteran Member
They might have already boxed themselves into a corner, as it’s now reached the point where seems there’s virtually nowhere for them to go. Even a deal involving the 323s isn’t good for the leasco as it simply changes one redundant fleet for another.
The mistake seems to have been made when the fleet wasn’t included as part of the LNwR franchise.
All this said, I suspect some kind of curved ball will emerge. The optics of scrapping further half-life trains just aren’t good, it was bad enough with the 365s.
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
Though I suppose to be fair the Heathrow 360s were I think scrapped in the end and were of similar vintage?
TT-ONR-NRN
Veteran Member
Comparatively tiny, tiny fleet though, and only two got scrapped.
That deal won't happen unless Northern's fleet of 382s gets delayed.
I agree a deal involving the 323s would be bad for Porterbrook.
I mean Northern would only want the 350/2s temporarily until enough 382s entered service to bin off the 323s, and again that is only if there is a delay with the 382s.
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