Ironic fine, will appeal be successful?

[triceratops]

On Thurs I travelled for work from Lewisham to X (have to obscure location for work reasons), 2 hours away. Purchased the correct fares on LNER, returning the next day. Usually I can use any card to collect the tickets at the station, but this time, got the error on machine: "To collect your ticket(s) please use the same payment card that was used for payment." I'm the model for a commercial and I can't be late, so I'm let through the barriers. All is fine until 2 minutes before I get off at X, the ticket inspector wants to issue me a fine.

I show him my booking confirmation, explain to him what happened.

Once I get to destination, the staff there try the machine again, same error message. Eventually I get the tickets printed by lady via the desk.

I've submitted my appeal. I attached my original booking confirmation, pics of the tickets that finally got printed, plus a photo of the error message on the machine.

I am fuming and to be honest quite stressed. In principle this is the most ridiculous situation. Chances of my appeal?

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 19 Sep 2025 ==

I should emphasise, this is the first time I've ever seen this message at the machine, usually I can collect with any bank card. In the past I've even paid with virtual cards (not a physical card) so had to pick up with a different card. I'm angry because I always buy my tickets, I'm a stickler for following the rules. I don't want this to go on any 'record' either, I work hard to maintain a perfect track record.

 

[KM1991]

So you couldn’t produce a valid ticket at the time you were stopped?

Penalty fare issued correctly here. Although you said were let through the gates, so you may have grounds for appeal as this could be classed as authority to travel…

 

[3rd rail land]

So you couldn’t produce a valid ticket at the time you were stopped?

Penalty fare issued correctly here. Although you said were let through the gates, so you may have grounds for appeal as this could be classed as authority to travel…

While I agree being let through the barriers probably does constitute authority to travel, the OP will need CCTV of the gateline person allowing them through for an appeal to have any chance of success on those grounds. CCTV won't have any audio so the video alone would need to make it obvious the OP was allowed through without being in possession of a valid ticket.

 

[WesternLancer]

On Thurs I travelled for work from Lewisham to X (have to obscure location for work reasons), 2 hours away. Purchased the correct fares on LNER, returning the next day. Usually I can use any card to collect the tickets at the station, but this time, got the error on machine: "To collect your ticket(s) please use the same payment card that was used for payment." I'm the model for a commercial and I can't be late, so I'm let through the barriers. All is fine until 2 minutes before I get off at X, the ticket inspector wants to issue me a fine.

I show him my booking confirmation, explain to him what happened.

Once I get to destination, the staff there try the machine again, same error message. Eventually I get the tickets printed by lady via the desk.

I've submitted my appeal. I attached my original booking confirmation, pics of the tickets that finally got printed, plus a photo of the error message on the machine.

I am fuming and to be honest quite stressed. In principle this is the most ridiculous situation. Chances of my appeal?

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 19 Sep 2025 ==

I should emphasise, this is the first time I've ever seen this message at the machine, usually I can collect with any bank card. In the past I've even paid with virtual cards (not a physical card) so had to pick up with a different card. I'm angry because I always buy my tickets, I'm a stickler for following the rules. I don't want this to go on any 'record' either, I work hard to maintain a perfect track record.

So was this a Penalty Fare?

An appeal has to be based on the penalty fare being issued incorrectly for the incident aiui.

I wonder if there is any ability to refund your original ticket?

Penalty Fare experts here will no doubt tell you what your best options are but it sounds like you have already sent in your stage one appeal so whatever you said in that is now in the system. It may be that people here can help with stage two appeal if stage one rejected.

A Penalty Fare once paid or overturned on appeal is the end of the matter. It would have no come back on your work nor employer I don’t think.

 

[6Gman]

On Thurs I travelled for work from Lewisham to X (have to obscure location for work reasons), 2 hours away. Purchased the correct fares on LNER, returning the next day. Usually I can use any card to collect the tickets at the station, but this time, got the error on machine: "To collect your ticket(s) please use the same payment card that was used for payment." I'm the model for a commercial and I can't be late, so I'm let through the barriers. All is fine until 2 minutes before I get off at X, the ticket inspector wants to issue me a fine.

I show him my booking confirmation, explain to him what happened.

Once I get to destination, the staff there try the machine again, same error message. Eventually I get the tickets printed by lady via the desk.

I've submitted my appeal. I attached my original booking confirmation, pics of the tickets that finally got printed, plus a photo of the error message on the machine.

I am fuming and to be honest quite stressed. In principle this is the most ridiculous situation. Chances of my appeal?

