Mixed gauge train formations on dual gauge tracks.

[stadler]

Is it possible for a mixed gauge train to operate on dual gauge tracks? If so has this ever happened before?

What i mean is a train where some carriages or wagons are on standard gauge bogies and other carriages or wagons are on broad gauge bogies but they are all coupled together. Or a double headed locomotive with one being standard gauge and one being broad gauge. Or a locomotive on standard gauge pulling carriages on broad gauge bogies or a locomotive on broad gauge pulling carriages on standard gauge bogies. Or even standard gauge and broad gauge multiple units coupled. So just basically any train which has a mixture of carriages or locomotives or freight wagons on two different gauge bogies but coupled and running in the same formation.

There are sections of cross border track where this is technically possible. For example on, Terespol (PL) to Brest (BY), Narva (EE) to Ivangorod (RU), Haparanda (SE) to Tornio (FI), plenty of other border crossings on the ex USSR border, possibly some on the France and Spain border, and probably many others around the world. These all have dual gauge tracks.

I am just curious whether this has ever been done before? Or if not then what prevents it if the track is dual gauge?

 

[The exile]

Happened on GWR pre 1892, didn’t it. Believed to be the cause /exacerbating factor in an accident, so banned /heavily restricted, IIRC.
The main practical problem would be the positioning of the buffers and couplings.

 

[Sir Felix Pole]

Happened on GWR pre 1892, didn’t it. Believed to be the cause /exacerbating factor in an accident, so banned /heavily restricted, IIRC.
The main practical problem would be the positioning of the buffers and couplings.

Yes, quite common on freight trains west of Truro on the former West Cornwall Rly mixed tracks. There were special 'converter' wagons to get round the coupling problem.

 

[Taunton]

Happened on GWR pre 1892, didn’t it. Believed to be the cause /exacerbating factor in an accident, so banned /heavily restricted, IIRC.
The main practical problem would be the positioning of the buffers and couplings.

The accident was at Norton Fitzwarren near Taunton in 1890, mixed gauge didn't directly cause the accident, but a standard gauge freight train arrived with a broad gauge pilot loco, which as the train needed shunting on standard gauge only tracks had to be detached; various moves were then made, seemingly these being quite regular, and then a broad gauge passenger train was inadvertently signalled into head-on collision with the standard gauge freight, on the mixed gauge main line. As the mixed gauge was done with just a third rail the colliding locomotives were slightly off-centre to one another.

Despite some references stating multiple gauge trains were banned, there were some GWR locomotives built with extremely broad buffers, and others with four buffers, to handle exactly this combination. Picture of broad buffered loco here:

19th century railway enthusiasts | One of this batch of 26 broad gauge locomotives built by Stothert, Slaughter & Co | Facebook

One of this batch of 26 broad gauge locomotives built by Stothert, Slaughter & Co. in 1865/6 was named 'SLAUGHTER' after its builder. Not what a timid passenger wants to see hauling their train into...

www.facebook.com

 

[Calthrop]

A long-standing Continental instance of this phenomenon was to be found in Denmark, at Fakse on the island of Sjaelland -- some 60 / 70 km. south of Copenhagen. There were involved, an industrial line -- serving a chalk quarry -- on the unusual gauge of 791mm; and a standard-gauge public line, under the private ownership of the Ostre Sjaellands Jernbane (I can't do the accents). The n/g industrial line came on the scene first, in the 1860s: running some 4 or 5 km. from the quarry, to the harbour of Fakse on the Baltic Sea. The standard gauge, part of the overall Danish public rail network, arrived in 1879; with a set-up coming to be, of three-rail track accommodating both gauges: from a meeting-point of the lines close by the quarry, down to the harbour.

