Will First Class travel shrink more in the future?

[deltic]

It is worth noting that airlines have seen strong growth in longer distance premium class travel driven by leisure traffic while business travel declines. Certainly on ECML there does seem to be a significant amount of all day first class leisure travel which is not so apparent on the WCML.

 

[Towers]

Hot food offerings will be dependant on the various train types, and CrossCountry, EMR and TPE (Class 802s) will probably have less flexibility than LNER, Avanti and GWR. But the main thing should be being able to bring some consistency. If GWR's Pullman Dining concept has a place within the offer will be interesting - is it better to have a more consistent offer across more trains rather than a very premium offer on a handful?

A point of order; GWR’s Pullman is not a First Class product as I understand it, rather is very much a separate product for which First ticket holders get priority booking. It is of course served in the First Class coaches, but the price of a meal I believe is the same regardless of what type of ticket a diner holds. Ergo, it doesn’t really feature in a comparison of First Class products present or future - unless GBR intend to get very generous!

 

[mike57]

Certainly on ECML there does seem to be a significant amount of all day first class leisure travel which is not so apparent on the WCML.

We will happily pay a reasonable uplift on a longer leisure journey for the space, comfort and some food and a cuppa.

Hull trains 1st is OK, food offering is simple, but OK, tea is good (not a coffee drinker, so cant comment) and 1st advances usually come out around 50% or a bit more than the standard advances. Howver the last time we used LNER the price difference was more, and the tea was like paint stripper (was a couple of years ago).

1st has alwys raised a number of questions, on busy services is the loss of capacity a good thing? Does it cover its costs?, Does it make some people more likely to use the train over another mode of transport?

I dont have a problem with the idea that you pay a premium for a better experience. An open access operator like Hull Trains are probably the best guide as to how the future may look, after all they are in the business to make a profit, and they obviously feel that a 1st class offering is good business.

Personally I would continue give people the choice, but with the proviso that if 1st is massively under used then its reduced or removed.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Personally I would continue give people the choice, but with the proviso that if 1st is massively under used then its reduced or removed.

I'd add the proviso that if First Class doesn't give an increase in personal space (e.g. SWR) it should be abolished entirely. One seat fewer across the width of the train than Standard is appropriate - the single seats are a "killer app" and the only reason I upgrade when travelling alone.

Commuter operations should certainly not have it. I think I'd leave it with just GWR 80x, all Avanti services, EMR 222/80x, North TPE 80x services (but get rid on the South TPE 185s - these are really regional services with posh trains, and you'd get away with running more 3 car sets if you removed and densified 185 first to a Standard layout with 2+2 seating*), GA Norwich expresses, LNER, XC 22x and TfW Mk4s. Maybe keep it on the very long distance SWR services as 2+1 layout (so you'd need a sub fleet of 444s plus the 159s - you could even consider only having it on the Weymouth unit and not the one that comes off at Bournemouth) but not the majority of services.

* OK, they're 3m longer, but it's noticeable how much less of an issue a 3 car 195 is compared to a 3 car 185 when TPE was operating Barrow and Windermere. They're similar units with similarly low density Standard interiors, but the 195s just absorb people almost as well as 700s do. Thus, the first class in the 185 could do with being converted to Standard (not just declassified - swap the seats) and used on the more regional in nature TPE services in that form, which might remove the need for some doubling up.

 

[35B]

As for the restaurant car, it might make for a great replacement for the buffet car, and it might even reduce staff workloads since any first class passengers wanting a meal can simply show their ticket and get their complimentary food and drinks at the restaurant, but of course a potential downside is that it might make restaurant slots more limited, and first class passengers would need to be prioritised in that scenario. Curious to see how that might be managed.

That used to be standard operating procedure when proper restaurant cars ran on the ECML. If I had a first class ticket, I'd be allowed to board the restaurant car and be served; if standard, I'd be made to wait until they knew how many were dining in that sitting.

 

[Sorcerer]

That used to be standard operating procedure when proper restaurant cars ran on the ECML. If I had a first class ticket, I'd be allowed to board the restaurant car and be served; if standard, I'd be made to wait until they knew how many were dining in that sitting.

I think that's arguably the best way of going about it restaurant cars to be honest given that first class passengers will be including it in the price of their tickets. I am now also lead to wonder whether the industry would lean towards lending an entire coach out to a single restaurant car or if it would prefer to instead dedicated half of two coaches to an on-board shop in standard and a kitchen in first.

 

[mike57]

if standard, I'd be made to wait until they knew how many were dining in that sitting.

And if you were on a less busy train, and paid for a meal, you got a first class seat on a second class ticket at similar cost including the meal to the first class fare. Used to do that regularly when travelling home after working in London. Just enough time to have a pleasant meal while returning to York, and arrive home 'fed and watered' which in my single days was a bonus.

