Scotish Bus Group Profit and Loss Makers

[Simon75]

How did the Scottish Bus Group (SBG) do Profit/Loss wise in comparison to the National Bus Company (NBC)

 

[DunsBus]

Up until deregulation Central SMT/Scottish was said to be the most profitable company in the group. Its profits effectively bankrolled the SBG.

 

[scosutsut]

Up until deregulation Central SMT/Scottish was said to be the most profitable company in the group. Its profits effectively bankrolled the SBG.

Indeed but they left were a shadow of their former selves.

Kelvin Central sold to employees for £1 in 1991 and had a £1.5m, 10 year, interest free loan to pay off of SBG era debt.

SB Holdings bought them in 1994 for £11.1m after Stagecoach offered £10m.

Their results prior to that (1993) was a £1.4m loss with an asset book totalling £8.4m.

The Traffic Commissioner was unimpressed with maintenance at that point, they picked up a formal warning for it in 1994 and their operators license was only renewed for 1 year instead of 5.

Source: https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/media/5a7cd9cee5274a2ae6eeb28c/2829.pdf

 

[JKP]

Highland Omnibuses was the biggest financial drain and Central the best performer in its time.

 

[Metal Mickey]

Prior to the 1985 reorganisation of SBG, I believe it was Central, Fife and Eastern that made up the top 3.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 23 Sep 2025 ==

Indeed but they left were a shadow of their former selves.

Kelvin Central sold to employees for £1 in 1991 and had a £1.5m, 10 year, interest free loan to pay off of SBG era debt.

SB Holdings bought them in 1994 for £11.1m after Stagecoach offered £10m.

Their results prior to that (1993) was a £1.4m loss with an asset book totalling £8.4m.

The Traffic Commissioner was unimpressed with maintenance at that point, they picked up a formal warning for it in 1994 and their operators license was only renewed for 1 year instead of 5.

Source: https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/media/5a7cd9cee5274a2ae6eeb28c/2829.pdf

I remember KCB’s fleet improved quite significantly following the SBH takeover.

 

[smtglasgow]

Prior to the 1985 reorganisation of SBG, I believe it was Central, Fife and Eastern that made up the top 3.

That makes sense. I was wondering about Western, but their decent operations around Glasgow and Inverclyde were balanced by all the rural stuff in Dumfries & Galloway.

I was too young to witness deregulation, but I’ve often wondered about how the various SBG companies around Glasgow seemed to get it so wrong, and what Strathclyde Buses did right. Although seeing pictures of Central/Clydeside running competitive cross-city services with high floor Leopards sort of answers that question.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

The NAO reporting on the privatisation https://webarchive.nationalarchives...14/2018/11/Sale-of-the-Scottish-Bus-Group.pdf

I was too young to witness deregulation, but I’ve often wondered about how the various SBG companies around Glasgow seemed to get it so wrong, and what Strathclyde Buses did right. Although seeing pictures of Central/Clydeside running competitive cross-city services with high floor Leopards sort of answers that question.

In the period before privatisation, the best performing was Fife followed by Eastern and Midland. Western Clydeside was a loss maker, whilst Kelvin Central was a huge loss maker on account of a) competition with Strathclyde with higher costs (crew ops) and the power of the incumbent b) influx of new competitors in its Lanarkshire heartland and c) the highly damaging strike.

 

[overthewater]

It funny that Eastern was claimed to be profitable unless it went down hill fast until Grampian brought them in out in 94?

 

[Metal Mickey]

It funny that Eastern was claimed to be profitable unless it went down hill fast until Grampian brought them in out in 94?

From 2001/02 is when it really began to go downhill following the short lived bus war between First Edinburgh and Lothian. Although that’s well after SBG ownership.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

It funny that Eastern was claimed to be profitable unless it went down hill fast until Grampian brought them in out in 94?

It wasn't claimed - it is a matter of record. It also recorded a profit of c.£1m p.a. in both 1993/4 and 1994/5. It was doing ok in terms of trading though it did have a backlog (as did many firms) on fleet replacement though it had started with new Metroriders and B10Bs. Had it not embarked on the ruinous 2001 bus war, one wonders whether First wouldn't still have a decent operation in the Lothians?

 

[overthewater]

Had it not embarked on the ruinous 2001 bus war, one wonders whether First wouldn't still have a decent operation in the Lothians?
I would say so, First were so blind they give up Penuick and they also just throw away Wester hails and Restalrig. Then Lothian come in and was able to grab everyone. I heard reports that the Darts on the No22 by First were doing full journey in around 40mins.
.

