Dispute a valid Adult Network ticket - Birmingham to Coventry

[darknight18]

Hi,

I received a fine while travelling from Birmingham new street to Coventry: I purchased a valid Adult network ticket from the bus (includes bus- train - tram journeys within the West Midlands). The officer’s reason for the fine was that the ticket had an small asterisk that said:

*16-18 required a valid photocard

I have no idea why the ticket said this but when I asked at the station I was told this is just general information.

I explained to the officer that this is an Adult ticket and had no discounts applied. They insisted I show a photocard or get a fine.

I disputed the fine but was still rejected. I’m confused as this is valid and have asked at the ticket office at new street and was confirmed by the officer that it is a valid ticket.

Appreciate any advice or help.

Thanks

 

[John R]

You may wish to delete the letter and reload it with your name and address hidden.

 

[cornishjohn]

This appears quite preposterous. I'm guessing a zones 1-5 nNetwork ticket, which is £11 for a grown up. 16-18 tickets are definitely cheaper.

Can you post your penatlty fares notice? (Again, identification removed). What evidence did you add to your appeal to show that was the right fare?

Good luck

(P.S. what does "SAND" indicate please?)

 

[darknight18]

Yes it’s a Zone 1-5 ticket which is valid up to Coventry. It is indeed 11£ which I buy every day to work. See the penalty date notice attached.

I didn’t attach any other evidence in my appeal as thought this was a straight forward process. It is the correct ticket, I’m not sure what evidence I can submit to support this?

I feel like at this point I should not appeal further and let them take it to court?

 

[methecooldude]

(P.S. what does "SAND" indicate please?)

I'm not sure, but I would assume it's a word selected at random to try and prevent fraudulent tickets. So even if one got a roll of the paper, and printed a fake, without the word of the day/time (or both), it would be obvious

 

[gray1404]

The inspector has not read the ticket correctly. I have checked online and for ticket type held £11.00 is the price for an adult. There is not adult or £11.00 discounted option for a 16 to 18 year old.

My reading of the ticket is that the footnote is saying that if the traveller is travelling on an age restricted ticket they must present a photo card. Not that that must produce one.

It would be helpful if that information is only printers when a discounted ticket issued but nevertheless that does not affect the validity of the ticket the OP held.

 

[SCDR_WMR]

(P.S. what does "SAND" indicate please?)

It's simply a 4 letter code added to the bus ticket. Has no meaning in regards to validity.

The *16-18 applies to child tickets, allowing them to be valid up to 18 years as long as a photocard is provided - or that's what it says on the outside of every West Mids National Express bus!

 

[darknight18]

The inspector has not read the ticket correctly. I have checked online and for ticket type held £11.00 is the price for an adult. There is not adult or £11.00 discounted option for a 16 to 18 year old.

My reading of the ticket is that the footnote is saying that if the traveller is travelling on an age restricted ticket they must present a photo card. Not that that must produce one.

It would be helpful if that information is only printers when a discounted ticket issued but nevertheless that does not affect the validity of the ticket the OP held.

Exactly this!! I’m fuming for having to go through this process even after having explained this to the ticket officer. His answer was straight and blunt, Just appeal it.

 

[Mcr Warrior]

£11.00 is the Adult price for a One day nNetwork zones 1-5 ticket.

£6.00 is the price for an 18s and under network daytripper. Only then must the holder have an accompanying West Midlands 16-18 card.

Unlimited travel on all National Express buses and any other bus operator that is part of the nBus scheme, within the nBus zone, the West Midlands Metro tram zones 1-4, and train travel within zones 1-5 (which includes Birmingham New Street and Coventry).

Travel for 1 day. Ticket appears perfectly valid and should not, in my opinion, have been penalty-fared. Simply not good enough.

More here... https://nxbus.co.uk/west-midlands/tickets-prices/single-trips-day-tickets

 

[gray1404]

Exactly this!! I’m fuming for having to go through this process even after having explained this to the ticket officer. His answer was straight and blunt, Just appeal it.

We need to help the OP lodge a second appeal. However we see a lot more success at the third appeal.

After they have done this we can help them make a complaint to West Midlands Trains.

 

[Fawkes Cat]

Can you post your penatlty fares notice? (Again, identification removed). What evidence did you add to your appeal to show that was the right fare?

It would also be helpful if you could show us exactly what you said in your first appeal: I think it would help us to know if you (quite understandably) didn't say much as the point was obvious, or whether the appeals service have ignored valid points even when they were spelt out.

 

[30907]

You need to respond quickly as you only have 14 days.

Keep it brief, eg.

The ground for issuing the PF is given as "no supporting document."

The ticket (attached) is an Adult ticket. There is no requirement for a supporting document.

The ticket was therefore valid for travel.

Please confirm that the PF is cancelled.

 

[Starmill]

It's simply a 4 letter code added to the bus ticket. Has no meaning in regards to validity.

The *16-18 applies to child tickets, allowing them to be valid up to 18 years as long as a photocard is provided - or that's what it says on the outside of every West Mids National Express bus!

