ScotRail 47/7 - Coaching Stock

[03_179]

Morning all,

A little Historical help if you please.

I made a few trips to the Edinburgh/Glasgow Push/Pulls in 1987. I went again in 1989 (inc an 47/7 Aberdeen train).

I searched on here and found this topic and it gave me some of the information. https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/47-7-push-pulls.129282/

Can anyone give me a month and year that the MkIIIs began being used on the Edinburgh/Glasgow and the Aberdeen trains please?

And/or when the MkIIs ere phased out?

Thanks in advance,

 

[Sun Chariot]

The 47/7s were converted during 1979 and into early 1980.
My grey cells vaguely recall seeing photos of Edinburgh and Glasgow push pull services in "Modern Railways" magazine, latter 1979 or early 1980. So possibly introduced for winter 1979-80 timetable.
The date for 47/7s on Aberdeen services, I do not know; but a quick Internet search suggests during 1985.

 

[hexagon789]

Morning all,

A little Historical help if you please.

I made a few trips to the Edinburgh/Glasgow Push/Pulls in 1987. I went again in 1989 (inc an 47/7 Aberdeen train).

I searched on here and found this topic and it gave me some of the information. https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/47-7-push-pulls.129282/

Can anyone give me a month and year that the MkIIIs began being used on the Edinburgh/Glasgow and the Aberdeen trains please?

And/or when the MkIIs ere phased out?

Thanks in advance,

The 47/7 + Mk3 sets were phased in during 1979 (from September onwards IIRC), but the 27 + Mk2 sets lasted until about April 1980.

One set of Mk2s was retained by the ScR, this was later paired with a DBSO and used as a spare set on a variety of duties through the 1980s. Such as Glasgow-Perth, Edinburgh-Perth, the low-cost "Jacobite" and in later years as a hot spare.

One Mk3 set had a Mk1 RMB inserted and was used on a Glasgow/Aberdeen diagram (2 workings each way) as early as May 1980.

The date for 47/7s on Aberdeen services, I do not know; but a quick Internet search suggests during 1985.

The first diagram was in 1980, but full conversion of Glasgow/Aberdeen to push-pull was done in the May 1985 timetable change with 3 air-con Mk2 sets being made up with a DBSO (the Mk3 diagram remained).

In May 1986, Edinburgh/Aberdeen was converted to push-pull with a 4th Mk2 air-con set made up, for a brief period a mixed Mk3/Mk2 set appeared pending reliverying further Mk2s into ScotRail.

There were only 2 ScotRail Edinburgh/Aberdeen services each way back then, the rest were all provided by InterCity.

In 1988, the Edinburgh/Aberdeen services were officially changed to 47/4 from 47/7, but would still be push-pull worked if a suitable loco was available.

 

[SuspectUsual]

My grey cells vaguely recall seeing photos of Edinburgh and Glasgow push pull services in "Modern Railways" magazine, latter 1979 or early 1980. So possibly introduced for winter 1979-80 timetable

The 47/7 + Mk3 sets were phased in during 1979 (from September onwards IIRC)

I'd need to check with my dad (and hope he remembers) but I'm 95% sure we had a few days in Scotland in October half term 1979 and went to look for some 47/7 action. Probably the only time in my life I've sought out a 47 to be fair. My memory is we saw one at Waverley and a second sitting on Haymarket as we went past

 

[hexagon789]

I'd need to check with my dad (and hope he remembers) but I'm 95% sure we had a few days in Scotland in October half term 1979 and went to look for some 47/7 action. Probably the only time in my life I've sought out a 47 to be fair. My memory is we saw one at Waverley and a second sitting on Haymarket as we went past

Just before being introduced on the Edinburgh & Glasgow express service, 701-703 made appearances on other duties in Scotland including use on the Highland Main Line.

Otherwise, at this time period, there were normally five diagrams - four for off-peak workings, one which did a peak extra and then stood at Eastfield as a hot spare all day. A sixth set was the cyclic maintenance. Any remaining vehicles after that were just "loose".

By October there were definitely Mk3 push-pull sets in traffic though, there are photos about, but probably still in a minority.

The Mk3s the ScR received were the oldest or most troublesome the LMR had, and there were many faults and issues with them that took time to fix, hence poor availability in the first year and the retention of the 27/Mk2 sets longer than initially intended.

 

[Transilien]

Does anyone know what happened to these mk3s after they were replaced by the 158s?

 

[hexagon789]

Does anyone know what happened to these mk3s after they were replaced by the 158s?

Went back to the West Coast.

They were actually initially replaced by 156s, as the 158s weren't ready yet.

 

[Transilien]

They were actually initially replaced by 156s, as the 158s weren't ready yet

Mk3 to class 156 is a pretty big downgrade! I always have wondered how Glasgow-Edinburgh survived with 2 carriage trains.

Went back to the West Coast.

It’s funny to think that the mk3s would return to internal Scottish services after 30 years!

 

[hexagon789]

Mk3 to class 156 is a pretty big downgrade! I always have wondered how Glasgow-Edinburgh survived with 2 carriage trains.

They were mostly run as 4s and 6s, Glasgow-Aberdeen tended to get single units.

It’s funny to think that the mk3s would return to internal Scottish services after 30 years!

Though HST trailers rather than loco-hauled Mk3A, but ironically HSTs had originally been intended for Scottish internal services - a small number for Edinburgh-Glasgow (The TransPennine corridor had been due some as well), before the number of sets was curtailed at 95 instead of BR's originally planned number.

HSTs did operate some internal Edinburgh/Glasgow and Edinburgh/Aberdeen workings, as part of ECML diagrams.

There was even a Sundays Aberdeen-Glasgow QS, Glasgow QS-London KX working on Sundays in 1985.

