Making a will, should I use a will writer or a solicitor?

[SuspectUsual]

What are solicitors actually getting out of this ‘free service’ of will writing? Maybe as below in my next paragraph?

Looking on line it seems they often upsell by way of promoting themselves to become executor or sorting out probate where required.

In this world companies do not do anything in business for no return.

1 - real life training for new solicitors with a check at the end from a more experienced one

2 - start a relationship with the client, in the hope that when anything else is needed the client thinks “oh, I know a solicitors”

 

[DarloRich]

1 - real life training for new solicitors with a check at the end from a more experienced one

That is a standard part of your training and a chargeable item for the firm. A lower rate perhaps but still chargeable.

Point 2 is a fair one although by the time you need/want a will I am sure you have dealt with solicitors so will know one.

If you find a good one people tend to stay for things like conveyancing, wills, divorce, minor crime etc

 

[Gloster]

As was mentioned above, if your executor is a lawyer, or even if it is a trusted relative, it is worthwhile supplying them with a list of your various back accounts and so on. Alternatively, you can keep the details in a specific location and tell them where to look first. You could also include general instructions advising them how to dispose of items that you reckon are too valuable or important to be just dumped in a skip or given to a charity shop.

About a year ago I was walking up the hill when someone called me. It was the postman and, knowing I get a lot of railway journals, he told me that down one of the cul-de-sacs off my road was a skip containing railway books. I went along and found Chapelon’s book on the steam locomotive, both volumes of Maskelyne’s drawings, books on Porta’s work, and much more. They had tried to give them to charity shops but got no interest. (Round here the attitude is, “Is it by Catherine Cookson?…No! Then we’re not interested.”)

 

[barringtoncem]

I believe that Which offer a discount of £50 if you have a Will & POA at the same time

 

[david1212]

3- 4% could turn out to be a hefty sum. I wouldn't recommend that route.

Indeed a modest house, remaining personal pension fund in draw down rather than annuity and savings in ISA's could easily be >£500k. If life is cut short maybe closer to £1m.
What route(s) do you recommend?

Solicitor worth their salt would word the will to accommodate the fact that care fees or other costs could eat in to the value of the estate and thus adjusted if there is insufficient monies to pay them in full. You can also word the will such that they are only paid after certain other legacies have,been paid, if enough remains

I don't doubt there are ways to word the will and set priorities. IMO simply splitting the pot by % only keeps things simple. The charities ought to be grateful and trust where handled by a solicitor the sum they receive is according to the will.
If all by individuals then requesting proof that the sum they have received is according to the will is I suppose more reasonable.

Another tip I was given - this is a good idea but provide the full names, especially if the first and last names are relatively commonplace

The list has postal addresses as email and phone numbers can change. The agreement while informal is that I provided updates but if there is an address change it should be easy to trace.

As was mentioned above, if your executor is a lawyer, or even if it is a trusted relative, it is worthwhile either supplying them with a list of your various back accounts and so on. Alternatively, you can keep them in a specific location and tell them where to look first. You could also include general instructions advising them how to dispose of items that you reckon are too valuable or important to be just dumped in a skip or given to a charity shop.

I have done a list of bank, building society etc. accounts again with the arrangement to provide updates of changes.
A few items/sets are listed in the will to named individuals. A 'to do' is to group and label or at least take photographs, title and put with the copy of the will in the house and send scans to the solicitor.
For the house contents both previous and current solicitor work with a local business who are also auctioneers and valuers of collectables. I don't have anything I consider valuable so have to trust they pick out anything deemed worth putting in a specialist auction rather than a general household one. In an ideal world the nett sales would cover their fees while if a surplus a bonus to the beneficiaries.

--

Ref:- no body to appoint as attorney

At that point you'd likely end up with a Deputy appointed by the Court of Protection on application of most likely your council's Adult Social Services. Some solicitors can end up acting a deputies for people following appointment by the Court of Protection but it's a chargeable service so that's only likely to happen to people with substantial resources. Joe Bloggs with no suitable family or trusted friends to give Power of Attorney (if you made that arrangement prior to becoming incapacitated) or to apply for Deputyship (if you no longer had capacity at the point you needed someone) is probably going to end up with the council taking on the role.

First here is the definition of 'substantial resources'. If more than managing income from state and private pensions plus benefits would the council accept full responsibility? Even if just savings there ought to be a responsibility to ensure in an account giving a reasonable return not nothing or say 1% when 4% easily obtainable.
If a house is owned I thought a charge could be put against it to be paid when the will is executed but not actually sold. Of course there are costs just to prevent major structural deterioration i.e. if roof started to leak. A 'can of worms' would be a low level of heating in the winter but then not just direct running costs but checking, service of boiler and what to do if a fault occurs?

