Bus Driver Strikes - Lancashire and Greater Manchester

[M60lad]

Regarding the current Industrial Action looks like Strike Action is ramping up in the next couple of weeks looking at the dates, are we any nearer a solution to the dispute and are meetings still happening with the union to find a solution?

Apparently not to sure what the offer is but it looks like the dispute over in Lancashire might be being settled as Stagecoach have put a revised offer on the table which is being balloted on, question is why can't a similar offer be made over here?

 

[Mollman]

Regarding the current Industrial Action looks like Strike Action is ramping up in the next couple of weeks looking at the dates, are we any nearer a solution to the dispute and are meetings still happening with the union to find a solution?

Apparently not to sure what the offer is but it looks like the dispute over in Lancashire might be being settled as Stagecoach have put a revised offer on the table which is being balloted on, question is why can't a similar offer be made over here?

At the minute we don't know what that offer is and how different it is to earlier offers. At Stagecoach North East it was quite a small change that got the deal through.

We don't know what has been going on in Manchester, revised offers might have been made but rejected by the union or the operators feel that they can't afford to come back with a higher offer without threatening the viability of it. If it is unaffordable this year then what happens next year when pay talks will likely happen again?

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

My local NHS clinic say that have had six cancelled clinic appointments next Tuesday by elderly patients who need two buses to travel to that particular clinic and two of which told the clinic the taxi fare quoted to them was much more than normal.

 

[mayneway]

Stagecoach and First have suspended the strikes for this week while a pay deal is put out to vote, Metroline will decide tomorrow whether to vote on their latest offer.

 

[geoffk]

As a former GMPTE employee, I'm trying to keep up with the industrial dispute from distant Devon (I still have contacts in the Rochdale area). Nearly everyone on Social media is putting the blame on Andy Burnham. Is it the case that the affected operators have put in unrealistically low bids to get the work? Seeing that fares and service levels are set by TfGM, what are the remedies the operators have? Am I right in thinking that it's TfGM rather than the operators which takes the revenue risk?

 

[mangad]

As a former GMPTE employee, I'm trying to keep up with the industrial dispute from distant Devon (I still have contacts in the Rochdale area). Nearly everyone on Social media is putting the blame on Andy Burnham. Is it the case that the affected operators have put in unrealistically low bids to get the work? Seeing that fares and service levels are set by TfGM, what are the remedies the operators have? Am I right in thinking that it's TfGM rather than the operators which takes the revenue risk?

TfGM take the fare revenue so all the operators "only" need to focus on running the specified services. Did they put in unrealistically low bids? Well I would assume we will never know unless one of the operators throws in the towel!

I think there's an inevitability with a system like this that the Mayor (whoever they are, and of whatever political hue they are) is going to get some flack because the general public see the mayor as the figurehead of the system, even if ultimately they aren't responsible for the running of vehicles. Being realistic, most people don't know or care that buses are run by private companies. The bus is Bee Network branded, and Bee Network's a Mayor thing, ergo it's the Mayor's fault. Sadiq Khan has the same problem in London.

That said, there's a few very noisy people on social media and the comments on the Manchester Evening News, who will never, ever, ever be happy with Burnham and flood the place with their negative views. Burnham could solve all known wars in the world tomorrow, usher in a new era of prosperity with everyone on Earth benefiting massively, and they'd still tell you he's appalling and absolutely useless.

 

[mayneway]

As a former GMPTE employee, I'm trying to keep up with the industrial dispute from distant Devon (I still have contacts in the Rochdale area). Nearly everyone on Social media is putting the blame on Andy Burnham. Is it the case that the affected operators have put in unrealistically low bids to get the work? Seeing that fares and service levels are set by TfGM, what are the remedies the operators have? Am I right in thinking that it's TfGM rather than the operators which takes the revenue risk?

From a drivers point of view Burnham takes a lot of the blame because he made unrealistic promises during the last strike at Queens road several years ago.
At the time he promised all operators would have to be part of the ‘good employee’ scheme to better terms and conditions.
Drivers would see better pay with level hourly rates across all areas and depots.
All operators would use the same pension provider so that drivers wouldn’t potentially have 2/3 different pensions as depots changed from one company to another.
Agency drivers would be quickly phased out - they are still being used now!
None of the above happened!

The public see Burnham as the face of the network but as a driver effected by the strikes I personally think Burnham should stay silent on the matter!