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 19 Sep 2025 ==

I should emphasise, this is the first time I've ever seen this message at the machine, usually I can collect with any bank card. In the past I've even paid with virtual cards (not a physical card) so had to pick up with a different card. I'm angry because I always buy my tickets, I'm a stickler for following the rules. I don't want this to go on any 'record' either, I work hard to maintain a perfect track record.

I believe Lewisham has a staffed booking office with lengthy opening hours. Was it open when you travelled?

 

[WesternLancer]

I believe Lewisham has a staffed booking office with lengthy opening hours. Was it open when you travelled?

Op maybe used contactless etc to go Lewisham King’s Cross then needed to collect Lner ticket for onward travel to station x perhaps?

Ie didn’t have a through ticket from Lewisham so would not expect to collect ticket from there.

An e ticket from King’s Cross might have been a better option

 

[30907]

Op maybe used contactless etc to go Lewisham King’s Cross then needed to collect Lner ticket for onward travel to station x perhaps?

Ie didn’t have a through ticket from Lewisham so would not expect to collect ticket from there.

An e ticket from King’s Cross might have been a better option

My guess is that the OP had a through ticket because they were claiming it back (and by implication has done so as a matter of routine).

 

[furlong]

There are some important gaps in what you have told us.

Firstly please confirm that the problem collecting tickets happened at Lewisham. If not, at which station did this happen.

Secondly, please confirm that the incident with the inspector happened on an LNER train. If not, which train company was it. (Perhaps LNER meant just that you used the LNER app but not LNER services?)

Thirdly, did you board that final train to X at Kings Cross? If not, at which station did you board it? What route did you take to get to that station where you boarded it? (I.e. if you can, please tell us everything about the journey except the station X at which you got off the train.)

Fourthly, were you handed some paperwork and what was the title on it or if there was some structured reference number what letters did that begin with? e.g. "Penalty Fare Notice" or "MG11" or "Witness Statement Receipt" or "UFN" etc.

Finally how did you purchase the tickets or were they purchased on your behalf by someone else? E.g. did you buy them using the LNER app using your own credit card? Was it paid for using a physical card or a virtual one stored in a phone wallet? What type and bank? (E.g. Barclays Visa Credit card)

The answers will help us to work out what might have happened in terms of the error message and what sort of "appeal" reasons might be available to you.

 

[Haywain]

Purchased the correct fares on LNER, returning the next day. Usually I can use any card to collect the tickets at the station, but this time, got the error on machine: "To collect your ticket(s) please use the same payment card that was used for payment."

The LNER website (and app when eTickets are not available) always require the same card to collect tickets, and this is clearly stated during the purchase process.

 

[styles]

The LNER website (and app when eTickets are not available) always require the same card to collect tickets, and this is clearly stated during the purchase process.

Possible OP paid by Google Pay, Apple Pay, or PayPal before, which can be collected by any card.

 

[Haywain]

Possible OP paid by Google Pay, Apple Pay, or PayPal before, which can be collected by any card.

The OP states that the same card was required as per the line that I quoted.

 

[styles]

The OP states that the same card was required as per the line that I quoted.

Yes, so in this latest case they paid by card on the merchant's site. But their surprise at the same card being required for collection may arise from having previously used Google Pay/Apple Pay/PayPal.

 

[island]

I think to provide any kind of useful assistance we need confirmation of:
1) What station the OP was issued their "fine" at
2) Whether this was a penalty fare, unpaid fare notice, or something else
3) Why the OP did not attempt to get their tickets printed at Lewisham's booking office

 

[triceratops]

Hey all, thanks for the replies. I didn’t get any notifications emailed so didn’t realise there were replies! Very much appreciate the help.

Answers here:

Route taken
Lewisham to London Bridge (Southeastern) - London Bridge to Euston (Tube/TFL) - Euston to Northampton (West Midlands Railway)
Fare type
Entire return trip paid through LNER (Lewisham to Northampton return)
Let through barriers
Correct, I was let through all barriers (Lewisham, London Bridge, Euston). I had to make my call time on time, as I represent my agency.
Fine location & details
'West Midlands Trains PENALTY FARE NOTICE', fine number beginning with 'PF' for £100 plus full single fare applicable £34.40. Fined just before getting off at Northampton.

My gripes & background
On reflection this weekend, I'm more angry that I was issued a fare. I've not grown up in the UK, what I learn about travel is what is presented to me via transport interfaces (nation's train websites, apps). Moved to London in 2018 and don't travel trains out of London often. Firstly it puzzles me that there are so many separate ways to purchase tickets, where in many other countries it's one nationwide issuer with one set of rules.
(1) Until today, I did not know you could collect tickets at desk - Purchasing tickets always say 'Collect tickets at machine'. Staff at Northampton station first tried the machine, same error, then took me to the desk, and even then I thought it was a special exception
(2) Inconsistencies between providers - I don't understand why previously when I bought a ticket, I could pay with any bank card (not the same bank card). Then this time I had an error. I don't pay for tickets with Apple Pay, so this time was no different to others.
(3) Second time using LNER - The first time I used LNER to purchase, my tickets came through as e-tickets. This time I had no option for e-tickets.