All of this makes this post by @WesternLancer worrying

Interesting point - there was a BBC Radio 4 series about an aspect of this not so long ago that I listened to - it was very concerning about aspects of this.
Summary below

BBC Radio 4 - Shadow World, The Willpower Detectives

Power of attorney - what can go wrong? Concerned neighbours ask Sue Mitchell for help.

www.bbc.co.uk

 

[simonw]

Indeed a modest house, remaining personal pension fund in draw down rather than annuity and savings in ISA's could easily be >£500k. If life is cut short maybe closer to £1m.
What route(s) do you recommend?


I don't doubt there are ways to word the will and set priorities. IMO simply splitting the pot by % only keeps things simple. The charities ought to be grateful and trust where handled by a solicitor the sum they receive is according to the will.
If all by individuals then requesting proof that the sum they have received is according to the will is I suppose more reasonable.


The list has postal addresses as email and phone numbers can change. The agreement while informal is that I provided updates but if there is an address change it should be easy to trace.


I have done a list of bank, building society etc. accounts again with the arrangement to provide updates of changes.
A few items/sets are listed in the will to named individuals. A 'to do' is to group and label or at least take photographs, title and put with the copy of the will in the house and send scans to the solicitor.
For the house contents both previous and current solicitor work with a local business who are also auctioneers and valuers of collectables. I don't have anything I consider valuable so have to trust they pick out anything deemed worth putting in a specialist auction rather than a general household one. In an ideal world the nett sales would cover their fees while if a surplus a bonus to the beneficiaries.

--

Ref:- no body to appoint as attorney


First here is the definition of 'substantial resources'. If more than managing income from state and private pensions plus benefits would the council accept full responsibility? Even if just savings there ought to be a responsibility to ensure in an account giving a reasonable return not nothing or say 1% when 4% easily obtainable.
If a house is owned I thought a charge could be put against it to be paid when the will is executed but not actually sold. Of course there are costs just to prevent major structural deterioration i.e. if roof started to leak. A 'can of worms' would be a low level of heating in the winter but then not just direct running costs but checking, service of boiler and what to do if a fault occurs?

All of this makes this post by @WesternLancer worrying

My recommendations is not to make a solicitor an executor, the executors can then decide if they need legal help.

I've seen too many cases of charities requiring proof (as they are required to do) that they got a% and not X-y % at great cost to the other beneficiaries

 

[35B]

For the house contents both previous and current solicitor work with a local business who are also auctioneers and valuers of collectables. I don't have anything I consider valuable so have to trust they pick out anything deemed worth putting in a specialist auction rather than a general household one. In an ideal world the nett sales would cover their fees while if a surplus a bonus to the beneficiaries.

My experience as an executor has been that I have been surprised, in good and bad ways, by the values of items. I’ve access to old valuations for some of the possessions involved and today’s values are very different from those of 30-70 years ago.

One of the important advantages of the will I’m executor of is that it hasn’t tried to tie our hands. We are finding local experts and letting them guide us as to valuations, which gives us a chance to determine what we do and don’t want to keep.

If there are things you wish to give, then specify that you want to give them as things, and be clear that they can then do as they see fit with them. Your executors can then deal with the property and sell or transfer it as appropriate.

What you want to avoid is an inheritor receiving stuff, not being able to deal with it, and then cursing your generosity or, as bad, sticking it in store for 30 years till their executors have to deal with it.

 

[david1212]

My recommendations is not to make a solicitor an executor, the executors can then decide if they need legal help.

So to repeat my previous post in the will who do I appoint as executors?
Remember no family, no younger trusted close friend(s) to even ask regardless if they would accept the responsibility.

 

[Mcr Warrior]

So to repeat my previous post in the will who do I appoint as executors?
Remember no family, no younger trusted close friend(s) to even ask regardless if they would accept the responsibility.

Could any of the beneficiaries, that you intend to nominate, act as executor? This might not be suitable in all circumstances, though.

 

[35B]

So to repeat my previous post in the will who do I appoint as executors?
Remember no family, no younger trusted close friend(s) to even ask regardless if they would accept the responsibility.

I don't know in those circumstances. The job is a responsibility so it may be that this is one of the occasions where appointing a paid executor is the right approach - having (part) done the role, I'd not volunteer lightly for it.

 

[Gloster]

Some people are in the situation where there is nobody that they know that can reasonably be asked to be an executor: the only option is to appoint a solicitor and accept the cost. In that situation well thought out and thorough instructions that are left with the will will help to cut the cost a bit.

 

[ainsworth74]

So to repeat my previous post in the will who do I appoint as executors?
Remember no family, no younger trusted close friend(s) to even ask regardless if they would accept the responsibility.

Well the first question might well be what do you want to happen to your estate when you die and how complex the estate might be? I mean if you don't care what happens to your earthly possessions then there's no requirement to make a will. But if you do want it to go to specific places then this is probably the sort of scenario when yes, you might want to appoint a solicitor to act as executor.

