Starting a journey later than a ticket's origin.

[AM9]

If travelling on a return ticket with a London Terminal interchange where the journey into London is prohibited from arriving before 10:00, but there are no restrictions on the following train out to the destination, would it be permitted to start the journey at the London origin of the second train?

e.g. if travelling from St Albans to somewhere in Kent/Sussex via (say) London Bridge, would it be permitted to start using the through outbound ticket of a return booking at London Bridge in order to travel on a train that would be impossible to catch from the first permitted train from St Albans?

I hope that the above contorted description makes sense, and would be grateful if somebody could advise me.

Thanks in anticipation of some clarification.

 

[jfollows]

It depends on the specifics of the restriction.
If the restriction is 4F and says

Not valid on trains timed to depart after 04:29 and before 09:30.

then it’s what it is … I would read this as a 09:31 departure from London Bridge is fine.
The restriction applies to the ticket and you can start your journey from London Bridge if you want.
The danger is that someone might claim that your ticket is invalid from Saint Albans, so how do you prove you only joined at London Bridge? Maybe if you scanned the ticket there?

 

[AM9]

It depends on the specifics of the restriction.
If the restriction is 4F and says

then it’s what it is … I would read this as a 09:31 departure from London Bridge is fine.
The restriction applies to the ticket and you can start your journey from London Bridge if you want.
The danger is that someone might claim that your ticket is invalid from Saint Albans, so how do you prove you only joined at London Bridge? Maybe if you scanned the ticket there?

Yes of course, the ticket would be scanned on entering through the LBG gateline, having used contactless to get to there and tapped out of a gateline.
That means that all travel on the return ticket would be valid with a Railcard. Is that OK? The intention is to get a CCST return rather than an aztec coded paper ticket.

 

[redreni]

The danger is that someone might claim that your ticket is invalid from Saint Albans, so how do you prove you only joined at London Bridge? Maybe if you scanned the ticket there?

You don't have to prove it.

If Contactless is used as far as London Bridge to defeat the morning peak restrictions on the outbound portion of the ticket, that's fine, of course, and it naturally creates evidence that would be useful if anybody did (wrongly) try to give the OP hassle for allegedly using the off-peak ticket to travel in the morning peak contrary to the restrictions.

The remedy if a passenger travels at peak times on an off-peak ticket is, in any case, an excess fare rather than anything worse. If a penalty fare or unpaid fares notice is issued, that should be quite easy to overturn even without evidence of having used Contactless. But the fact the OP would have used Contactless to travel from St Albans to London Bridge should be determinative in getting any additional amount charged refunded, should that prove necessary.

Obviously it would be necessary in this scenario to change at London Bridge in order to tap out to end the Contactless journey there.

 

[AM9]

You don't have to prove it.

If Contactless is used as far as London Bridge to defeat the morning peak restrictions on the outbound portion of the ticket, that's fine, of course, and it naturally creates evidence that would be useful if anybody did (wrongly) try to give the OP hassle for allegedly using the off-peak ticket to travel in the morning peak contrary to the restrictions.

The remedy if a passenger travels at peak times on an off-peak ticket is, in any case, an excess fare rather than anything worse. If a penalty fare or unpaid fares notice is issued, that should be quite easy to overturn even without evidence of having used Contactless. But the fact the OP would have used Contactless to travel from St Albans to London Bridge should be determinative in getting any additional amount charged refunded, should that prove necessary.

Obviously it would be necessary in this scenario to change at London Bridge in order to tap out to end the Contactless journey there.

Thanks for the reply. That's exactly what I was thinking, but there are some gateline staff out there who could construct an argument that the second train - although not restricted by peak restrictions, was expected to be lightly loaded because of the restrictions on the London-bound connecting train, so a passenger would be 'cheating' the system because the ticket wouldn't legitimately give them access.

If the ticket was an Aztec-coded one, would it be read at LBG revealing the lack of a SAC scan? I don't know, but that would presumably require subsequent analysis.

So I am reasonably assured that there is genuinely no risk of any problems using contactless to avoid both the high anytime cost and missing out on the Senior railcard discount
.
Thanks both for the answers to my question.

 

[redreni]

In the case of most destinations south or east of London, a day return from St Albans City would have a 'Maltese Cross' denoting cross-London validity, so would be issued as a Credit Card-Sized Ticket in any case.

But I can't see what issue you would possibly have at gatelines in any event. Obviously nobody's going to stop you travelling to London Bridge using Contactless.

After tapping out at London Bridge, when re-entering using the ticket, I can't see any reason why the barrier wouldn't open, nor any reason why they shouldn't let you through if for some reason the barrier didn't open. If they ask what time you left St Albans, you just say "I'm starting here".

The barrier logic is, as I understand it, quite crude. It will just be set to accept off-peak tickets at certain times and not at other times.

If you were trying to pass through just before 09:30 in order to catch the 09:31, say, then I suppose you might get "seek assistance" and have to be let through, though I would have thought most barriers would be set to allow off-peak tickets from a slightly earlier time (e.g. 09:20 or 09:25) specifically to avoid this problem and allow people to catch trains departing at or shortly after 09:30.