I believe the code word just helps to assist with quick inspection too. If the inspector knows what today's word is, and sees the word is correct, it demonstrates that the ticket was indeed issued today. I think it used to appear in app as well.

 

[gray1404]

The Penalty Fare has been issued incorrectly. It is on the basis of a fare element of £8.80 between Birmingham and Coventry. This is the cost of a First Class Anytime Day Single valid on Avanti Only.

The OP was traveling in Standard Class on West Midlands Trains. The cost of an Anytime Day Single for this is £6.10

Also at what point in the journey where you asked for your ticket? Between what stations?

The grounds information is also incorrect. It states no supporting documentation. However there was no supporting documentation required for the valid ticket held.

You have not uploaded the entire notice though. Could you please do this as there is other information we wish to check for.

So to recap for your second appeal:

You need to appeal on the basis that the Penalty Fare was not issued on accordance with the regulations. (Use those words) The reasons for that are as follows:

1. A valid ticket was held
2. The grounds reason is incorrect
3. The PF is made up of the incorrect fare

 

[Watershed]

Aside from the issue of your ticket actually being valid (without needing to show 'supporting documentation') the Penalty Fare has also been issued for the wrong amount. They have issued it for £100 plus an £8.80 fare which appears to be the first class fare - yet the PF only authorises standard class travel.

They are supposed to charge the applicable adult single fare for the class of travel, which in this case would be the Anytime Day Single costing £6.10.

That's assuming you used a CrossCountry or West Midlands Trains (aka London Northwestern Railway) train. If you used an Avanti train then Penalty Fares aren't applicable at all, as hey are not a Penalty Fare operator. That would be a further ground for appeal.

 

[darknight18]

It would also be helpful if you could show us exactly what you said in your first appeal: I think it would help us to know if you (quite understandably) didn't say much as the point was obvious, or whether the appeals service have ignored valid points even when they were spelt out.

I don’t have the exact wording of the appeal. I’ve signed in to the appeal service and there was no record of my appeal unfortunately, only the outcome which I have posted above.

But my wording from what I remember was very simple and straightforward. Do you know how I can access it if even possible?

 

[John R]

You should see an edit button if you click on the three dots at the foot of your message. If not, report the post to the moderators, ask them to delete the letter and then reupload a redacted version on a new post if easier.

 

[Fawkes Cat]

I don’t have the exact wording of the appeal. I’ve signed in to the appeal service and there was no record of my appeal unfortunately, only the outcome which I have posted above.

But my wording from what I remember was very simple and straightforward. Do you know how I can access it if even possible?

No worries. Can you remember what you wrote? That will give us some idea.

 

[darknight18]

No worries. Can you remember what you wrote? That will give us some idea.

Something along the lines of: I would like to appeal the PF as the incompetent ticket officer could not recognise that I have a valid Adult network ticket (as attached) for the trip between Birmingham New Street and Coventry.

I made no mention of the 16-18 photocard as did not think it was necessary.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 27 Sep 2025 ==

The Penalty Fare has been issued incorrectly. It is on the basis of a fare element of £8.80 between Birmingham and Coventry. This is the cost of a First Class Anytime Day Single valid on Avanti Only.

The OP was traveling in Standard Class on West Midlands Trains. The cost of an Anytime Day Single for this is £6.10

Also at what point in the journey where you asked for your ticket? Between what stations?

The grounds information is also incorrect. It states no supporting documentation. However there was no supporting documentation required for the valid ticket held.

You have not uploaded the entire notice though. Could you please do this as there is other information we wish to check for.

So to recap for your second appeal:

You need to appeal on the basis that the Penalty Fare was not issued on accordance with the regulations. (Use those words) The reasons for that are as follows:

1. A valid ticket was held
2. The grounds reason is incorrect
3. The PF is made up of the incorrect fare

Thanks for this, I will re upload the entire notice when I can.

I was asked for the ticket between Birmingham International and Coventry station. I was fined as I got off at Coventry.

 

[Snow1964]

This is really unfortunate for the Op as having to waste time and money sorting 2 sets of incompence.

1) An Inspector who rejected a valid ticket.
2) An appeals person who clearly didn't know what a valid ticket was

Once this is finally sorted (and on form so far, the second appeal might also fail), I suggest asking West Midlands Trains customer service for hefty compensation due to multiple poor staff causing time and money to be wasted by Op.

In a honest world, rather than covering up employees, If anyone reading this works for the train operator and is embarrassed, they should be whistleblowing the inspector whose number is on the document. And customer services should follow up with the line managers to suggest some training of both appeals Dept and Inspectors

 

[darknight18]

Re attaching the documents with redacted info. I will post the entire PF notice when I can.

Thank you all for the help!!

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 27 Sep 2025 ==

Re attaching the documents with redacted info. I will post the entire PF notice when I can.

Thank you all for the help!!

Here is the full notice FYI.

 

[Bikeman78]

Re attaching the documents with redacted info. I will post the entire PF notice when I can.

Thank you all for the help!!

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 27 Sep 2025 ==


Here is the full notice FYI.

Wow. A whole page of waffle but no explanation as to why the appeal was declined.