If someone like me, who is extremely organised, an extreme stickler for rules (I always pay for fares and ensure they are the right ones), managed to get fined then it is a problem with the system and a consumer issue.


== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 21 Sep 2025 ==

Given any recommendations, I am happy to add to my appeal via adding an extra written letter to the supporting documents function.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 21 Sep 2025 ==

I should say, at no point did any staff member help me or advise me that I could have collected at the desk, until I complained about my experience at Northampton station.

 

[MotCO]

My gripes & background
On reflection this weekend, I'm more angry that I was issued a fare. I've not grown up in the UK, what I learn about travel is what is presented to me via transport interfaces (nation's train websites, apps). Moved to London in 2018 and don't travel trains out of London often. Firstly it puzzles me that there are so many separate ways to purchase tickets, where in many other countries it's one nationwide issuer with one set of rules.
(1) Until today, I did not know you could collect tickets at desk - Purchasing tickets always say 'Collect tickets at machine'. Staff at Northampton station first tried the machine, same error, then took me to the desk, and even then I thought it was a special exception
(2) Inconsistencies between providers - I don't understand why previously when I bought a ticket, I could pay with any bank card (not the same bank card). Then this time I had an error. I don't pay for tickets with Apple Pay, so this time was no different to others.
(3) Second time using LNER - The first time I used LNER to purchase, my tickets came through as e-tickets. This time I had no option for e-tickets.

Welcome to our disjointed rail system! There are loads of inconsistencies, and some staff also make up their own 'rules'. Sometimes you can pay on board, sometimes you can't, usually for good reasons, but not necessarily easily understood by passengers. The only safe way to travel is to make sure you have a ticket for your whole journey before you board, and ensure you can collect your ticket in good time.

 

[Egg Centric]

Hey all, thanks for the replies. I didn’t get any notifications emailed so didn’t realise there were replies! Very much appreciate the help.

Answers here:

Route taken
Lewisham to London Bridge (Southeastern) - London Bridge to Euston (Tube/TFL) - Euston to Northampton (West Midlands Railway)
Fare type
Entire return trip paid through LNER (Lewisham to Northampton return)
Let through barriers
Correct, I was let through all barriers (Lewisham, London Bridge, Euston). I had to make my call time on time, as I represent my agency.
Fine location & details
'West Midlands Trains PENALTY FARE NOTICE', fine number beginning with 'PF' for £100 plus full single fare applicable £34.40. Fined just before getting off at Northampton.

My gripes & background
On reflection this weekend, I'm more angry that I was issued a fare. I've not grown up in the UK, what I learn about travel is what is presented to me via transport interfaces (nation's train websites, apps). Moved to London in 2018 and don't travel trains out of London often. Firstly it puzzles me that there are so many separate ways to purchase tickets, where in many other countries it's one nationwide issuer with one set of rules.
(1) Until today, I did not know you could collect tickets at desk - Purchasing tickets always say 'Collect tickets at machine'. Staff at Northampton station first tried the machine, same error, then took me to the desk, and even then I thought it was a special exception
(2) Inconsistencies between providers - I don't understand why previously when I bought a ticket, I could pay with any bank card (not the same bank card). Then this time I had an error. I don't pay for tickets with Apple Pay, so this time was no different to others.
(3) Second time using LNER - The first time I used LNER to purchase, my tickets came through as e-tickets. This time I had no option for e-tickets.

If someone like me, who is extremely organised, an extreme stickler for rules (I always pay for fares and ensure they are the right ones), managed to get fined then it is a problem with the system and a consumer issue.



== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 21 Sep 2025 ==

Given any recommendations, I am happy to add to my appeal via adding an extra written letter to the supporting documents function.

The moral rights and wrongs are essentially irrelevant unfortunately. The system is not customer friendly and has little incentive to be. It is what it is.

The most likely grounds of appeal are a technical one; for us to advise on whether one exists please upload the fine itself (with your name, address, and reference hidden)

 

[triceratops]

You guys are the experts! Here's the fine itself.

 

[Haywain]

(2) Inconsistencies between providers - I don't understand why previously when I bought a ticket, I could pay with any bank card (not the same bank card). Then this time I had an error. I don't pay for tickets with Apple Pay, so this time was no different to others.

