How could rail capacity to Gatwick Airport be increased?

[brad465]

Moderator note: Split from

Airport expansions

I am guessing Emirates does so well in the UK because it does very well serving people visiting friends and family in Australia. Lots of ex-pats in the Emirates and to a lesser extent Qatar as well. There’s also quite a few ex-pats who work in Saudi but live in Dubai or Abu Dhabi with their...

www.railforums.co.uk

Looks like GTR will need some more rolling stock if they are to get a 4tph Gatwick Express service back for this (or pull in existing stock off other routes).

 

[AlastairFraser]

Looks like GTR will need some more rolling stock if they are to get a 4tph service back for this (or pull in existing stock off other routes).

Perhaps Gatwick could work with GatEx to increase service frequency by grabbing the Great Northern 387s.

 

[camflyer]

Looks like GTR will need some more rolling stock if they are to get a 4tph service back for this (or pull in existing stock off other routes).

I thought the big problem with the Brighton Mainline was capacity so it's hard to run additional services even if they wanted to and any upgrade plans are still on indefinite hold.

 

[PGAT]

I thought the big problem with the Brighton Mainline was capacity so it's hard to run additional services even if they wanted to and any upgrade plans are still on indefinite hold.

4tph on Gatwick Express is just the same service that was ran anyway before Covid so no upgrades would be needed. And there’s plenty of opportunity to lengthen more trains to 12 cars before you need to start thinking about the infrastructure. This is all contingent on rolling stock however which would need to be found regardless

 

[MotCO]

The Telegraph is reporting that Heidi Alexander has approved the second runway at Gatwick, subject to "airport bosses setting their own targets for the proportion of passengers arriving by train, bus or coach".

I thought that rail capacity to Gatwick was more or less full - there is little scope for additional trains on the tracks, particularly from Victoria (and East Croydon). How can the number of passengers arriving by train be increased? Is there scope for an increase in east-west links, e.g. from Reading or Tonbridge?

Gatwick second runway approved as Labour overrules ‘eco-warriors’

Transport Secretary gives green light for second runway and 100,000 extra flights per year

www.telegraph.co.uk

Gatwick second runway approved as Labour overrules ‘eco-warriors’​

Transport Secretary gives green light for second runway and 100,000 extra flights per year

Labour has given the green light for Gatwick Airport to build a second runway.
Heidi Alexander, the Transport Secretary, granted permission on Sunday for the £2.2bn expansion that will see an extra 100,000 flights per year.
Her decision will be taken as further proof that the Government is overruling those opposed to the expansion of Britain’s airports, whom Ms Alexander referred to earlier this year as “eco-warriors”.
In February, Labour surprised observers by delaying the airport’s expansion, which involves a new second runway being built within its existing grounds.


At the time, Ms Alexander said Gatwick had to do more to address concerns about noise pollution, as well as settle discussions about a legally binding target to increase the proportion of passengers arriving and leaving the airport via public transport.
Those objections have now been dropped after new commitments from Gatwick’s management, The Telegraph understands.
These include airport bosses setting their own targets for the proportion of passengers arriving by train, bus or coach, instead of them being legally enforceable.
Furthermore, those aggrieved by additional noise will be able to request that Gatwick pay for triple-glazed windows.
A minority living directly underneath new flight paths, and who want to sell their homes, will also have their stamp duty met in full, together with estate agent fees up to 1 per cent of the property’s price, as well as any other reasonable moving costs such as removals and storage expenses.

‘No-brainer for growth’​

A source close to the discussions suggested it would be impractical for the Government to enforce any legally binding target.
Another said that, with Labour nationalising the railways, any future drop in train passengers to and from the airport would arguably be the Government’s fault.


Currently, Gatwick is the world’s busiest single-runway airport, with a flight taking off or landing every 55 seconds on average. While it already has a second, backup runway, this can only be used if the main runway is closed, because its location is too close.
The expansion plans approved by the Transport Secretary include rebuilding this runway 12 metres to the north, giving the legally required safety distance for it to be used together with the existing main landing strip.



A Government source said: “The Transport Secretary has cleared Gatwick expansion for take-off. With capacity constraints holding back business, trade and tourism, this is a no-brainer for growth.
“This Government has taken unprecedented steps to get this done, navigating a needlessly complex planning system, which our reforms will simplify in future. It is possible that planes could be taking off from a new full runway at Gatwick before the next general election.

“Any airport expansion must be delivered in line with our legally binding climate change commitments and meet strict environmental requirements.”
At a dinner of commercial aviation bosses earlier this year, Ms Alexander signalled that she was on their side, saying she “believes in airport expansion” and was “not some sort of flight-shaming eco-warrior”.

 

[John R]

The BBC reports that one issue is restoration of the 4tph Gatwick Express.