 

[Tetchytyke]

The public see Burnham as the face of the network but as a driver effected by the strikes I personally think Burnham should stay silent on the matter!

That's a case of being damned either way. If Burnham was silent then everyone would be slagging him off for not getting involved to try and solve the issue.

At the time he promised all operators would have to be part of the ‘good employee’ scheme to better terms and conditions.
Drivers would see better pay with level hourly rates across all areas and depots.
All operators would use the same pension provider so that drivers wouldn’t potentially have 2/3 different pensions as depots changed from one company to another.
Agency drivers would be quickly phased out - they are still being used now!
None of the above happened!

But TfGM have made it so that drivers don't have to start at the bottom of the pay scale if they change employers.

Andy Burnham unveils scheme to make driving buses a 'proper career'

The new Licence for Greater Manchester ensures experienced drivers don't go on starter pay when they move bus companies

www.manchestereveningnews.co.uk

Stephen Rhodes, Director of Bus at TfGM, said: “This scheme is another example of the Bee Network working as one system, with drivers’ experience and length of service respected if they move between operators, meaning they no longer having to start on the lowest pay.

That's probably about as far as they can take it whilst acting within the law.

I don't see how TfGM can very easily mandate equality of pay across the depots as that would be anti-competitive. They can perhaps mandate a minimum hourly rate for drivers in any contract tender, but I don't see how they could otherwise lawfully mandate any sort of equality. The pay is to be agreed between the operator and the staff.

TfGM have made it easier for drivers to move operators for better pay and, one would hope, that will incentivise operators to align their pay.

 

[mayneway]

That's a case of being damned either way. If Burnham was silent then everyone would be slagging him off for not getting involved to try and solve the issue.


But TfGM have made it so that drivers don't have to start at the bottom of the pay scale if they change employers.

Andy Burnham unveils scheme to make driving buses a 'proper career'

The new Licence for Greater Manchester ensures experienced drivers don't go on starter pay when they move bus companies

www.manchestereveningnews.co.uk

That's probably about as far as they can take it whilst acting within the law.

I don't see how TfGM can very easily mandate equality of pay across the depots as that would be anti-competitive. They can perhaps mandate a minimum hourly rate for drivers in any contract tender, but I don't see how they could otherwise lawfully mandate any sort of equality. The pay is to be agreed between the operator and the staff.

TfGM have made it easier for drivers to move operators for better pay and, one would hope, that will incentivise operators to align their pay.

Ironically I’ve in the last few months moved from one extremely bad operator to a better one, it wasn’t mentioned to me about the driver passport until I was sat at the induction on my first day and was told another driver had transferred over using the ‘passport’ and would retain his service etc.

What is often spoken about by TFGM to the media very rarely gets passed back to the drivers. We are always in the dark.

 

[Tetchytyke]

What is often spoken about by TFGM to the media very rarely gets passed back to the drivers. We are always in the dark.

Doesn't surprise me in the slightest. Your old operator won't want to highlight the passport and lose their staff; your new operator won't want to highlight the passport and have to pay you more money.

I do hope you got your service recognised?

I'm not sure the unions would really like pay to be equalised across the county, though, as it removes an important bargaining chip from them. If the minimum and maximum hourly rates are set in the tender then there's not much negotiation to be had.

 

[mayneway]

Doesn't surprise me in the slightest. Your old operator won't want to highlight the passport and lose their staff; your new operator won't want to highlight the passport and have to pay you more money.

I do hope you got your service recognised?

I'm not sure the unions would really like pay to be equalised across the county, though, as it removes an important bargaining chip from them. If the minimum and maximum hourly rates are set in the tender then there's not much negotiation to be had.

I didn’t get my service recognised as the depot I was at seemingly refuses all transfers anyway forcing drivers to leave and apply else where.
Service counts for nothing anyway now sadly.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Stagecoach and First have suspended the strikes for this week while a pay deal is put out to vote, Metroline will decide tomorrow whether to vote on their latest offer.

When will the Metroline decision be announced?

 

[mangad]

When will the Metroline decision be announced?

It's already announced. They're striking.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

It's already announced. They're striking.

I am somewhat out of touch with matters since being discharged from Wythenshawe Hospital. I wonder how many appointments at medical establishments will be cancelled by people without cars who need two buses to travel from home. From Heald Green (The Griffin) to Wythenshawe Hospital where two buses are needed, both the 368 and the 101 are run by Metroline.