For many decades -- reason not given, in the material which I have ! -- standard practice was for all or most s/g trains, including passenger, to be worked between the "junction" as above, and the harbour: by narrow-gauge locos of the quarry line, using a "converter" or "match" wagon between the loco and the hauled vehicles. As time went on, there came to be a greater incidence of s/g locos working through to the harbour; but up to the quarry line's closure in 1983 (surprisingly late in the day -- incidentally, quarry line was dieselised in the 1960s / 70s), some working of s/g goods wagons hauled by n/g locos continued to happen; also, sometimes s/g goods trains, hauled by an s/g loco, were banked by a n/g one, over a short stretch up the hill from the harbour !

 

[AdamWW]

Is it possible for a mixed gauge train to operate on dual gauge tracks? If so has this ever happened before?

I am just curious whether this has ever been done before? Or if not then what prevents it if the track is dual gauge?

It would be a bit challenging I think on mixed standard and Russian gauge as dual gauge track for these gauges has to be interlaced and therefore you'd have to do something about the misaligned couplers.

(I have recently been musing over how they must have shunted the train I caught recently between Romania and Moldova - it seemed unlikely that a broad gauge Moldovan shunter would be moving coaches while they were still on standard gauge bogies as they'd have to go from interlaced track to the single pair of rails shared by both gauges for the bogie exchange while coupled. Using the standard gauge Romanian train engine also seemed a bit improbably. I think the answer is that they need two shunters, one of each gauge).

However, I did in fact a few months ago watch a broad gauge shunter (albeit a road-railer) in Spain happily shunting standard gauge wagons. So there is at least a very limited example of what you were looking for, I think. It was on three-rail dual gauge track but presumably the small misalignment of couplers isn't an issue - or maybe the shunter has an offset coupling.

Of course every time a Spanish train runs through a gauge changer there is a brief period when some of the train is on one gauge and some on the other. Likewise in Switzerland at the standard to metre gauge changer in Zweisimmen, there is a very brief period where a narrow gauge engine is pushing/pulling coaches running on standard gauge.

 

[Gag Halfrunt]

(I have recently been musing over how they must have shunted the train I caught recently between Romania and Moldova - it seemed unlikely that a broad gauge Moldovan shunter would be moving coaches while they were still on standard gauge bogies as they'd have to go from interlaced track to the single pair of rails shared by both gauges for the bogie exchange while coupled. Using the standard gauge Romanian train engine also seemed a bit improbably. I think the answer is that they need two shunters, one of each gauge).

CFM have three standard gauge ChME3 locomotives at Ungheni for shunting work. They are on the roster of Chisinau depot, however, presumably because Ungheni does not have an official depot.

 

[MarcVD]

Metric gauge steam locomotives and diesel railcars hauled standard gauge wagons on a regular basis on the Belgian SNCV network, until some 50 years ago. That however happened only on 4 rail track sections, not on 3 rail ones.

 

[WAB]

The Chemin de Fer De la Baie de Somme have standard gauge track outside of the metre gauge between Noyelles (the junction with the mainline) and St Valery port. This section did have SNCF wagons over it up to the 70s, and a translator wagon was provided to allow standard gauge wagons to be hauled by metre gauge trains.

 

[Sir Felix Pole]

Somewhat different, but in the past standard gauge wagons were often delivered to freight customers on metre gauge lines in Switzerland and Austria. This was achieved by using glorifed wheel skates or more substantial 'transporter' wagons. The most famous example was to the Broc chocolate factory, but this has now been converted to standard gauge - and sadly the freight has ceased altogether.

 

[Tester]

Somewhat different, but in the past standard gauge wagons were often delivered to freight customers on metre gauge lines in Switzerland and Austria. This was achieved by using glorifed wheel skates or more substantial 'transporter' wagons. The most famous example was to the Broc chocolate factory, but this has now been converted to standard gauge - and sadly the freight has ceased altogether.

Not in the past - still a thing.

 

[Dumpton Park]

Not in the past - still a thing.