 

[DunsBus]

Had it not embarked on the ruinous 2001 bus war, one wonders whether First wouldn't still have a decent operation in the Lothians?
I would say so, First were so blind they give up Penuick and they also just throw away Wester hails and Restalrig. Then Lothian come in and was able to grab everyone. I heard reports that the Darts on the No22 by First were doing full journey in around 40mins.
.

SMT was closed down by First within 18 months of the GRT takeover, with operations being split between Lowland and Midland Bluebird. It was retained as a fleetname for buses operating from the relevant depots until 1999.
When FifeFirst started in 1997, it was run on the Lowland O-licence from the ex-SMT depot at Westfield, by then owned by Midland Bluebird, to avoid falling foul of the MMC.

 

[tbtc]

Had it not embarked on the ruinous 2001 bus war, one wonders whether First wouldn't still have a decent operation in the Lothians?

Absolutely

First had an established set of corridors, Lothian had enough on their plate (still running Atlantans into the 21st century, quite late to invest in low floor buses), if First hadn't bet the farm in 2001 I doubt Lothian were eager to fight

And, if they'd kept an Edinburgh network then they'd not have had to throw the towel in in Dalkeith/ Musselburgh/ Livingston etc (even if they did eventually give up the rural Borders stuff)

It seemed a good network, the 44/86/129/C3/C55 etc were long established, there was really no need for them to risk everything like they did. An unforced error, as sports commentators would say

I was too young to witness deregulation, but I’ve often wondered about how the various SBG companies around Glasgow seemed to get it so wrong, and what Strathclyde Buses did right

Some UK cities saw the "out of town" firm win chunks of the urban network, or even be merged with them (lots of municipals became part of the same group as the rural firms), some places saw very minimal competition (Dundee), it's hard to know what a good benchmark is (maybe Aberdeen, where Northern had a long established "city" operation that exists alongside the ex-GRT routes?) but I'd consider the following

Eastern Scottish succeeded in Edinburgh for a long time because they were the only competitor to LRT (Fife/ Lowland/ Midland focused on their own patches, rather than muscling in on the big city), so there was one coordinated alternative to the incumbent

The new Eastern services wholly within the city complemented the existing longer distance ones, e.g. Brunstane passengers had the same "green buses" doing the local C3 into town (later C2) as ran the services from Wallyford etc so might have been more likely to recognise/trust them (same with the 86 to Corstorphine, alongside 'green' buses to West Lothian)

In contrast, Glasgow had a messy combination of SBG firms, overlappping, getting in each others way, a myriad of colours. There were some coordinated tickets but I don't remember any coordinated publicity for SBG services (other than things the PTE produced with all operators)

Eastern also had the 'luxury' of only one real competitor in Dalkeith/ Musselburgh etc. They didn't have to deal with dozens of independents chucking breadvans on their turf as we saw in Airdrie/ Greenock etc. So SBG firms in the west had enough problems defending their bread and butter operations, meaning less focus on fighting with Strathclyde in Glasgow

Whilst the initial Eastern network was mainly run by conventional buses on fairly conventional routes, the success of the CitySprinter C5 in penetrating schemes encouraged them to invest in more minibuses, getting into places the maroon Atlantans couldn't touch - the Central/ Clydeside/ Kelvin Leopards etc didn't offer anything that Strathclyde weren't - in fact, Strathclyde seemed the ones investing in minibuses (there was something about 'group' fares on some, maybe they saw taxis as bigger competitiion?)

I don't know the pre-86 network in Glasgow but one of my suspicions is that Edinburgh's network at the time made it easy for a competitor to provide an attractive alternative. For example, in Lochend there was the 34/35 to the Bridges or the 42/46 to the Mound (each every twelve or fifteen minutes?). Eastern arrived with their C5, giving one simple service along Princes Street every five minutes, much easier for knowing where to go for your bus home. Certain Edinburgh streets didn't have a great service to where passengers might have preferred (Easter Road had the 1/6, but that took passengers up the Royal Mile - a gap Eastern exploited with their C55 to Princes Street). Maybe the more compact grid meant that Strathclyde penetrated central Glasgow well enough so that there wasn't a gap in the market for competition

Even though Eastern are long gone, some of their innovatiions can still be seen (the 8 in Craigour is a link introduced by the C11, the 37 to Pennywell is a link introduced by the C11, the diverted 1 along London Road is because of the C55 I mentioned above etc). What evidence is there in Glasgow of anything that Central/ Clydeside/ Kelvin introduced? Nothing seems to have any legacy (just a handful of Lanarkshire - Glasgow services that existed before 1986)

 

[ajrm]

Fife was historically a very strong performer, one of the reasons that Stagecoach fought so hard to buy it at privatisation.