To achieve this target, the airport said, third parties - including the Department for Transport - would need to "support delivery of the necessary conditions and improvements required to meet this target," giving the example of reinstating the full Gatwick Express rail service.

Before the Covid-19 pandemic, the Gatwick Express ran a service of four trains per hour non-stop between the airport and London Victoria, this was reduced to two trains per hour from 2022.

Given the additional connectivity that the Elizabeth Line gives for Gatwick passengers, (I find it the easiest way when arriving at Paddington from the west), I do wonder whether a Gatwick Express is really needed at all, especially if Southern services all run to the maximum possible length.

Gatwick airport second runway approved by transport secretary

There has been strong opposition against the airport wanting to use its northern runway.

www.bbc.co.uk

 

[Topological]

Perhaps someone could look into ways to lengthen the GWR services?

As others note, getting the trains that do run to maximum length seems like an easy capacity uplift.

I am just happy to see big projects being put into action. Hopefully, Manchester will get similar policy support when the time comes (more taxiways and standing is needed, plus permission to use the 2nd runway more)

 

[AlastairFraser]

How can the number of passengers arriving by train be increased? Is there scope for an increase in east-west links, e.g. from Reading or Tonbridge?

I suspect a through service connecting Gatwick to Ashford would be popular, Ashford has good connections to a chunk of easternmost East Sussex and most of Kent.
With the North Downs Line, it's difficult to see how improvements could be made without electrification or bi-modes. I wonder how much a fleet of bi modes for the North Downs would cost (partly funded by Gatwick).

 

[Jan Mayen]

Article on BBBC News website about Gatwick Airport Expansion refers to Gatwick Express needing to revert to 4tph.

Gatwick airport second runway approved by transport secretary - BBC News

There has been strong opposition against the airport wanting to use its northern runway.

www-bbc-co-uk.cdn.ampproject.org

Extract from website:
To achieve this target, the airport said, third parties - including the Department for Transport - would need to "support delivery of the necessary conditions and improvements required to meet this target," giving the example of reinstating the full Gatwick Express rail service.

Before the Covid-19 pandemic, the Gatwick Express ran a service of four trains per hour non-stop between the airport and London Victoria, this was reduced to two trains per hour from 2022.

 

[JonathanH]

Article on BBBC News website about Gatwick Airport Expansion refers to Gatwick Express needing to revert to 4tph.

Gatwick airport second runway approved by transport secretary - BBC News

There has been strong opposition against the airport wanting to use its northern runway.

www-bbc-co-uk.cdn.ampproject.org

Let's hope not. The railway service is much more reliable without Gatwick Express taking up line space, and Southern need the units for other services. What we have with 2tph running from Victoria to Brighton is a good compromise. That part of the story appears to just be Gatwick Airport posturing for the restoration of 'its' service, rather than the view of anyone from the railway side.

 

[John R]

I suspect a through service connecting Gatwick to Ashford would be popular, Ashford has good connections to a chunk of easternmost East Sussex and most of Kent.
With the North Downs Line, it's difficult to see how improvements could be made without electrification or bi-modes. I wonder how much a fleet of bi modes for the North Downs would cost (partly funded by Gatwick).

There is one ready and waiting, and even already in GWR green.

 

[AlastairFraser]

There is one ready and waiting, and even already in GWR green.

As much as I would like the 769s to come back, I fear the DfT won't allow it!

 

[Jan Mayen]

Personally, I'd hope it does return to 4tph. It made precovid commuting so much more bearable. But I doubt it will come back.

I imagine if it did come back as a 4tph Airport only service, Network Rail would need to do some track and signalling modifications so Gatwick Express could use Platforms 5 and 6 at Gatwick. One of the advantages in the past was that the timetable was designed so there was always a train waiting in the platform.

 

[John R]

As much as I would like the 769s to come back, I fear the DfT won't allow it!

I’m inclined to agree with you, although it is probably the cheapest option.

As to increasing capacity on the London to Gatwick run, there’s a fleet of 350/2s going spare that could take up the slack of a return to a 4tph Gatwick Express operation. That could deliver 48 extra cars ph and utilise over half that fleet.

 

[Vexed]

I think it could help, Thameslinks through Gatwick can get very busy when airport travellers are combined with leisure demand to Brighton & London at weekends.

Other posts have already mentioned pathing, I don't know how much the recent Gatwick rebuild prioritises through services over terminating ones? The 9Rs that used to terminate at Gatwick never went back to that after the rebuild so I assume less/no terminating capacity?

Another issue is the units. GX units are being used on Southern and Great Northern services now so where would they come from for a service enhancement?

 

[John R]

I think it could help, Thameslinks through Gatwick can get very busy when airport travellers are combined with leisure demand to Brighton & London at weekends.