 

[35B]

Well the first question might well be what do you want to happen to your estate when you die and how complex the estate might be? I mean if you don't care what happens to your earthly possessions then there's no requirement to make a will. But if you do want it to go to specific places then this is probably the sort of scenario when yes, you might want to appoint a solicitor to act as executor.

Bearing in mind that the law is quite specific about what happens in the event of intestacy - and "no family" can often mean "no close family that I know". Friends and supported charities are too easily left out in that situation, because intestacy rules simply don't acknowledge their existence

 

[ainsworth74]

Bearing in mind that the law is quite specific about what happens in the event of intestacy - and "no family" can often mean "no close family that I know". Friends and supported charities are too easily left out in that situation, because intestacy rules simply don't acknowledge their existence

Oh absolutely hence why I phrased it as "if you don't care". Obviously if you do a will would be sensible to make sure the money goes in the right directions.

Personally I don't have a will but I have no siblings, spouse or children so it all goes to my mum if I do die before her. I might reconsider after she passes as there are some uncles, aunts and cousins and I'm not at all close to them so wouldn't necessarily want them to inherit.

 

[Gloster]

Oh absolutely hence why I phrased it as "if you don't care". Obviously if you do a will would be sensible to make sure the money goes in the right directions.

Personally I don't have a will but I have no siblings, spouse or children so it all goes to my mum if I do die before her. I might reconsider after she passes as there are some uncles, aunts and cousins and I'm not at all close to them so wouldn't necessarily want them to inherit.

Even in that situation it might be worth getting a simple will now. You just need to say that you leave it all to her, but if she predeceases you you can explain what you want done with your estate. You could include a clause about the one outliving the other by a certain period: even though the case in #44 was over sixty years ago, the problem was caused by two deaths very close together.

EDIT: underlined added for clarity.

 

[Jimini]

Yeah, similar situation here where my Father remarried, so his estate came to me apart from the house he co-owned with his second wife. That’s now in trust until she passes, at which point it’ll get divvied up 50/50 between me, and her children.

 

[david1212]

I don't know in those circumstances. The job is a responsibility so it may be that this is one of the occasions where appointing a paid executor is the right approach - having (part) done the role, I'd not volunteer lightly for it.

Some people are in the situation where there is nobody that they know that can reasonably be asked to be an executor: the only option is to appoint a solicitor and accept the cost. In that situation well thought out and thorough instructions that are left with the will will help to cut the cost a bit.

These posts match what I concluded.

Well the first question might well be what do you want to happen to your estate when you die and how complex the estate might be? I mean if you don't care what happens to your earthly possessions then there's no requirement to make a will. But if you do want it to go to specific places then this is probably the sort of scenario when yes, you might want to appoint a solicitor to act as executor.

This is what I want.
OT as discussed on this thread but I hope the Assisted Dying Bill gets introduced then expanded. I do not want ££££ to go on care fees to lie in a bed staring at the ceiling and riddled with bed sores for months if not years.

Personally I don't have a will but I have no siblings, spouse or children so it all goes to my mum if I do die before her. I might reconsider after she passes as there are some uncles, aunts and cousins and I'm not at all close to them so wouldn't necessarily want them to inherit.

IMO you should have a will.
One example scenario would be if both you and your mum were killed together in a car crash. Without a will how then would your estate be distributed and what fees might be incurred just tracing the family tree and determining this? Once decided given your statement that you 'wouldn't necessarily want them to inherit' it could be very different to what your choice.

 

[oldman]

One example scenario would be if both you and your mum were killed together in a car crash. Without a will how then would your estate be distributed and what fees might be incurred just tracing the family tree and determining this?

Absolutely. Different scenario, but my sister and her late husband (no children) had the simplest of home-made wills, survivor to be the executor, everything to the survivor. Sorted, especially as all their assets were jointly-owned.

But it would have been a nightmare if they had died together, or a short time apart. A lot of legal work (but who would appoint the lawyer?), and almost certainly some unintended consequences. Make a will.

 

[ainsworth74]

One example scenario would be if both you and your mum were killed together in a car crash. Without a will how then would your estate be distributed and what fees might be incurred just tracing the family tree and determining this? Once decided given your statement that you 'wouldn't necessarily want them to inherit' it could be very different to what your choice.

To be honest if that happened I wouldn't be around to care and it doesn't exercise me greatly now thinking about it. And perhaps I've overstated my feeling on the extended family. I harbour no ill will towards them we're just not close so I'd prefer it to go to charitable causes I support. But in the event me and mum get taken out tomorrow I'm not going to be upset at it going to random family members.