The fact the ticket hadn't been used at SAC would be neither here nor there, because starting short is permitted. As, for that matter, is passing through the gateline at St Albans City without necessarily inserting or scanning your ticket (e.g. if the barrier has been left open). 'Missing' scans are quite common and shouldn't be an issue at all. I'd go further and say, in this particular case, if you're trying to start short at London Bridge at half past nine in the morning, then it's a jolly good thing for there to be no record of the ticket being used earlier (at St Albans or anywhere else) because it's not valid to be used earlier.

 

[AM9]

In the case of most destinations south or east of London, a day return from St Albans City would have a 'Maltese Cross' denoting cross-London validity, so would be issued as a Credit Card-Sized Ticket in any case.

But I can't see what issue you would possibly have at gatelines in any event. Obviously nobody's going to stop you travelling to London Bridge using Contactless.

After tapping out at London Bridge, when re-entering using the ticket, I can't see any reason why the barrier wouldn't open, nor any reason why they shouldn't let you through if for some reason the barrier didn't open. If they ask what time you left St Albans, you just say "I'm starting here".

The barrier logic is, as I understand it, quite crude. It will just be set to accept off-peak tickets at certain times and not at other times.

If you were trying to pass through just before 09:30 in order to catch the 09:31, say, then I suppose you might get "seek assistance" and have to be let through, though I would have thought most barriers would be set to allow off-peak tickets from a slightly earlier time (e.g. 09:20 or 09:25) specifically to avoid this problem and allow people to catch trains departing at or shortly after 09:30.

The fact the ticket hadn't been used at SAC would be neither here nor there, because starting short is permitted. As, for that matter, is passing through the gateline at St Albans City without necessarily inserting or scanning your ticket (e.g. if the barrier has been left open). 'Missing' scans are quite common and shouldn't be an issue at all. I'd go further and say, in this particular case, if you're trying to start short at London Bridge at half past nine in the morning, then it's a jolly good thing for there to be no record of the ticket being used earlier (at St Albans or anywhere else) because it's not valid to be used earlier.

The passing through the barrier at St Albans just before 09:30 is a well established routine, - the last fast up train before then is the 09:27, and the gateline allows entry for the 09:30 as soon as the 09:27 starts rolling.

As far as the actual journey on Monday is concerned, I'll come clean here. In the OP, I said changing at (say) London Bridge to Kent/Sussex.

Actually, my wife will be travelling from St Albans to Deal via HS1, (and will probably be the only person making that journey on that whole day), and if some staffer read this they might be one of those that didn't agree with the device of contactless travel to allow joining later.

The problem is that the first legitimate train after 09:30 arrives at St Pancras at 10:02 giving just 5 minutes to catch the 10:07 on the opposite side of the station, - quite unlikely. The HS1 services to East Kent now only give one train per hour running via Ashford and serving Deal, so it would take over 3 hours to get there. Contactless will allow her to take the 09:43 to St Pancras and catch the HS1 comfortably.

 

[Jim the Jim]

If you were trying to pass through just before 09:30 in order to catch the 09:31, say, then I suppose you might get "seek assistance" and have to be let through, though I would have thought most barriers would be set to allow off-peak tickets from a slightly earlier time (e.g. 09:20 or 09:25) specifically to avoid this problem and allow people to catch trains departing at or shortly after 09:30.

You might think so ... but in my experience ticket machines won't even sell you off-peak tickets before 0930, so I doubt barrier logic is much better.

 

[Haywain]

You might think so ... but in my experience ticket machines won't even sell you off-peak tickets before 0930, so I doubt barrier logic is much better.

That depends on who wrote the barrier logic in the same way the TVMs depend on who set the time bands for selling off peak tickets.

 

[Wallsendmag]

You might think so ... but in my experience ticket machines won't even sell you off-peak tickets before 0930, so I doubt barrier logic is much better.

So both need a Journey planner to remove the incossistency

 

[redreni]

The passing through the barrier at St Albans just before 09:30 is a well established routine, - the last fast up train before then is the 09:27, and the gateline allows entry for the 09:30 as soon as the 09:27 starts rolling.

As far as the actual journey on Monday is concerned, I'll come clean here. In the OP, I said changing at (say) London Bridge to Kent/Sussex.

Actually, my wife will be travelling from St Albans to Deal via HS1, (and will probably be the only person making that journey on that whole day), and if some staffer read this they might be one of those that didn't agree with the device of contactless travel to allow joining later.

The problem is that the first legitimate train after 09:30 arrives at St Pancras at 10:02 giving just 5 minutes to catch the 10:07 on the opposite side of the station, - quite unlikely. The HS1 services to East Kent now only give one train per hour running via Ashford and serving Deal, so it would take over 3 hours to get there. Contactless will allow her to take the 09:43 to St Pancras and catch the HS1 comfortably.

I really wouldn't worry about it. The spirit of the rules is not a thing. What you're suggesting is allowed.

Worth checking if it would be worth using an undiscounted Anytime single to an intermediate station to cover the part of the journey that occurs before 09:30. It would have to be to a station at which the train calls at or after 09:30 (e.g. West Hampstead Thameslink).