Other posts have already mentioned pathing, I don't know how much the recent Gatwick rebuild prioritises through services over terminating ones? The 9Rs that used to terminate at Gatwick never went back to that after the rebuild so I assume less/no terminating capacity?

Another issue is the units. GX units are being used on Southern and Great Northern services now so where would they come from for a service enhancement?

350/2s?

 

[AlastairFraser]

I’m inclined to agree with you, although it is probably the cheapest option.

As to increasing capacity on the London to Gatwick run, there’s a fleet of 350/2s going spare that could take up the slack of a return to a 4tph Gatwick Express operation. That could deliver 48 extra cars ph and utilise over half that fleet.

I agree that the 350/2s will be involved in the equation somehow perhaps, but not directly.
Gatwick Express/Southern already operate Class 387s and Great Northern have 26 of the non-GX/Southern 387s, GWR/Heathrow Express having the remaining 42.

A further transfer of some of the Great Northern 387s to Gatwick Express would make sense for fleet compatibility reasons, to be replaced by other EMUs (perhaps the 350/2s, given they are 110mph capable).

Anyway, let's not get too off-topic.

 

[PGAT]

Let's hope not. The railway service is much more reliable without Gatwick Express taking up line space, and Southern need the units for other services. What we have with 2tph running from Victoria to Brighton is a good compromise. That part of the story appears to just be Gatwick Airport posturing for the restoration of 'its' service, rather than the view of anyone from the railway side.

I'm not sure how you can call it a compromise it's just a reduction of the service pattern.

 

[jamieh27]

In the future maybe Gatwick Express might reinstate 4tph to Gatwick with 2tph to Brighton like it did before, thing is with Thameslink is sometimes its busy or its cancelled and Southern only does stopping services to Gatwick such as Clapham Junction and East Croydon which takes a bit longer. Stanstead and Heathrow Express run their trains at 4tph.

 

[dk1]

I would imagine that if further expansion takes place then it will definitely return to 4tph. The powers that be at Gatwick will enforce the issue of imporance to the capital for it to be anything else as they’ve done in the past. They were always extremely protective of it and totally against it being anything other than non-stop to Victoria.

 

[JonathanH]

I would imagine that if further expansion takes place then it will definitely return to 4tph.

Setting aside the point sometimes made that any additional trains through Clapham Junction need to run non stop to make the timetable work, it just isn't clear that an additional 2tph non stop from Gatwick to Victoria is the best use of capacity, or indeed the best way of capturing more users for Gatwick. It is more a status symbol for the airport.

 

[Magdalia]

Increasing capacity doesn't have to mean more frequent trains. Running longer trains is easier to do.

The 2tph Victoria-Brighton run by Gatwick Express is currently 8 cars. The quick win on capacity is to make them 12 cars.

The Southern Eastbourne/Hastings, Worthing/Littlehampton and Portsmouth/Bognor trains could all go up from 8 to 12 cars without needing more train paths.

 

[Taunton]

Gatwick Express has lost some of its relevance compared to former times. For a start Thameslink now provides a more convenient and quicker route to much of London (including me), and better links to elsewhere, and avoids the need to trek across to Victoria, which is not the most convenient of London termini. Then the flight balance at Gatwick has changed, the onetime substantial number of flights to North America, with many high-spending travellers wanting Central London, almost entirely decamped to Heathrow when they got the chance. In their place are many more cheap European flights, with travellers not interested in any so-called 'Premium Experience', and coming from a significantly wider area, again not favourable to Victoria.

Southern should be able to run full length fast services 4 times an hour, continuing onwards to the South Coast. If they stop at Clapham and East Croydon that fills a need. Of course, the dedicated unit of a generation and more ago just for Gatwick, marshalled on the rear of such services going out, and attached to the front coming back, and always one waiting at Gatwick and at Victoria, which worked faultlessly for a generation before the independent Express came along, is just beyond anyone in the rail industry to organise and manage nowadays.

 

[John R]

Increasing capacity doesn't have to mean more frequent trains. Running longer trains is easier to do.

The 2tph Victoria-Brighton run by Gatwick Express is currently 8 cars. The quick win on capacity is to make them 12 cars.

The Southern Eastbourne/Hastings, Worthing/Littlehampton and Portsmouth/Bognor trains could all go up from 8 to 12 cars without needing more train paths.

Is that an efficient use of stock though, running 12 car trains to the south coast termini which will cart lots of empty space south of Gatwick, rather than thickening up capacity north of Gatwick?

 

[Vexed]

350/2s?

Sounds annoying from a maintenance perspective unless the Siemens depot at Three Bridges can end up maintaining "normal" Desiros as well as the Desiro Cities.