 

[Fleetwood Boy]

They were mostly run as 4s and 6s, Glasgow-Aberdeen tended to get single units.



Though HST trailers rather than loco-hauled Mk3A, but ironically HSTs had originally been intended for Scottish internal services - a small number for Edinburgh-Glasgow (The TransPennine corridor had been due some as well), before the number of sets was curtailed at 95 instead of BR's originally planned number.

HSTs did operate some internal Edinburgh/Glasgow and Edinburgh/Aberdeen workings, as part of ECML diagrams.

There was even a Sundays Aberdeen-Glasgow QS, Glasgow QS-London KX working on Sundays in 1985.

I seem to remember a HST working Queen Street to London via Edinburgh on a Sunday in about 1990? Is that right or a false memory?

 

[Mag_seven]

I seem to remember a HST working Queen Street to London via Edinburgh on a Sunday in about 1990? Is that right or a false memory?

There were Queen St - London KX workings in the mid 80s. Don't know about 1990 though.

 

[Magdalia]

Can anyone give me a month and year that the MkIIIs began being used on the Edinburgh/Glasgow and the Aberdeen trains please?

There is more information here from a discussion earlier this year:

Glasgow-Edinburgh 47/7 and pp set diagrams - 1980

Hi all. I am aware there are several threads worth of discussion about this route in general, but can't find the answer to that which I refer now, so would welcome comments from those with a better memory than I; Given the shortish length of route and the 47/7's having had a second fuel tank...

www.railforums.co.uk

 

[SuspectUsual]

The Mk3s the ScR received were the oldest or most troublesome the LMR had, and there were many faults and issues with them that took time to fix, hence poor availability in the first year and the retention of the 27/Mk2 sets longer than initially intended.

Oldest - probably yes

Most troublesome - not so sure, as they were sequentially numbered weren’t they? (Or were they renumbered once they got to Scotland?)

 

[hexagon789]

I seem to remember a HST working Queen Street to London via Edinburgh on a Sunday in about 1990? Is that right or a false memory?

No that's correct, they stopped after ECML electrification and were effectively diverted to GlasgowCentral cia Carstairs instead.

There was also a summer working to Scarborough and from 1988 the Cornishman to/from Penzance each way, as well as the London workings.

I'd need to check timetables to see whether they were still operating in 1990, they definitely were in 1989.

There were Queen St - London KX workings in the mid 80s. Don't know about 1990 though.

The earliest such working began in 1981, a Sundays only Glasgow QS - London King's Cross, provided because of the decision to extend the Sunday engineering possession time on the northern WCML.

As for 1990, I'll need to double check that year.

Oldest - probably yes

Most troublesome - not so sure, as they were sequentially numbered weren’t they? (Or were they renumbered once they got to Scotland?)

I was told they were among the most troublesome, mostly because they were the earliest.

I did read a list of the issues, bear with me.

 

[theblackwatch]

They were mostly run as 4s and 6s, Glasgow-Aberdeen tended to get single units.



Though HST trailers rather than loco-hauled Mk3A, but ironically HSTs had originally been intended for Scottish internal services - a small number for Edinburgh-Glasgow (The TransPennine corridor had been due some as well), before the number of sets was curtailed at 95 instead of BR's originally planned number.

HSTs did operate some internal Edinburgh/Glasgow and Edinburgh/Aberdeen workings, as part of ECML diagrams.

There was even a Sundays Aberdeen-Glasgow QS, Glasgow QS-London KX working on Sundays in 1985.

Mk.3a vehicles also returned to Scotland for internal work on the North Berwick route. I don't have a list of the coaches to hand but I think one or two of the original E&G vehicles were involved.

 

[hexagon789]

Mk.3a vehicles also returned to Scotland for internal work on the North Berwick route. I don't have a list of the coaches to hand but I think one or two of the original E&G vehicles were involved.

Good point, forgot about that.

5+DVT I think it was? All TSOs.

 

[sprinterguy]

Mk.3a vehicles also returned to Scotland for internal work on the North Berwick route. I don't have a list of the coaches to hand but I think one or two of the original E&G vehicles were involved.

Yeah, 12004, 005, 014 and 019 in those sets were former E&G vehicles.

Good point, forgot about that.

5+DVT I think it was? All TSOs.

Five sets of four coaches each.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 24 Sep 2025 ==

Oldest - probably yes

Most troublesome - not so sure, as they were sequentially numbered weren’t they? (Or were they renumbered once they got to Scotland?)

Nearly all sequentially numbered:

As well as 11005-10, Scotrail had 11022 (Subsequently reseated and renumbered as Composites in the 119xx series). And of the Scotrail vehicles in the range 12004-031, 12009/10 stayed with the West Coast operation.

 

[theblackwatch]

Yeah, 12004, 005, 014 and 019 in those sets were former E&G vehicles.

Thanks, I have also found some formations now and note that 12172, which was previously CO 11922, was also one of the coaches used on the North Berwick services.

 

[hexagon789]

Five sets of four coaches each.

Yes, sorry. Five vehicles in total.

As well as 11005-10, Scotrail had 11022 (Subsequently reseated and renumbered as Composites in the 119xx series). And of the Scotrail vehicles in the range 12004-031, 12009/10 stayed with the West Coast operation.

Originally:

Open Firsts 11004 - 10

11004 was written off from the Polmont crash, replaced by 11022

All 7 were converted to Composites 11905-11910 and 11922 in 1986.


Open Seconds 12004 – 12031

12006 was also written off after Polmont and replaced with 12051

12018 was destroyed by arson at Glasgow Works in the late 1981 and replaced by Mk2F FO 3284.