Delayed train travel with Advance ticket via different operator?

[Roy1234]

I was advised this question might best be answered here:

I buy an advanced ticket from station A to station C, meaning only valid on the specified/timed services. This involves changing at station B. But the first leg of the journey, A to B, meets delays en route. As a result, I arrive at B too late to catch the specified B to C train.

I'm entitled, I believe, to catch the next available train, the delay having not been my fault. However both legs of my journey are with the same operator, with the word 'Only' after that operator's name.

The next available train from B to C is with a different train operator. If I catch that train, is my ticket still valid, or should I await the next available train from my ticket's specified operator?

 

[bcarmicle]

In general, you would have to wait for the specified operator's next train. However, if the consequential delay would then be over an hour, you may have rights under EU Regulation 1371/2007 (also known as PRO rights) for rerouting. There's a government webpage with more information. Specific operators may have prearranged agreements with other operators in the event of delay or cancellation, but this would depend on the specific operator involved.

In any case it is always worth asking for permission from the train manager/ticket office for permission to travel on a train if your ticket would otherwise be invalid, since you have nothing to lose in that scenario (though it might be prudent to gain written authorisation in case of a later dispute).

 

[Mcr Warrior]

@Roy1234. Depending on who the operator was who caused the initial delay from 'A' to 'B', and the actual delay time in arriving at your final destination 'C', you may be entitled to an element of "Delay Repay". Details of how much you're due can however vary.

 

[Tester]

@Roy1234. Depending on who the operator was who caused the initial delay from 'A' to 'B', and the actual delay time in arriving at your final destination 'C', you may be entitled to an element of "Delay Repay". Details of how much you're due can however vary.

It would of course be much more customer friendly (and save the railway money!) to help the customer minimise their delay by allowing them to travel on the next available train. The Germans can manage it!

 

[MarlowDonkey]

I buy an advanced ticket from station A to station C, meaning only valid on the specified/timed services. This involves changing at station B. But the first leg of the journey, A to B, meets delays en route. As a result, I arrive at B too late to catch the specified B to C train.

This headache also arises if you buy a ticket that's flexible regarding train times but is confined to a particular operator. For that reason I am cautious about dowgrading off peak tickets from any operator to an Open Access operator with less frequent services.

 

[Roy1234]

Thanks for the replies. It would seem my ticket isn't valid with another operator, unless prior consent is obtained, which can be difficult changing trains in a hurry when delayed. I think in future I may get separate tickets for the two legs, the shorter one being an open return not restricted to any single operator.

 

[_toommm_]

Thanks for the replies. It would seem my ticket isn't valid with another operator, unless prior consent is obtained, which can be difficult changing trains in a hurry when delayed. I think in future I may get separate tickets for the two legs, the shorter one being an open return not restricted to any single operator.

It would help knowing what exactly the A, B, and C stations are in the example, along with which TOC restriction is on your ticket. There are some reciprocal ticket acceptance agreements permanelty in place at the minute by the DfT-controlled TOCs, but without knowing the information it's hard to advise.

 

[yorkie]

I was advised this question might best be answered here:

I buy an advanced ticket from station A to station C, meaning only valid on the specified/timed services. This involves changing at station B. But the first leg of the journey, A to B, meets delays en route. As a result, I arrive at B too late to catch the specified B to C train.

I'm entitled, I believe, to catch the next available train, the delay having not been my fault. However both legs of my journey are with the same operator, with the word 'Only' after that operator's name.

The next available train from B to C is with a different train operator. If I catch that train, is my ticket still valid, or should I await the next available train from my ticket's specified operator?

Sorry, I don't do algebra. If we can be informed of the exact journey and operators involved, we can answer.

 

[Starmill]

This headache also arises if you buy a ticket that's flexible regarding train times but is confined to a particular operator. For that reason I am cautious about dowgrading off peak tickets from any operator to an Open Access operator with less frequent services.

Normally in this situation you have the option to book a new ticket for the operator you wish to change to, and cancel your existing ticket booking completely, without penalties.