I doubt the ROSCO would want to split up the 350/2 fleet. Currently looks like 5 diagrams are required so 10x387 so the 18x 350/2s in storage (according to Wikipedia) might be an almost perfect fit to fully replace GX stock, after an internal refurb. Probably 3 extra diagrams so needs 16 units in service. Maybe only 2 extra depending on interworking with Brighton services at Victoria.

I'm sure Southern/GN/Southeastern can make good use of some extra Electrostars to strengthen services

If GTR is happy for an Electrostar to cover semi frequently (I doubt they'd hit 90% reliability if the 360s are anything to go by!) it doesn't seem as bad as I initially thought.

 

[weeklycommuter]

Need to make the Bedford-Brighton, Cambridge-Brighton and Peterborough-Horsham Thameslink trains that call at Gatwick Airport 2tph all day seven days a week. Also run the 2tph Reading-Gatwick Airport service with new 8-car third rail plus battery trains.

Gatwick Express trains need to call at Clapham Junction and they need to simplify the fares between Gatwick Airport and London as recommended in the following article from Railfuture.

Railfuture | Is GatEx right for Gatwick?

Gatwick Airport served 41m passengers in 2024 and proposes expansion to 75m by 2030. Permission for this expansion is linked to achieving 54% of air passengers using public transport to access the...

www.railfuture.org.uk

The Railfuture View and Proposals
Gatwick Express should continue as a brand, but not in its present form. It should be integrated into the Southern services, all stopping at Clapham Junction. An additional all-night service should run to Victoria all week calling at East Croydon and Clapham Junction. Victoria has better onward connections than at Blackfriars.
The fares should be simplified: the premium should be withdrawn and the same fares should be applied to Gatwick Express, Southern and Thameslink services. These would be London Terminals to all Southern terminals, Blackfriars and City Thameslink; London Zone 1 for all other stations in Zone 1 (this would also apply to Oyster fares). Travelcard should be peak and off-peak fares. The loss of premium revenue would be regained by a small rise in the Thameslink fare.
Written information on ticketing should be available in the booking hall on all fares including Family Travelcards and Group tickets. TVMs should also have Italian and Spanish.
Rolling Stock: GEX stock is often used on Southern services and this should be regularised and all Southern trains should have a branded GEX stock portion. So, all services to Gatwick can be easily identified by passengers. We are of the view that these changes will increase the usage of rail enabling the target of 54% use of Public transport to be reached.
Future expansion: The existing southern services should be strengthened to 12 coaches.
Future Service increases: 2 additional services from London Victoria to Gatwick calling at Clapham Junction, additional local services for employees. A through service to Kent and a third train to Reading.

 

[Magdalia]

Is that an efficient use of stock though, running 12 car trains to the south coast termini which will cart lots of empty space south of Gatwick, rather than thickening up capacity north of Gatwick?

People from the South Coast do also fly from/to Gatwick Airport. The 12 cars only need to go to Eastbourne on the Hastings trains and Worthing on the Littlehampton trains with 8 cars on the Bognor portions.

Thameslink run 12 car trains Brighton-Bedford and Cambridge.

Need to make the Bedford-Brighton, Cambridge-Brighton and Peterborough-Horsham Thameslink trains that call at Gatwick Airport 2tph all day seven days a week.

The main constraint there is drivers. Thameslink struggle to run the existing service, especially at weekends.

 

[jamieh27]

Need to make the Bedford-Brighton, Cambridge-Brighton and Peterborough-Horsham Thameslink trains that call at Gatwick Airport 2tph all day seven days a week. Also run the 2tph Reading-Gatwick Airport service with new 8-car third rail plus battery trains.

Gatwick Express trains need to call at Clapham Junction and they need to simplify the fares between Gatwick Airport and London as recommended in the following article from Railfuture.

If Gatwick Express were to call at Clapham Junction, I think for Clapham they should make it pick up only for passengers to Gatwick and set down only for London bound as passengers can get a Southern train to London so no need to go on Gatwick Express.

 

[John R]

It’s maybe worth noting that the approved plan includes a 14% increase in flights BEFORE the 2nd runway is complete (so could happen relatively soon), and a 25% increase in total.

Also, it’s not just passengers, but the airport and airlines employs thousands of people either directly or indirectly, and then there are hotels etc. So the number of passenger journeys associated with employee travel will also increase, I would imagine pretty much in direct proportion to the increase in flights.

 

[NSE]

If Gatwick Express were to call at Clapham Junction, I think for Clapham they should make it pick up only for passengers to Gatwick and set down only for London bound as passengers can get a Southern train to London so no need to go on Gatwick Express.

A nice idea but I think unenforceable. People will cotton on they stop there and use them. Plus they’ll pull into the same platform at Clapham Junction where red express trains operate Southern service and now two tph are technically invalid. Just adds more confusion.