Cross Country - Get Some Extra Carriges

[Eric]

Yet again the Glasgow Central - Penzance was once again to capacity by the time it had reached Leeds which then had the usual people trying to force the doors open and board the already crowded train as the conductor tried to close them.

I know this capacity issue is discussed on here often but can someone please tell Cross Country that we are not Cows and deserve better in 2011 than being forced to stand for unacceptable durations on their sardine services.

Rant over.

 

[MidnightFlyer]

'Get some extra carriages'. Wow, if only it was that easy. What is complaining to AXC going to do? Do you think they don't know this? The DfT has power over this, there really is nothing AXC can do except ask (and get the answer 'no')!

 

[Zoe]

Also there is the issue that the engines used on the Voyagers are no longer in production and I'm not sure if the jigs for the Voyagers still exist.

 

[tom1649]

Scrapping all those perfectly competent mk2s was a mistake. They were fitted with central locking weren't they?

 

[Zoe]

Scrapping all those perfectly competent mk2s was a mistake. They were fitted with central locking weren't they?

Yes but Mark 2s would never be able to match the timings of the Voyagers. Trains are faster and run more frequently now.

 

[Eric]

Well for one they should know better that a Glasgow Central - Penzance route calling at Edinburgh, Newcastle, York, Leeds, Sheffield, Derby, Birmingham, Bristol (long distance trains) etc at the very least should be strengthened and not or never be a 4/5 car unit which is rammed with no luggage space because people are having to stand.

 

[Zoe]

Well for one they should know better that a Glasgow Central - Penzance route calling at Edinburgh, Newcastle, York, Leeds, Sheffield, Derby, Birmingham, Bristol (long distance trains) etc at the very least should be strengthened and not or never be a 4/5 car unit which is rammed with no luggage space because people are having to stand.

There's not much they can do though, they simply don't have the stock. The HSTs are needed for peak services through Birmingham.

 

[MidnightFlyer]

Well maybe they can't get the stock up there because it is needed elsewhere... In an ideal world, all NE-SW workings would be 8-10 car workings, but it just can't happen.

 

[Greenback]

Most of the trains introduced into service in the last fifteen years are inadequate in terms of seating and luggage space. At least outside of the South East in any case. It is the Birtish way to try and get everything done as cheaply a spossible, even though it costs far more to put things right later on.

 

[MidnightFlyer]

Most of the trains introduced into service in the last fifteen years are inadequate in terms of seating and luggage space. At least outside of the South East in any case.

Some Brighton main Line runs, especially in the summer, could do with more than 2 x 377s, some of the overcrowding is worse than Liverpool-Norwich etc.

 

[Eric]

Why do you keep travelling at busy times then? :roll:

This isn't really the point is it as if I didn't travel then someone would take my place?

Myself and others are now sick to our teeth of having to stand up on cramped and badly designed Voyager trains.

 

[Zoe]

Most of the trains introduced into service in the last fifteen years are inadequate in terms of seating and luggage space. At least outside of the South East in any case. It is the Birtish way to try and get everything done as cheaply a spossible, even though it costs far more to put things right later on.

When orders were made after privatization there wasn't expected to be the increase in passengers that we are seeing now. Rail travel had been in decline for some time before then.

 

[Greenback]

When orders were made after privatization there wasn't expected to be the increase in passengers that we are seeing now. Rail travel had been in decline for some time before then.

Rail travel started increasing in the second half of the 1980's. The economic downturn in the early 1990's did stall the rail renaissance a little, but that was only for a couple of years, the amount of rail travel has steadily increased since 1994/1995, which, interestingly, some people claim is down to privatisation!

I recall there bing loud complaints about overcrowded trains, and too little space for kuggage and bicycles when the 155's and 156's were introduced, so I should probably have said thirty years rather than fifteen!

 

[Eric]

When orders were made after privatization there wasn't expected to be the increase in passengers that we are seeing now. Rail travel had been in decline for some time before then.

Is that the excuse they use? Because every year the cost of a ticket goes up but yet the state of the service we the paying passengers receive goes down.

It's all symptomatic of the appalling state that our railways are currently in, because could you imagine SNCF putting on a 4 car unit on a TGV route between Lyon and Marseilles?

 

[bluenoxid]

This isn't really the point is it as if I didn't travel then someone would take my place?

Myself and others are now sick to our teeth of having to stand up on cramped and badly designed Voyager trains.

Really? Are the buses all full in your area because someone else gets on when you cannot be mithered to travel?

 

[Zoe]

To be fair, XC was the Cinderalla of BR. I did use Virgin HSTs and 47s and Mark 2s and they were never full so the idea of running shorter trains but at double the frequency was likely sound at the time. It's just that people were not expecting the increase in demand after Opertion Princess in 2002.

 

[tom1649]

Who cares if Mk2s were slower. Those lovely winged headrests and the 'either you love 'em or hate 'em' IC70 seats more than made up for it.

 

[Greenback]

To be fair, XC was the Cinderalla of BR. I did use Virgin HSTs and 47s and Mark 2s and they were never full so the idea of running shorter trains but at double the frequency was likely sound at the time. It's just that people were not expecting the increase in demand after Opertion Princess in 2002.

That is the biggest failure, the replacement of loco hauled trains with shorter but more frequent DMU's had led to big increases in travel on the regional lines in the 1980's. And they were not connecting such large centres of population and commerce!

Who is to blame has been discussed at length. For what it's worth, I believe both DfT and Virgin are complicit in failing to plan for an increase in demand that was pretty obviously going to occur based on what had gone before.