I think that's a reference specifically to the Broc factory. The branch is now standard gauge and, if GMaps streetview is to be trusted, the factory's (narrow gauge) lines haven't been upgraded and are still in situ but obviously now OOU.

Somewhat ironic really!

DP

 

[Tester]

I think that's a reference specifically to the Broc factory. The branch is now standard gauge and, if GMaps streetview is to be trusted, the factory's (narrow gauge) lines haven't been upgraded and are still in situ but obviously now OOU.

Somewhat ironic really!

DP

It reads more generally (perhaps unintentionally of course).

I can confirm the situation at Broc. There are some museum vehicles on the metre gauge track, and the overhead equipment is still extant, but nothing is going anywhere!

 

[Calthrop]

The accident was at Norton Fitzwarren near Taunton in 1890, mixed gauge didn't directly cause the accident, but a standard gauge freight train arrived with a broad gauge pilot loco, which as the train needed shunting on standard gauge only tracks had to be detached; various moves were then made, seemingly these being quite regular, and then a broad gauge passenger train was inadvertently signalled into head-on collision with the standard gauge freight, on the mixed gauge main line. As the mixed gauge was done with just a third rail the colliding locomotives were slightly off-centre to one another.

Despite some references stating multiple gauge trains were banned, there were some GWR locomotives built with extremely broad buffers, and others with four buffers, to handle exactly this combination. Picture of broad buffered loco here:

19th century railway enthusiasts | One of this batch of 26 broad gauge locomotives built by Stothert, Slaughter & Co | Facebook

One of this batch of 26 broad gauge locomotives built by Stothert, Slaughter & Co. in 1865/6 was named 'SLAUGHTER' after its builder. Not what a timid passenger wants to see hauling their train into...

www.facebook.com

Belatedly -- re content of link, and not about gauges: I love the anecdote about the broad-gauge loco built by Stothert, Slaughter & Co., and thus named Slaughter -- name later changed to Avonside -- not to reassure nervous passengers, just to fall in line with the builders' name being changed from the one to the other. Thoughts of a thread -- initiated as it happens, by me -- on "Railway History and Nostalgia" a number of years ago: subject, unfortunately-named locomotives.

 

[AdamWW]

CFM have three standard gauge ChME3 locomotives at Ungheni for shunting work. They are on the roster of Chisinau depot, however, presumably because Ungheni does not have an official depot.

Yes it was discovering they had standard gauge shunters there that made me think of it.

Somewhat different, but in the past standard gauge wagons were often delivered to freight customers on metre gauge lines in Switzerland and Austria. This was achieved by using glorifed wheel skates

I think Talgo use something similar to deliver standard gauge coaches as far as the border. Not a very good photo (taken while passing the Talgo factory) but I presume that's what's being used here.

 

[Gloster]

I think that some industrial locomotives used to be delivered with two sets of buffers at each end so that they could shunt narrow-gauge chaldron wagons. I have a feeling that this was most prevalent in the North-East. Being that these were industrial lines, I feel that it is likely that mixed-gauge ‘formations’ were shunted at times.

 

[Gag Halfrunt]

I think Talgo use something similar to deliver standard gauge coaches as far as the border.

Railadventure have a similar device called the Loco Buggy.

The protection of our environment is also one of our top priorities. We are therefore delighted that we are able to prevent countless truck journeys through our in-house transport system Loco Buggy and in this way prevent CO2 emissions. Up until now, rail vehicles with a different track gauge could only leave the factory by road. With our Loco Buggies, the way (or rail) is also now clear for narrow and broad gauge trains.

Our patented bogies are also a valuable help to vehicles using the same gauge. Reasons to use Loco Buggies include a gearbox for a local transport vehicle not designed for a long distance without intermediate stops, a non-conforming wheel profile of an export vehicle or even a wheel damaged in an accident. If a very wide vehicle was to come too close to the platform edge, we would be able to put it on Loco Buggies and bring it away from the critical profile area and enable its transport by rail.