 

[mayneway]

When will the Metroline decision be announced?

An offer was put on the table today on the condition the strike was called off. Union reps felt it important to ballot members on the offer before calling off the strike so it’s stalemate.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

An offer was put on the table today on the condition the strike was called off. Union reps felt it important to ballot members on the offer before calling off the strike so it’s stalemate.

Surely it is reps from the same trade union at both Stagecoach Manchester and at First Manchester who took a different course of action.

 

[CN12 AWU]

Regarding the current Industrial Action looks like Strike Action is ramping up in the next couple of weeks looking at the dates, are we any nearer a solution to the dispute and are meetings still happening with the union to find a solution?

Apparently not to sure what the offer is but it looks like the dispute over in Lancashire might be being settled as Stagecoach have put a revised offer on the table which is being balloted on, question is why can't a similar offer be made over here?

If this referee to Stagecoach Preston and Chorley strike I believe the last day of voting is today and be announced later if the ballot has been accepted or if there going to strike

 

[M60lad]

Regarding the strikes being called off, I've heard mixed reactions to this already and Thursday could be interesting to be honest as that's when drivers are being balloted from what I can gather some drivers are for the new 2 year pay offer while other drivers are definitely not for it so the vote could go either way.

From what I can gather it is a better or slightly better offer than what was being offered previously hence why this time its gone to vote and not been walked away from like previous offers.

Apparently Metroline were offered the same offer but have said no to it straight away for some reason, not to sure what they are actually after offer wise to be honest.

 

[mayneway]

Surely it is reps from the same trade union at both Stagecoach Manchester and at First Manchester who took a different course of action.

Reps from stagecoach and First met on Sunday afternoon to reach a compromise but for whatever reason Metroline reps couldn’t meet until Monday and it was felt with less than 24 hours notice it wasn’t practical to call off the strike.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 30 Sep 2025 ==

Regarding the strikes being called off, I've heard mixed reactions to this already and Thursday could be interesting to be honest as that's when drivers are being balloted from what I can gather some drivers are for the new 2 year pay offer while other drivers are definitely not for it so the vote could go either way.

From what I can gather it is a better or slightly better offer than what was being offered previously hence why this time its gone to vote and not been walked away from like previous offers.

Apparently Metroline were offered the same offer but have said no to it straight away for some reason, not to sure what they are actually after offer wise to be honest.

It’s gone to ballot but I believe the union is recommending the deal is rejected.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

The public see Burnham as the face of the network but as a driver effected by the strikes I personally think Burnham should stay silent on the matter!

To be honest, Burnham has always sought to be a mayoral person of note who sees the Bee Network as his personal gift to Greater Manchester and encourages the hoi polloi to believe in that.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 1 Oct 2025 ==

TfGM take the fare revenue so all the operators "only" need to focus on running the specified services. Did they put in unrealistically low bids? Well I would assume we will never know unless one of the operators throws in the towel!

So such is the current seven-day accumulative strike by the Metroline "new boys to the North" that it is TfGM who will be the financial fare revenue losers each day a strike day occurs.

 

[Cesarcollie]

To be honest, Burnham has always sought to be a mayoral person of note who sees the Bee Network as his personal gift to Greater Manchester and encourages the hoi polloi to believe in that.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 1 Oct 2025 ==


So such is the current seven-day accumulative strike by the Metroline "new boys to the North" that it is TfGM who will be the financial fare revenue losers each day a strike day occurs.

Well yes. But they’ll be saving their contract payments to Metroline, and (possibly) receiving penalties too. So financially better off!

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

I recall someone telling me at the start of this franchising process that unforeseen third-party events such as Covid would be an allowed matter that would obviate the terms of the franchise between the operator and TfGM.

If that is true, do strikes called by trades union as a third party fall under that category?

 

[mangad]

I recall someone telling me at the start of this franchising process that unforeseen third-party events such as Covid would be an allowed matter that would obviate the terms of the franchise between the operator and TfGM.

If that is true, do strikes called by trades union as a third party fall under that category?

Highly unlikely. Those kinds of clauses are about things outside of normal control of. contracted party. Earthquakes, storms, global pandemics, that sort of things. The potential for strike is a pretty normal thing that a business needs to handle especially if you've a heavily unionised workforce. And realistically businesses have ways to prevent strikes. They may just not like them!