I've heard it suggested—I have no figures to back this up—that the 19 to Ballingry was the most profitable service in the whole of SBG (this seems plausible as it went through lots of good bus operating territory), and that Fife's Anstruther depot was the most profitable in the whole group as it had no dead mileage (every duty started and finished at the depot). The second one sounds more like bothy wisdom but you never know...

 

[scosutsut]

I remember KCB’s fleet improved quite significantly following the SBH takeover.

Yeah they went on an long overdue spree, much to my delight at the time.

I've said it before, it would have been really interesting if SB Holdings had stood firm in the face of offers. I'd imagine it would be a totally different operation to what it is now if it had.

But you are a driver-owner at the time and you are offered ~3 years salary to keep your job but just not own the company any more. I can see why that was compelling.

I am rambling off topic though so will self correct. I very much doubt Kelvin Central would be anywhere near the top of the list as Kelvin was battered from it's Glasgow bus war and Central from the strikes.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

I very much doubt Kelvin Central would be anywhere near the top of the list as Kelvin was battered from it's Glasgow bus war and Central from the strikes.

As the NAO report that I referenced stated, it was a huge loss maker.

 

[scosutsut]

As the NAO report that I referenced stated, it was a huge loss maker.

Apologies, I didn't click that link. That's an excellent document (not just for the personal validation)

 

[GusB]

Here are the profit/(loss) figures (x£1000) from the National Audit Office report:

	1988	1989	1990	1991
Lowland	673	685	240 +	-
Citylink	923	394	(800) +	-
Midland	1176	1090	166 +	-
Eastern	1546	1007	192 +	-
Kelvin Central	510	(3515)	(4055) *#	-
Northern	790	(45)	203 *#	32 +
Strathtay	536	217	(91) *#	447 +
Fife	1591	1387	1263 *	(304) +
Highland	353	(123)	(377) *	(304) +
Western Clydeside	905	(566)	(2465) *#	(922) +
Totals	9083	531	(5724)	(647) +

+ indicates part-year figures before sale
* indicates companies still in SBG ownership by the end of 1990
# indicates unaudited full year figures

I'd be interested to see the figures in the few years running up to this period to see how they compare.

Looking at the numbers for the companies local to me (Northern and Highland), the 1989 losses seem to coincide with an increase in competition. The former was facing competition from Alexander's North East (started up in 1988) and Grampian Transport, while the latter had to deal with Inverness Traction which also started up in 1988.

While Northern's position improved, Highland's lot only got worse, especially after Stagecoach's acquisition of the Traction routes. It's a wonder that there was anything left for the SBG to sell off.

 

[DunsBus]

As I recall, one of the first things which Stagecoach did after buying Northern was to call a halt to competition in Aberdeen, Northern pulling all but two of its city routes and Grampian reverting to running within the city limits.

 

[GusB]

As I recall, one of the first things which Stagecoach did after buying Northern was to call a halt to competition in Aberdeen, Northern pulling all but two of its city routes and Grampian reverting to running within the city limits.

I'm aware that the Citybus services were cut back after the Stagecoach takeover of Northern. The two remaining routes were the 55 and the 59, as far as I remember; the former was re-numbered as route 5.

Perhaps I'm misremembering, but I'm sure that some of the competition on external routes had been eliminated by then.

 

[DunsBus]

I'm aware that the Citybus services were cut back after the Stagecoach takeover of Northern. The two remaining routes were the 55 and the 59, as far as I remember; the former was re-numbered as route 5.

Perhaps I'm misremembering, but I'm sure that some of the competition on external routes had been eliminated by then.

I think you're right. Alexander's (North East) hit financial trouble soon after it started and was bought out, I think, by Grampian.

The route swapping between Grampian and Northern which ended the competition in Aberdeen was the first of many in Scotland during that decade as, a few years later, competition in Glasgow was ended after Strathclyde was privatised; LRT and SMT (Eastern Scottish as was) traded routes in Edinburgh and West Lothian once SMT changed hands during 1994 and I remember there was also a tidying up in the Borders and Berwick at the start of 1995 after Lowland and Northumbria both passed into new ownership.

I could never understand why these were referred to as agreements, as such things were of course illegal under the 1985 Transport Act. I'd say there were more a gentleman's agreement - a shake of the hands and "you keep off our grass and we'll stay off your grass" is perhaps the best way of putting it.