Class 810 for East Midlands Railway Construction/Introduction Updates

[tfw756rider]

Maybe they are hedging their bets in case they enter service on, say, 31st December 2025.

Ah yes.

 

[Mikw]

Would you want to introduce new trains in the winter? We know how cold weather doesn't always lead to great operations.

 

[py_megapixel]

Would you want to introduce new trains in the winter? We know how cold weather doesn't always lead to great operations.

I would suggest if the alternative is no trains at all (because the old ones have been moved elsewhere) then the answer is a resounding yes!

 

[Snow1964]

Would you want to introduce new trains in the winter? We know how cold weather doesn't always lead to great operations.

Does it really make any difference, could just as easily say not ideal during hot weather or a rainy day.

Winter comes around annually, the trains really ought to be designed and built to handle winter weather. If they can't cope after 3 years of testing, then not really fit for purpose.

 

[Bald Rick]

Would you want to introduce new trains in the winter? We know how cold weather doesn't always lead to great operations.

Plenty of fleets first entered service in the winter.

 

[Qwerty133]

"In the coming weeks" is a bit optimistic

Quite honestly given the need to get the first 5 or so units into service like yesterday to cover for the first batch of 222s to depart they'd be better off bringing a 810 into service each time there are another 4 or 5 drivers trained on them (or whatever the bare minimum number would be for a fixed diagram to be covered if those drivers did no other work).

 

[AndrewJM70]

How many drivers are there in total?

 

[The_Train]

Quite honestly given the need to get the first 5 or so units into service like yesterday to cover for the first batch of 222s to depart they'd be better off bringing a 810 into service each time there are another 4 or 5 drivers trained on them (or whatever the bare minimum number would be for a fixed diagram to be covered if those drivers did no other work).

They only have 2 units in their possession, don't they?

 

[Aspen90]

How many drivers are there in total?

There’s approx 43 at a Kettering, 70-75 at London, Derby I’m not sure - I know it’s in the hundreds but a lot are regional too, I’m not sure of the split.

 

[800001]

They only have 2 units in their possession, don't they?

Yes, which need further work to make them acceptable to be able to carry passengers.

They can only be used for crew training, so as yet no unit available to ensure revenue earning traffic.

Either 810006 or 810010 will be next unit.

 

[Snow1964]

810010 at Aycliffe should be the next unit to be handed over/accepted by EMR, and I believe this unit will be to the required standard to be used with passengers on board.

The other two units accepted by EMR (008/009) need further work before being allowed to carry passengers.

I suspect Hitachi will be quite glad to hand over more if it cuts penalty payments for late delivery.

We know from Rock Rail East Midlands accounts that Hitachi had paid £30.7m upto 31 March 2025 in liquidated damages for late delivery.

Although Rock Rail profit on this income has given Government £12.15m in Corporation Tax.

And for anyone not following the money merry go round. Rock Rail East Midlands plc is a subsidiary of Rock Rail East Midlands (Holdings) 2 Ltd, which is a subsidiary of Rock Rail East Midlands (Holdings) 1 Ltd, which is jointly controlled, one party being Hitachi Rail.

 

[tfw756rider]

And for anyone not following the money merry go round. Rock Rail East Midlands plc is a subsidiary of Rock Rail East Midlands (Holdings) 2 Ltd, which is a subsidiary of Rock Rail East Midlands (Holdings) 1 Ltd, which is jointly controlled, one party being Hitachi Rail.

Why is it that complicated?

 

[Killingworth]

I And for anyone not following the money merry go round. Rock Rail East Midlands plc is a subsidiary of Rock Rail East Midlands (Holdings) 2 Ltd, which is a subsidiary of Rock Rail East Midlands (Holdings) 1 Ltd, which is jointly controlled, one party being Hitachi Rail.

The other being a small company ROLLING STOCK INVESTMENT NO1 LIMITED

Smoke and mirrors?

 

[Wyrleybart]

I suspect Hitachi will be quite glad to hand over more if it cuts penalty payments for late delivery.

We know from Rock Rail East Midlands accounts that Hitachi had paid £30.7m upto 31 March 2025 in liquidated damages for late delivery.

Although Rock Rail profit on this income has given Government £12.15m in Corporation Tax.

And for anyone not following the money merry go round. Rock Rail East Midlands plc is a subsidiary of Rock Rail East Midlands (Holdings) 2 Ltd, which is a subsidiary of Rock Rail East Midlands (Holdings) 1 Ltd, which is jointly controlled, one party being Hitachi Rail.

I imagine some organisation is payimg the lease extensions on the 222s which should have been sitting in a damp field off lease by now.

 

[Snow1964]

Why is it that complicated?

Probably been set up by some wizz City tax lawyer to utilise loopholes in UKs complicated tax system.

The other being a small company ROLLING STOCK INVESTMENT NO1 LIMITED

Smoke and mirrors?

A joint venture between Mitsubishi HC Capital and Rock Rail East Midlands Management Ltd.

Hitachi Capital (UK) plc became part of MHCC in 2022
RREMM gets management fees from other Rock Rail group companies.

 

[InTheEastMids]

Would you want to introduce new trains in the winter? We know how cold weather doesn't always lead to great operations.

Does it really make any difference, could just as easily say not ideal during hot weather or a rainy day

To be fair, it feels like hot weather is more problematic for trains in this country, particularly if - for example - you've shoe-horned a large diesel engine capable of producing > 1MW of heat into a streamlined box under the carriage. From my experience (and this forum), over-heating of the passenger space in hot weather due to AC issues seems to be more common than under-heating in cold weather.

Is there any informed view on what's going on with 810 testing at Old Dalby? There is a 5Q61 to St Pancras and 5Q62 return that I am 95% sure are 810 testing.
However, they seem to have been cancelled every day for a few weeks now.