Of course, the risk of this being a hassle and the loss of the time value of some of your money, despite not being actual cash losses, are still important to some people.

If you're travelling with Northern, EMR or TransPennine Express, inter-availability is mutual and automatic when your service is cancelled. The same applies to Northern, LNER and TransPennine Express. It doesn't apply between EMR and LNER. There are further awkward permutations of this involving Southeastern.

 

[Roy1234]

As it's been requested, the original two journeys were with EMR 'only' whilst the next available substitute for the delayed second leg was with Cross Country.

 

[Haywain]

As it's been requested, the original two journeys were with EMR 'only' whilst the next available substitute for the delayed second leg was with Cross Country.

That’s no help at all. What journey are you making and what tickets have you bought?

 

[Mcr Warrior]

So, where on the GB network does EMR run trains on the same section of line as Cross Country? Stockport to/from Manchester Piccadilly, perhaps? Sheffield to/from Chesterfield/Derby/Long Eaton, maybe? @Roy1234. Could you possibly clarify?

 

[ainsworth74]

It's quite hard to give advice on hypotheticals but broadly speaking, as has been noted, you are automatically entitled to take the next train of the operator with which you were booked and/or named against the Route field (i.e. EMR Only). If that delay is going to be more than an hour or more then you should be accommodated on any operators service which will get you to your destination, industry practice at following this is, however, lacking to put it mildly. Most staff on the ground appear to have not been made aware of the industries legal duties under Passenger Rights & Obligations (PRO) to re-routeing when a delay of an hour or more is, or is likely to be, incurred. Though many are pragmatic (I've had plenty of guards allow me to travel when an original service has been cancelled or delayed even though they're a different operator) to be clear!

I'm not quite sure how splitting your tickets would help however (this is why we would like to know about the journey) as your rights remain the same split or not (as long as a valid itinerary is held). If you're concerned about privacy could you perhaps use stations nearby to your actual station so as to obscure your location but allow us to assist?

 

[Roy1234]

In this case A was Norwich, B was Nottingham, C was Derby. Notts to Derby can be on services by EMR or CC. I didn't give details as I didn't think it mattered and have faced this quandary before with different two-legged journeys, so it was a general enquiry thinking (perhaps wrongly) that there was a general rule. If the actual stations do make such a difference to the your rights, and certain TOCs do reciprocal favours to certain other TOCs, but not others, how is Jo Public on a delayed service supposed to know how this works short of seeking customer services advice each time so adding to the delay?

 

[Tester]

In this case A was Norwich, B was Nottingham, C was Derby. Notts to Derby can be on services by EMR or CC. I didn't give details as I didn't think it mattered and have faced this quandary before with different two-legged journeys, so it was a general enquiry thinking (perhaps wrongly) that there was a general rule. If the actual stations do make such a difference to the your rights, and certain TOCs do reciprocal favours to certain other TOCs, but not others, how is Jo Public on a delayed service supposed to know how this works short of seeking customer services advice each time so adding to the delay?

You have worked out that, sadly, the railway simply doesn't care.

 

[Haywain]

how is Jo Public on a delayed service supposed to know how this works short of seeking customer services advice each time so adding to the delay?

In general terms, by being given information at the time.

 

[styles]

In this case A was Norwich, B was Nottingham, C was Derby. Notts to Derby can be on services by EMR or CC. I didn't give details as I didn't think it mattered and have faced this quandary before with different two-legged journeys, so it was a general enquiry thinking (perhaps wrongly) that there was a general rule.

There are some general rules in bits of legislation or the passenger contract with the retailer or the Conditions of Travel.

How well staff on the ground are made aware of legal obligations is a whole other story though, as I'm sure you've experienced.

There's a chance it may improve under Great British Railways as there should be less need to pass the buck to other parties if they're all run by the state, but we still have open access operators like Lumo and the government is hardly known for its competence when it comes to rail, so I wouldn't hold your breath.