 

[Falcon1200]

Is there any need for 1st on the Edinburgh-Glasgow express services?

For the primary service linking Scotland's biggest city with its capital and seat of Government - Absolutely yes! Also for the express trains linking Scotland's other cities, which, with the 170, 385/1 and HST fleets is pretty much what Scotrail provides.

 

[Bletchleyite]

For the primary service linking Scotland's biggest city with its capital and seat of Government - Absolutely yes!

I'm not convinced. It's a commuter train making a very short journey. Capacity is the priority.

Also for the express trains linking Scotland's other cities, which, with the 170, 385/1 and HST fleets is pretty much what Scotrail provides.

I can see sense in keeping it on the Highland Mainline (nearly a 4 hour journey) and possibly also the Central Belt-Aberdeen-Inverness services, and adding it to the West Highland Line because it's money for old rope to charge American tourist coach parties for an upgrade (an actual upgrade, not the failed "pay extra to sit in a rotting 153 bike shed on the worst seats on the railway after the Fainsa Sophia" version). But beyond that it's all commuter/regional similar to Northern (or in the case of Wick etc mostly used by people who wouldn't be able to justify the extra cost of decent 1st due to the weak economy in the far north) and so I see little point.

 

[35B]

I'm not convinced. It's a commuter train making a very short journey. Capacity is the priority.

Not necessarily.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Not necessarily.

I disagree. For commuter trains it's all about capacity. It's a commuter train, not an InterCity train. It might connect two cities but that doesn't make it InterCity.

I am not convinced that the perhaps comparable-ish London-Birmingham would have first class if it wasn't for the fact that it's worked by units that also work longer distance services to be honest. Or in Chiltern's case that they are acquiring trains that have it so the cost of converting to Standard would be higher (though personally I think they indeed should convert the Mk5 1st to Standard to offset some of the capacity losses the Mk5s will result in).

 

[Falcon1200]

It might connect two cities but that doesn't make it InterCity.

The potential clientele for the service, despite its short duration, is what justifies providing First Class - And from personal experience it is actually well used! Not to to mention also that as, normally, the trains are formed by 8-coach EMU formations, overall capacity is rarely an issue.

 

[Brubulus]

As a general rule, intercity services under 45 mins shouldn't bother operating first class. For example, Southeastern High-speed doesn't and it's just about justified to not offer it, while ScotRail is just about justified to offer it on Edinburgh-Glasgow. Agree that there's basically no point in 2+2 first class, and if it's offered it should at least provide 2+1 seating.

 

[Bletchleyite]

The potential clientele for the service, despite its short duration, is what justifies providing First Class

Yet the commuter service which operates to and through what are without doubt the poshest parts of the whole UK (the medium distance Chiltern services*) have similar journey times and no first class.

Are the Scots a bit posh at times, or are the fares perhaps not enough of an uplift? (They have to be about 150% of the Standard fare as a minimum otherwise you don't cover the cost of the extra floor space taken up).

* OK, Sandbanks I think has higher house prices, but I doubt it's by much and that's not a commuter place, it's too far out for most people to daily commute, though I know there are some.

 

[35B]

I disagree. For commuter trains it's all about capacity. It's a commuter train, not an InterCity train. It might connect two cities but that doesn't make it InterCity.

I am not convinced that the perhaps comparable-ish London-Birmingham would have first class if it wasn't for the fact that it's worked by units that also work longer distance services to be honest. Or in Chiltern's case that they are acquiring trains that have it so the cost of converting to Standard would be higher (though personally I think they indeed should convert the Mk5 1st to Standard to offset some of the capacity losses the Mk5s will result in).

All 45 minute journeys are not the same. If there is the demand from people using the E&G to pay a premium, and it more than offsets the additional capacity, then it is entirely reasonable to offer it.

In just the same way, when in Australia a while ago, the shuttle flight to Canberra (also a 45 minute hop) offered what was effectively 1st class service due to the customer base. The same planes, used elsewhere, did not offer such "luxury"

 

[Falcon1200]

Are the Scots a bit posh at times, or are the fares perhaps not enough of an uplift?

As I mentioned earlier, the Edinburgh/Queen Street service links Scotland's capital, seat of Government (and major tourist destination), with Scotland's largest city (now also a major tourist destination!). Again, from personal experience the First Class is well used indicating that the demand is there.

 

[Bletchleyite]

As I mentioned earlier, the Edinburgh/Queen Street service links Scotland's capital, seat of Government (and major tourist destination), with Scotland's largest city (now also a major tourist destination!). Again, from personal experience the First Class is well used indicating that the demand is there.

I note that the First Class fares are slightly less than the classic European multiplier of 1.5 (though oddly there are no first class period returns but there are for Standard), but that does mean on a per-seat basis they are probably making less money than Standard. Make of that what you will