 

[Zoe]

increase in demand that was pretty obviously going to occur based on what had gone before.

Was it though? As I say I don't remmeber that many full loco hauled services. It may well be that neither OPRAF or Virgin thought so either at the time and so as I say the original plan may well have been sound, the question should more be over why the SRA blocked an order for extra coaches in 2002 and ordered Virgin to give up their remaining HSTs.

 

[tom1649]

Was it though? As I say I don't remmeber that many full loco hauled services. It may well be that neither OPRAF or Virgin thought so either at the time and so as I say the original plan may well have been sound, the question should more be over why the SRA blocked an order for extra coaches in 2002 and ordered Virgin to give up their remaining HSTs.

Perhaps they felt less full because they were more spacious?

 

[87015]

Was it though? As I say I don't remmeber that many full loco hauled services. It may well be that neither OPRAF or Virgin thought so either at the time and so as I say the original plan may well have been sound, the question should more be over why the SRA blocked an order for extra coaches in 2002 and ordered Virgin to give up their remaining HSTs.

Really? I remember lots and lots of F&S Crosscountry services that were load 7. You'd always struggle to get a seat on the 0906 Brighton out of New St for one.

Don't forget a big big part of the financial case for Operation Princess was the huge passenger growth was going to occur - they had a very expensive operation to fund. Doubling of train miles and doubling of traincrew requirements each hour doesn't come cheap. By 2002 that plan was on the floor and VXC had failed financially...

 

[Greenback]

Perhaps they felt less full because they were more spacious?

That is possible. I don't recall any less than well filled cross country services when they were HST's or 47's in the 1990's. At least not in the central core between Bristol and York

In 1997 I couldn't get a seat from Bristol Parkway on a HST to Scotland, and it was only at Birmingham that I found one. On a Sunday journey in the other direction the TM refused to take the train any further at Birmingham because of the crush. There were people sitting on the tables and armrests, but the train was short formed by one coach!

In 1992 my HST from Newcastle was full and standing before Sheffield, on a Thursday evening in March.

In fact, the only service that I experienced being anywhere near less than half full was during the signallers strikes in 1994.

 

[tbtc]

could you imagine SNCF putting on a 4 car unit on a TGV route between Lyon and Marseilles?

Is that a half hourly service?

Comparisons with foreign alternatives are usually awkward because they miss the point that a lot of countries overseas have infrequent services on such long distance routes, albeit with longer trains.

The half hourly service from Birmingham to Newcastle is fantastic. We all know there's a lack of seats on XC (I used to use them daily to commute to Leeds), but there are a lot of reasons for that:

Nobody had a crystal ball when the units were ordered in the 1990s
Government reluctance
Some suitable stock is being used on quieter "Open Access" services

(etc)

If we electrify Chester - Crewe (and downgrade the Holyhead service) then there's potentially twenty five coach Voyagers that would make a big difference to XC. There'll be some old HSTs freed up by GWML electrification. There will be improvements, but its not as simple to get longer trains as we'd like it to be.

 

[Zoe]

By 2002 that plan was on the floor and VXC had failed financially...

So why did OPRAF let the franchise to them in the first place if their plans were not sound?

 

[Dreadnought]

I thought that VXC had plans to lengthen all voyagers to 6 car and also tried to continue to use HSTs as well, but unfortunately the DfT had different ideas.

I think it was to do with the fact that it would cost extra money, despite the fact that it would benefit the travelling public!

 

[Zoe]

I thought that VXC had plans to lengthen all voyagers to 6 car and also tried to continue to use HSTs as well, but unfortunately the DfT had different ideas.

That was the SRA back in 2002/3003, by that time the franchise was on a management contract. If Virgin were really expecting huge passenger growth then this would have been stated in their bid and someone at OPRAF should have seen that Virgin's plan wasn't going to work and so not accpeted their bid. That said I remember talking to a Virgin TM just before the start of Operation Princess and they were quite confident that the trains would cope so they can't have been expecting as much growth as we saw in 2002.

 

[tbtc]

I thought that VXC had plans to lengthen all voyagers to 6 car and also tried to continue to use HSTs as well, but unfortunately the DfT had different ideas

Thats how I remember it too.

The only downsides to this plan are:

1. Some of the use for the HSTs was on "new" routes like Blackpool or Gloucester-Swindon (e.g. wouldn't have helped the areas experiencing problems)
2. The HSTs were to be five coaches (not full length)
3. Since it didn't happen at least the HSTs have meant FGW have been able to run more services (which freed up the 180s which meant HT could give their 222s to EMT, so a few areas have benefited from the HST cascade away from XC)

(I wish it had happened as Virgin intended, but I don't believe for a minute it'd have solved everything)

 

[87015]

So why did OPRAF let the franchise to them in the first place if their plans were not sound?

Brave new world if privatisation and all that... No doubt they imagined a better result than reality delivered.
It was only when things started falling down the SRA started getting involved. It didn't take long for Princess to look like a dead duck.

 

[tom1649]

Brave new world if privatisation and all that... No doubt they imagined a better result than reality delivered.
It was only when things started falling down the SRA started getting involved. It didn't take long for Princess to look like a dead duck.

I'd sooner travel for 16 hours on a pacer than suffer an overcrowded Voyager with a smelly toilet. At least I can observe my fellow passengers and enjoy the scenery on a bench seat pacer.

 

[Zoe]

Brave new world if privatisation and all that... No doubt they imagined a better result than reality delivered.

How could a better result have been possible though when limited to 4/5 car Voyagers? I would have though anyone working at OPRAF would have seen that it was impossible and so not accepted the bid.