 

[AM9]

I really wouldn't worry about it. The spirit of the rules is not a thing. What you're suggesting is allowed.

Worth checking if it would be worth using an undiscounted Anytime single to an intermediate station to cover the part of the journey that occurs before 09:30. It would have to be to a station at which the train calls at or after 09:30 (e.g. West Hampstead Thameslink).

Unfortunately, the train required to catch the HS1 train leaves St Albans at 09:27 and arrives at St Pancras at 09:50 which is before the 4F restriction ends. Of course an Anytime Single ticket to St Pancras would do but it would be to London Thameslink and undiscounted costs £15.90. A peak contactless ticket for the journey would be £13.50 and if the off-peak Deal return was obtained today it would be a contactless walkthrough at both ends of the up Thameslink portion.

As far as the spirit of the rules go, I doubt that they were constructed with this particular journey in mind. The reduction of SE HS1 services going round the loop via Ashford has created the situation where it takes over 3 hours from the first permitted off-peak train to a destination just over 100 miles away when travelling three quarters of it over a premium high speed route that adds a premium cost to the ticket. Given that the first train is a top commuter line, it would be impractical to create an easement to the ticket that wouldn't be abused.

 

[redreni]

Unfortunately, the train required to catch the HS1 train leaves St Albans at 09:27 and arrives at St Pancras at 09:50 which is before the 4F restriction ends. Of course an Anytime Single ticket to St Pancras would do but it would be to London Thameslink and undiscounted costs £15.90. A peak contactless ticket for the journey would be £13.50 and if the off-peak Deal return was obtained today it would be a contactless walkthrough at both ends of the up Thameslink portion.

4F restricts departing before 09:30, so if you only start to use it at West Hampstead Thameslink and you're departing after 09:30 that complies with the substantive restriction set out in 4F.

Admittedly it does go on to say "In addition to the specific restrictions shown, for travel to/from London St Pancras International on part of the outward or return journey please also refer to Restriction Code 7E". That seems to me to be unclear: are they politely requesting that the passenger refers to another restriction, or are they telling the passenger that all or part of that other restriction actually applies if they use this ticket? If the latter, why does restriction 4F not say that?How far down the rabbit hole of following cross-references are passengers expected to go in order to work out if their ticket is valid? Ultimately, the ticket doesn't say restriction 7E applies to it.

I admit using the ticket from West Hampstead and arriving at St Pancras before 10am is a grey area and may not be what the fare setter intends, and may cause hassle when exiting at the St Pancras Thameslink gateline. Using Contactless to St Pancras and the ticket from St Pancras at the time proposed is definitely okay, as far as I can see.

 

[AM9]

4F restricts departing before 09:30, so if you only start to use it at West Hampstead Thameslink and you're departing after 09:30 that complies with the substantive restriction set out in 4F.

Admittedly it does go on to say "In addition to the specific restrictions shown, for travel to/from London St Pancras International on part of the outward or return journey please also refer to Restriction Code 7E". That seems to me to be unclear: are they politely requesting that the passenger refers to another restriction, or are they telling the passenger that all or part of that other restriction actually applies if they use this ticket? If the latter, why does restriction 4F not say that?How far down the rabbit hole of following cross-references are passengers expected to go in order to work out if their ticket is valid? Ultimately, the ticket doesn't say restriction 7E applies to it.

I admit using the ticket from West Hampstead and arriving at St Pancras before 10am is a grey area and may not be what the fare setter intends, and may cause hassle when exiting at the St Pancras Thameslink gateline. Using Contactless to St Pancras and the ticket from St Pancras at the time proposed is definitely okay, as far as I can see.

Assuming the return ticket is issued today, I will report back after tomorrow's travel.

 

[Haywain]

I admit using the ticket from West Hampstead and arriving at St Pancras before 10am is a grey area and may not be what the fare setter intends, and may cause hassle when exiting at the St Pancras Thameslink gateline. Using Contactless to St Pancras and the ticket from St Pancras at the time proposed is definitely okay, as far as I can see.

Buying a ticket from St Albans to West Hampstead instead of St Pancras make a minimal saving anyway, and contactless to St Pancras remains the cheaper option.

 

[AM9]

Well, there were no problems relating to the validity of the ticket yesterday but for many, travel on Thameslink was a problem. The 09:27 was delayed and then cancelled before it reached St Albans, as was everything else owing to a 'train striking a person between Luton and St Albans'. I dropped her off at around 09:10 and she was able to catch the earlier fast (09:13) which was running late, probably the last through train yesterday. There were no problems at St Pancras gatelines and the journey completed as planned.
On the return, Thameslink was again in chaos owing to another train-passenger incident near Gatwick which resulted in most trains being cancelled. She eventually caught a fast which on boarding was announced to be calling all stations, - however, it was a 12-car unit meaning that at several stations there were extended stops as despite frequent announcements, passengers for the stops with short platforms had to walk forward up to 5 cars to alight. Some journey on what is normally quite a reliable service.
Thanks for the helpful comments by all posters on this thread.