 

[35B]

To be honest if that happened I wouldn't be around to care and it doesn't exercise me greatly now thinking about it. And perhaps I've overstated my feeling on the extended family. I harbour no ill will towards them we're just not close so I'd prefer it to go to charitable causes I support. But in the event me and mum get taken out tomorrow I'm not going to be upset at it going to random family members.

At least that's a conscious decision.

 

[Tetchytyke]

I'd prefer it to go to charitable causes I support. But in the event me and mum get taken out tomorrow I'm not going to be upset at it going to random family members.

It may not even go to them, depending on how far removed they are. If there isn't anyone then the whole lot just goes to the government, not even the charity.

I'd say making a will is a good idea. And I say that as someone who doesn't have a will...

 

[SuspectUsual]

If there isn't anyone then the whole lot just goes to the government, not even the charity

The lady I made my will with was really clear on the need for a “nuclear option” as she called it, on the event that everyone I named in my will pre-deceased me and my parents were both already dead.

Highly unlikely (currently it would need five people to pre-decease me plus any grandchildren that may arrive) but not impossible, so there are charities named as a backstop

 

[neilmc]

My late father-in-law made me and my son executors of his will, which was done clearly via a solicitor and was easy enough to execute as he had provided me with details of where all his money was! My wife was the major benificiary so having done everything properly meant I could fend off parties who claimed they had been promised various things which weren't included in the will. As we grow older we have done the same thing with both a will and powers of attorney as the latter is very easy to do when you're clearly healthy and of a sound mind and a nightmare once you're not! We also made provision that should one of us die their half of the joint inheritance should be kept in trust for the rest of the family so that if my wife died first I couldn't disinherit my kids and leave everything to someone I met on the internet!

 

[david1212]

The lady I made my will with was really clear on the need for a “nuclear option” as she called it, on the event that everyone I named in my will pre-deceased me and my parents were both already dead.

Highly unlikely (currently it would need five people to pre-decease me plus any grandchildren that may arrive) but not impossible, so there are charities named as a backstop

As my will is written if any named person has died or if any charity ceases to exist ( as against a change of name or merger with another charity ) the fund will be split between the remaining beneficiaries. The maths would be odd as I worked it out in integer % so instead of a beneficiary getting say 5% they might get 5/95 = 5.26%.
.
Again time & cost but a will needs to be reviewed every few years or if a significant change e.g. death of a beneficiary who as written receives more than a small amount / proportion.

I've seen too many cases of charities requiring proof (as they are required to do) that they got a% and not X-y % at great cost to the other beneficiaries

If handled by a solicitor I would hope that they provide appropriate documentation with the payment so no quibble by the charity and no further expenses added to the solicitors charges.

 

[simonw]

If handled by a solicitor I would hope that they provide appropriate documentation with the payment so no quibble by the charity and no further expenses added to the solicitors charges.

I don't know what's in your estate or potentially in your estate to comment on specific items but there are various ways to monetise assets and some may be more acceptable than others to the charities. It's one for discussion between you and your executors.

 

[Starmill]

I don't own any property or land and won't be having any dependents any time soon. I also don't run my own business or need to ensure animals etc are cared for after I die. Hopefully I won't die during the next few decades, but I am not hubristic enough to rely on that. I have the bare minimum of cash sat around to ensure my living expenses can be met. But I do now own some stocks and bonds, some in relatively easily sold funds and some very illiquid, some in pension wrappers some in the Lifetime ISA. Some are even on crowdcube and Republic, where very low stakes were invested over the pandemic because they qualified for tax relief under EIS and SEIS schemes. I wonder if even for that I ought to have a solicitor-drafted Will.

 

[35B]

I don't know what's in your estate or potentially in your estate to comment on specific items but there are various ways to monetise assets and some may be more acceptable than others to the charities. It's one for discussion between you and your executors.

Or to specify in the Will. One major challenge may be the change in valuation between assessment for Probate (as at the date of death) and when Probate is granted (some months later). That is something that I will be discussing with my solicitor with a view to laying down how my Executors must make that allocation, so beneficiaries can't challenge it based on their narrow self-interest. Given the disgracefully greedy approach of some charities in high profile cases, I suspect I will go down the road of including a clause disinheriting any beneficiary who takes legal action over the allocation of the estate unless the Executors are negligent.

 

[Ivor]

Given the disgracefully greedy approach of some charities in high profile cases

Sorry do you mean some charities challenging their beneficiary rights in a will?

 

[35B]

Sorry do you mean some charities challenging their beneficiary rights in a will?

There have been cases. Posters here have made reference to challenges to the calculation of a distribution; there have been a few cases reported where the charity involved has litigated against the estate.

 

[Ivor]

There have been cases. Posters here have made reference to challenges to the calculation of a distribution; there have been a few cases reported where the charity involved has litigated against the estate.

Ah right…thank you.