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

The potential for strike is a pretty normal thing that a business needs to handle especially if you've a heavily unionised workforce. And realistically businesses have ways to prevent strikes. They may just not like them!

Agreed, but in the case of the Bee Network, there are three, not the usual two parties involved, with TfGM being the party now collecting the fares revenue extra to the normal company and trades union scenario. What do you suggest, that being the case, do TfGM do in a situation now entailing or do they follow the lead set by Pontius Pilate and "wash their hands of the matter".?

 

[mangad]

Agreed, but in the case of the Bee Network, there are three, not the usual two parties involved, with TfGM being the party now collecting the fares revenue extra to the normal company and trades union scenario. What do you suggest, that being the case, do TfGM do in a situation now entailing or do they follow the lead set by Pontius Pilate and "wash their hands of the matter".?

There's basically two things going on in any strike on the Bee Network operators:

1. a dispute between the employees of the service provider, and the service provider. I.e. the drivers and bus companies.
2. a failure by the service provider to deliver what they are contracted to do, to Transport for Greater Manchester.

The two are linked, but separate. The drivers are in dispute with their employer. The bus company isn't delivering the service they promised to do.

This is not a unique situation by any means. It happens all the time. In many offices the facilities management staff will be employed by a third party. Hospital cleaners are regularly employed by a third party. Ralway companies, bus services in London, and so on. Disputes happen. You'll find news stories of hospital cleaners going on strike quite easily as there have been cases in the last year or two.

What I'd expect TfGM to do in this case is what any party who awards a contract that isn't being delivered to do. Put pressure on the company they have a contract to to restore normal services, and to apply the penalties for failure to deliver a service, as laid out under the contract. If things got really bad, it may well be that TfGM would take a pragmatic decision to get more involved with the negotiations - to try and act as an arbitratory between the two. But they're under no compulsion to do so, and they wouldn't be able to force employees or employer to accept anything.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

So effectively, TfGM are in a "win-win" situation.

 

[mattb7tl]

So effectively, TfGM are in a "win-win" situation.

It simply is not their responsibility.

If you were to contract a company to build an extension on your home, the company names their own price, and a couple months down the line the workers stop working and demand better wages from the company, it is not your responsibility to resolve either the cost or the dispute. It is the job of the company you paid to deliver both quality and reliability to prevent issues like this from occurring.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

It simply is not their responsibility.

If you were to contract a company to build an extension on your home, the company names their own price, and a couple months down the line the workers stop working and demand better wages from the company, it is not your responsibility to resolve either the cost or the dispute. It is the job of the company you paid to deliver both quality and reliability to prevent issues like this from occurring.

Not a good comparison to my way of thinking. What appears to be the case is that the bus operators are only there to provide the bus service, whereas TfGM take the fares revenue. Normally in industrial disputes, it is the company that is targetted by the trades union, to cause loss of finance from trading, whereas in this TfGM instance, the trades unions take a different view of that matter. As others have said, if the bus operators cannot run bus services as the trades union have called strike action, they can be subjected to financial strictures by TfGM who can make replacement lost fares revenue by applying financial strictures to the bus operators for not running bus services instead.

 

[Mollman]

So effectively, TfGM are in a "win-win" situation.

Not really, they have done their best to eradication operator names so everything is Bee Network. That means if the bus doesn't run many people will link it to the Bee Network not to Metroline as they might not even be aware their bus service is operated by Metroline (some will still think it is run by Stagecoach!)

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Not really, they have done their best to eradication operator names so everything is Bee Network. That means if the bus doesn't run many people will link it to the Bee Network not to Metroline as they might not even be aware their bus service is operated by Metroline (some will still think it is run by Stagecoach!)

Just been on the TfGM website which has a tiny footnote on the information page stating further strikes are planned for Friday 10th October and Saturday 11th October and the comment "We will continue to do everything to minimise disruption to your journey"

Having been on the hard end of seven Metroline strike days so far, what had TfGM done to minimise the stated disruption to my planned journeys to visit my wife's grave, two NHS clinic appointments and one hospital appointment which were all cancelled by me as walking in the fourth week after suffering a closed fracture of the pubis rama bone in my pelvis caused by a fall on my driveway is something that the hospital advised against in the 4-6 weeks recovery period whilst I was on ward A9 at Wythenshawe Hospital for eight days after the fall.

Strike days league table to date
7 ... Metroline
4 ... Stagecoach Manchester
4 ... First Manchester