If the actual stations do make such a difference to the your rights, and certain TOCs do reciprocal favours to certain other TOCs, but not others, how is Jo Public on a delayed service supposed to know how this works short of seeking customer services advice each time so adding to the delay?

They're suppose to know through effective communications at the point of sale, which is the point they initiate their contract with their supplier.

In practice it's not a requirement to communicate such passenger rights, and even if they did, it would be buried in some terms and conditions which passengers don't read if we're being honest.

The net result is that most staff don't know the full rules, nor do passengers, so operators tell passengers what to do and the passengers go along with it. A very tiny minority of knowledgeable rail travellers know their rights and persist with complaints or requests/demands for compensation and they succeed, while 'Jo Bloggs' gets fobbed off and leaves with a distained view of travelling by train in the UK, most likely to just drive next time.

 

[Roy1234]

The net result is that most staff don't know the full rules, nor do passengers, so operators tell passengers what to do and the passengers go along with it. A very tiny minority of knowledgeable rail travellers know their rights and persist with complaints or requests/demands for compensation and they succeed, while 'Jo Bloggs' gets fobbed off and leaves with a distained view of travelling by train in the UK, most likely to just drive next time.

@styles I think you sum the situation up very well. If it's complex to the railway insiders who populate this forum, imagine everyone else? When Jo Public arrives late from the first leg of his journey on platform 11, with suitcases & restless kids, he should head off to platform 1 where customer services live, seek advice (often they'll need a manager, I find) and if they get a 'yes' then politely ask them to put it in writing as someone else suggested here, for protection. Which might well cause another pause/conflab behind the counter. Probably quicker to just wait for the next service from that operator.

When I took this journey, I unthinkingly used the next Cross Country service not EMR for the second leg, and only during that run did it cross my mind I might have broken the rules, despite negotiating the railways daily. So me & family might have been fined etc if revenue protection officers had boarded, and did not feel sympathetic.

Great British Railways, whenever that finally arrives, seems our only hope of fixing this fragmented mess.

 

[Starmill]

@styles I think you sum the situation up very well. If it's complex to the railway insiders who populate this forum, imagine everyone else? When Jo Public arrives late from the first leg of his journey on platform 11, with suitcases & restless kids, he should head off to platform 1 where customer services live, seek advice (often they'll need a manager, I find) and if they get a 'yes' then politely ask them to put it in writing as someone else suggested here, for protection. Which might well cause another pause/conflab behind the counter. Probably quicker to just wait for the next service from that operator.

When I took this journey, I unthinkingly used the next Cross Country service not EMR for the second leg, and only during that run did it cross my mind I might have broken the rules, despite negotiating the railways daily. So me & family might have been fined etc if revenue protection officers had boarded, and did not feel sympathetic.

Great British Railways, whenever that finally arrives, seems our only hope of fixing this fragmented mess.

They could have asked you to purchase new tickets at full fare, yes, and if that were the case, it'd have been almost impossible to refuse. On some trains (not in this case) they could have asked you to pay a Penalty Fare, and again, likely you would need to go along with that at the time. It is very unlikely that it would go beyond this, although, of course, not a certainty. The next step would be to threaten prosecution. Of course, all this confusion about the sanctions available is only part of the malaise you describe. Again many staff have a fairly loose grasp of the actual rules for this, and go along with the custom and practice as done by their colleagues and local management, not by what the law actually says.

 

[Roy1234]

They could have asked you to purchase new tickets at full fare, yes, and if that were the case, it'd have been almost impossible to refuse. On some trains (not in this case) they could have asked you to pay a Penalty Fare, and again, likely you would need to go along with that at the time. It is very unlikely that it would go beyond this, although, of course, not a certainty. The next step would be to threaten prosecution. Of course, all this confusion about the sanctions available is only part of the malaise you describe. Again many staff have a fairly loose grasp of the actual rules for this, and go along with the custom and practice as done by their colleagues and local management, not by what the law actually says.