 

[darknight18]

Wow. A whole page of waffle but no explanation as to why the appeal was declined.

I feel like it was just a generic/automated response.

 

[John R]

"Dear Appeals person short of a brain cell

I refer to your rejection of my appeal, reference X, and wish to make a second appeal.

The ticket I had is an Adult nNetwork ticket, zones 1 to 5 priced at £11, which does not require a photocard. The wording on the ticket "16-18 years old Must hold a valid 16-18 photocard is therefore not relevant, and there is no requirement for Adults to hold a photocard.

I therefore ask that you allow my appeal.

Yours frustratedly

Bill Bloggs"

I would ignore the fact that the PF was issued for the incorrect amount, as I think it is important that they accept that the ticket was valid, not that there was a procedural mistake in its issue.

 

[3rd rail land]

You need to respond quickly as you only have 14 days.

Keep it brief, eg.

The ground for issuing the PF is given as "no supporting document."

The ticket (attached) is an Adult ticket. There is no requirement for a supporting document.

The ticket was therefore valid for travel.

Please confirm that the PF is cancelled.

This is what you need to send as the next appeal. Keep it short and to the point. Once they finally accept your appeal you should raise a complaint and also request compensation for the time and hassle this has cost you.

"Dear Appeals person short of a brain cell

I refer to your rejection of my appeal, reference X, and wish to make a second appeal.

The ticket I had is an Adult nNetwork ticket, zones 1 to 5 priced at £11, which does not require a photocard. The wording on the ticket "16-18 years old Must hold a valid 16-18 photocard is therefore not relevant, and there is no requirement for Adults to hold a photocard.

I therefore ask that you allow my appeal.

Yours frustratedly

Bill Bloggs"

I would ignore the fact that the PF was issued for the incorrect amount, as I think it is important that they accept that the ticket was valid, not that there was a procedural mistake in its issue.

Personally I would love to send in an appeal like this in such a situation however I think keeping it more professional such as the above response I have quoted is the response that is more likely to get the desired outcome. Once It comes time to raise a complaint would be when I would let out all my frustrations.

 

[John R]

This is what you need to send as the next appeal. Keep it short and to the point. Once they finally accept your appeal you should raise a complaint and also request compensation for the time and hassle this has cost you.


Personally I would love to send in an appeal like this in such a situation however I think keeping it more professional such as the above response I have quoted is the response that is more likely to get the desired outcome. Once It comes time to raise a complaint would be when I would let out all my frustrations.

It was somewhat tongue in cheek, but apart from addressing it appropriately and similarly closing it appropriately, I think the text in between is very clear, simple and unambiguous.

 

[Starmill]

I agree with the suggestion above to present another appeal in simple terms. A valid ticket was shown when asked. No supporting documents were needed for the ticket which was held because it was a full fare adult ticket. Because a valid ticket for the journey being made was shown, no penalty fare would be lawful. You can include your evidence of the ticket again.

 

[LYradial]

Would it be usefull to emphasise that tfwm rail validity map clearly confirms its validity to Coventry, might avoid going to a third appeal

 

[gray1404]

Another ground for appeal then. I am assuming you were on the 0906 service from Birmingham New Street. I see the Penalty Fare was issued at 0917. At that point the train was departing Birmingham International. However as it takes time to issue a penalty fare and take details I am guessing you were asked for your ticket on departure from Birmingham New Street and the next station at which the train was due to call was indeed Birmingham International.

Putting aside the fact the inspector rejected a totally valid ticket and issued it for the wrong fare, the customer is to be given the opportunity for the penalty fare to be issued for the lowest amount. The Anytime Single from Birmingham New Street to Birmingham International is £5.00. If indeed you were asked for your ticket once the train had departed Birmingham International (which I highly doubt a PF could be issued so fast) then the next station the train was due to call at was Hampton in Arden. The fare from Birmingham New Street to there is £5.40

Did the Inspector by default issue the Penalty Fare to Coventry or were you given the option of it being issued to one of the above?

 

[Fawkes Cat]

Another ground for appeal then. I am assuming you were on the 0906 service from Birmingham New Street. I see the Penalty Fare was issued at 0917. At that point the train was departing Birmingham International. However as it takes time to issue a penalty fare and take details I am guessing you were asked for your ticket on departure from Birmingham New Street and the next station at which the train was due to call was indeed Birmingham International.

Putting aside the fact the inspector rejected a totally valid ticket and issued it for the wrong fare, the customer is to be given the opportunity for the penalty fare to be issued for the lowest amount. The Anytime Single from Birmingham New Street to Birmingham International is £5.00. If indeed you were asked for your ticket once the train had departed Birmingham International (which I highly doubt a PF could be issued so fast) then the next station the train was due to call at was Hampton in Arden. The fare from Birmingham New Street to there is £5.40

Did the Inspector by default issue the Penalty Fare to Coventry or were you given the option of it being issued to one of the above?

In post #19, the OP tells us

I was asked for the ticket between Birmingham International and Coventry station. I was fined as I got off at Coventry.

So we don't need to speculate over where it was issued.