 

[800001]

To be fair, it feels like hot weather is more problematic for trains in this country, particularly if - for example - you've shoe-horned a large diesel engine capable of producing > 1MW of heat into a streamlined box under the carriage. From my experience (and this forum), over-heating of the passenger space in hot weather due to AC issues seems to be more common than under-heating in cold weather.

Is there any informed view on what's going on with 810 testing at Old Dalby? There is a 5Q61 to St Pancras and 5Q62 return that I am 95% sure are 810 testing.
However, they seem to have been cancelled every day for a few weeks now.

Testing is paused. With no reason given why.

 

[Aspen90]

I saw an 810 today going and coming back from Manton direction when I was at Corby, don’t know how far down it went though. Shame about creating being stopped.

 

[InTheEastMids]

I saw an 810 today going and coming back from Manton direction when I was at Corby, don’t know how far down it went though. Shame about creating being stopped.

Thanks - for people not following this thread that closely, there are EMR-operated crew training runs that start/end at Derby (which I assume you saw today), using trains that have been handed over (currently 2 units?) plus testing/proving runs that run out of Old Dalby, which are trains still owned by Hitachi.

Testing is paused. With no reason given why.

Thank you. It will not fill customers with confidence about EMR's performance in autumn and winter to think that progress has once again stalled.
At least one of the local MPs (Neil O'Brien, Con, Harborough & Wigston) is again drawing attention to the ongoing shambles challenges.

 

[800001]

Thanks - for people not following this thread that closely, there are EMR-operated crew training runs that start/end at Derby (which I assume you saw today), using trains that have been handed over (currently 2 units?) plus testing/proving runs that run out of Old Dalby, which are trains still owned by Hitachi.


Thank you. It will not fill customers with confidence about EMR's performance in autumn and winter to think that progress has once again stalled.
At least one of the local MPs (Neil O'Brien, Con, Harborough & Wigston) is again drawing attention to the ongoing shambles challenges.

810006 should be delivered next week.

 

[Aspen90]

First passenger service unit to run in December apparently. No more accuracy afraid and yes - that’s December 2025!

 

[800001]

First passenger service unit to run in December apparently. No more accuracy afraid and yes - that’s December 2025!

Been told from a reliable source today, that further issues have been found with 810006 that is due to leave next week, believed to be an issue with carpets throughout the whole unit that need attention to before it can leave factory.

Why this has only come to light in the last week or so, I do not know.

 

[Kite159]

First passenger service unit to run in December apparently. No more accuracy afraid and yes - that’s December 2025!

So a one off unadvertised service on the 31st December between Derby & Nottingham then

 

[Wyrleybart]

Been told from a reliable source today, that further issues have been found with 810006 that is due to leave next week, believed to be an issue with carpets throughout the whole unit that need attention to before it can leave factory.

Why this has only come to light in the last week or so, I do not know.

Beggars belief don't it. Fom what I understand the 810s were originally planned to be in service from December 2022. - 33 months ago. I know some folk are insisting they are a brand new design, but in my mind they are 24m modification to the 26m AT300 design with aluminium bodyshells ands preexisting bogie design. Obviously the underframes will have slightly different dimensions with different rafts for the power modules, and under different cars comapred to the original 800 / 802 design, and differernt capacity MTU engines. Nevertheless, in principle thye are still AT300 family trains, assembled at the same Hitachi factory.

 

[PG]

Why this has only come to light in the last week or so, I do not know.

Quality control staff just returned from a long summer holiday to find the workforce were on holiday too and some 70's British Leyland folk stepped in to keep the job going!!...

 

[tfw756rider]

differernt capacity MTU engines

Aren't they still 21-litre?

 

[Aspen90]

Been told from a reliable source today, that further issues have been found with 810006 that is due to leave next week, believed to be an issue with carpets throughout the whole unit that need attention to before it can leave factory.

Why this has only come to light in the last week or so, I do not know.

It’s worrying that something so in front of your eyes has only just been found to be an issue - doesn’t bode well for all of the hidden bits and pieces that are out of sight. The ‘smooth’ roll out of these in to service wanted by EMR is certainly going to be interesting to watch that’s for sure.

 

[D365]

I know some folk are insisting they are a brand new design, but in my mind they are 24m modification to the 26m AT300 design with aluminium bodyshells ands preexisting bogie design. Obviously the underframes will have slightly different dimensions with different rafts for the power modules, and under different cars comapred to the original 800 / 802 design, and differernt capacity MTU engines. Nevertheless, in principle thye are still AT300 family trains, assembled at the same Hitachi factory.

The electrical architecture and onboard electronic equipment has been significantly redesigned when compared to the previous 80x fleets. So yes, they are as ’brand new’ as any train type can be, save for the Aventra which was a fundamentally brand new design.

 

[QSK19]

At least one of the local MPs (Neil O'Brien, Con, Harborough & Wigston) is again drawing attention to the ongoing shambles challenges.

Shambles is very much the correct word IMO. Some sort of proper review needs to be done once this sorry saga is over.

As for MPs speaking up, I got a useless response from Jeevun Sandher (Loughborough) regarding MML electrification being “paused” - simply that he “had been advocating for” it. He clearly hadn’t, rather toeing his party’s line without reservation in a “yes sir, certainly sir, no problem sir” fashion - aspirations to become a minister no doubt. At least Neil O’Brien, being a Tory, can kick up a fuss.

 

[Aspen90]

I just think it would have been much more beneficial if they could have just got Leicester station wired before shelving it. The 360’s could have taken some of the strain from the intercity services at Leicester and used the quieter P4. Just a thought and I’m no expert in the feasibility but short sightedness wins again it seems.