Yes an overall confusing picture, what a shame such costly train travel (compared to my European friends) has left the passenger on the back foot like this. Out of interest, why would a Penalty fare not be applicable in this case if I was judged wrong to have travelled?

 

[Watershed]

Yes an overall confusing picture, what a shame such costly train travel (compared to my European friends) has left the passenger on the back foot like this. Out of interest, why would a Penalty fare not be applicable in this case if I was judged wrong to have travelled?

CrossCountry aren't a Penalty Fares operator. Their guards and RPIs only have the choice between selling a tickets, or taking a report for possible prosecution.

 

[Roy1234]

CrossCountry aren't a Penalty Fares operator. Their guards and RPIs only have the choice between selling a tickets, or taking a report for possible prosecution.

Well that's very interesting, and explains why the daily fare dodging I see on Cross Country trains results in just a ticket sale, nothing more. But I have to ask, why don't they issue Penalty Fares?

 

[Starmill]

Well that's very interesting, and explains why the daily fare dodging I see on Cross Country trains results in just a ticket sale, nothing more. But I have to ask, why don't they issue Penalty Fares?

Their name doesn't appear on any Penalty Fare signs, so in the event that any Penalty Fares were issued, they'd be unlawful by definition before any other questions could arise. They didn't apply under the old statutory regime to issue Penalty Fares, so they don't have their name on any signage. The new regime is not quite the same, in theory another operator could issue Penalty Fares to people using XC services in some circumstances, but only if all of the other conditions were met, including compliant signage. Other operators are in the same position, at least in respect of stations in England, including LNER, and Avanti West Coast. A very slightly different statutory regime applies in Wales, a very different one in Northern Ireland, and none in Scotland.

 

[yorkie]

I was advised this question might best be answered here:

I buy an advanced ticket from station A to station C, meaning only valid on the specified/timed services. This involves changing at station B. But the first leg of the journey, A to B, meets delays en route. As a result, I arrive at B too late to catch the specified B to C train.

I'm entitled, I believe, to catch the next available train, the delay having not been my fault. However both legs of my journey are with the same operator, with the word 'Only' after that operator's name.

The next available train from B to C is with a different train operator. If I catch that train, is my ticket still valid, or should I await the next available train from my ticket's specified operator?

In this case A was Norwich, B was Nottingham, C was Derby. Notts to Derby can be on services by EMR or CC. I didn't give details as I didn't think it mattered and have faced this quandary before with different two-legged journeys, so it was a general enquiry thinking (perhaps wrongly) that there was a general rule. If the actual stations do make such a difference to the your rights, and certain TOCs do reciprocal favours to certain other TOCs, but not others, how is Jo Public on a delayed service supposed to know how this works short of seeking customer services advice each time so adding to the delay?

Sorry, I don't do algebra (even if a 'key' is later provided) and digesting paragraphs without the information being easily shown in list format isn't always easy for everyone.

When people are seeking advice regarding itineraries, delay claims, etc, it is a good idea to list the planned itinerary in list format.

After stating the overall journey, the actual itinerary (including all relevant train times) should be listed in an easy-to-read format, with notes regarding which trains were delayed/cancelled.

Furthermore, a list of the actual ticket(s) used/held is also helpful.

Like this, please:

Hey, I travelled yesterday on a journey involving a somewhat strange collection of tickets, and I’m wondering what my delay repay entitlements are.

Journey from Deal to Cambridge
Intended itinerary:
19:26 Deal to St. Pancras arriving 20:54
21:39 King’s Cross to Cambridge arriving 22:31

Actual itinerary:
19:26 service was delayed, arriving at St. Pancras at 21:34
22:09 King’s Cross to Cambridge, actual arrival 23:07

Tickets used to complete journey:
Super off peak day travelcard, Cambridge to London Zones 1-6 (return portion)
Super off peak day return, London Terminals to Dover Priory any permitted (return portion)
Off peak day return, Deal to Dover Priory (outbound portion)

This will help us to help you; thanks