This wasn't about how you could pay for the ticket but how you could collect it. LNER, unfortunately, still insist on the arcane 'same card collection' model but are clear about that in the purchase process.

(3) Second time using LNER - The first time I used LNER to purchase, my tickets came through as e-tickets. This time I had no option for e-tickets.

On this occasion a cross-London journey was onvolved and these are not available as eTickets.

Let through barriers
Correct, I was let through all barriers (Lewisham, London Bridge, Euston).

Realistocally, this was what caused the problem - if the staff at Lewisham had told you to go to the ticket office or buy another ticket you wouldn't have been issued a Penalty Fare.

 

[triceratops]

This wasn't about how you could pay for the ticket but how you could collect it. LNER, unfortunately, still insist on the arcane 'same card collection' model but are clear about that in the purchase process.

On this occasion a cross-London journey was onvolved and these are not available as eTickets.

Realistocally, this was what caused the problem - if the staff at Lewisham had told you to go to the ticket office or buy another ticket you wouldn't have been issued a Penalty Fare.

Indeed. From a consumer standpoint, I feel I've seen the same 'collect with same card' message from various providers but in practice you collect with any card.

Realistocally, this was what caused the problem - if the staff at Lewisham had told you to go to the ticket office or buy another ticket you wouldn't have been issued a Penalty Fare.

100% If any of them had told me I could collect at desk, I could have done so.

In case this thread gets removed to avoid issues - Thank you all for support so far, I'll start a new thread and take it from there.

 

[WesternLancer]

The op says they have raised this with their employer and believes it has or will be raised with the railway industry body they were undertaking work for.

I wonder if there is more chance of success if that rail industry body requests the Penalty Fare-be withdrawn by the train operator that issued it eg as a goodwill gesture?

As opposed to the formal appeal to the independent appeal assessor being successful.

@triceratops - it might be worth checking with your employer exactly what they might be doing about this. It may not be appropriate to report here in any detail about what they are doing however.

In the meantime that won’t invalidate any appeal you have lodged and is in the system I would assume.

 

[Egg Centric]

You guys are the experts! Here's the fine itself.

View attachment 188791

Unfortunately I don't see anything leaping out at me that's wrong (if the 2 minutes before Northampton thing is correct; if it were 2 minutes after Euston it would be a different matter)

 

[triceratops]

I wonder if there is more chance of success if that rail industry body requests the Penalty Fare-be withdrawn by the train operator that issued it eg as a goodwill gesture?

Let's not count on anything happening within work. The agency has said if it doesn't go through, they've said they could try providing me some kind of statement to attach to my second appeal, but they are not experienced in appeals and don't think they've spoken to client yet.

In the meantime is it best I just attach a letter as a supporting doc to my appeal? Anything that would be helpful to say?

 

[Haywain]

Let's not count on anything happening within work. The agency has said if it doesn't go through, they've said they could try providing me some kind of statement to attach to my second appeal, but they are not experienced in appeals and don't think they've spoken to client yet.

In the meantime is it best I just attach a letter as a supporting doc to my appeal? Anything that would be helpful to say?

The reality is that an appeal from you is only going to be successful if you can demonstrate that the Penalty Fare was not issued in accordance with the regulations. There is a theoretical 'compelling reasons' way of an appeal being successful, but in my opinion the possibility of bad publicity for the industry, rather than the train operator, isn't going to flll that criteria. I do not think there is any chance of you succeeding in having it withdrawn as a goodwill gesture. Whether the industry body who had contracted your agency could do that is another matter, but I wouldn't be holding my breath on that happening either.

 

[MotCO]

An appeal may be useful in buying some time, and, it used to be the case, that it precluded a criminal prosecution being brought (although I think that this is somewhat up in the air at the moment). You have nothing to lodge in submitting an appeal, but you may need to think what your 'compelling reasons' were. Maybe because the staff at Lewisham allowed you to board without question and you thought that would be applicable for the whole journey, maybe because the machine did not print the ticket and no-one advised you that the ticket office staff could help?

 

[FOH]

Unfortunately I don't see anything leaping out at me that's wrong (if the 2 minutes before Northampton thing is correct; if it were 2 minutes after Euston it would be a different matter)

Should the From not be Lewisham rather than Euston? Or would that serve only to increase the money owed?

 

[AlterEgo]

Should the From not be Lewisham rather than Euston? Or would that serve only to increase the money owed?

No. A penalty fare is specific to the journey being made on that train only.

 

[WesternLancer]

Let's not count on anything happening within work. The agency has said if it doesn't go through, they've said they could try providing me some kind of statement to attach to my second appeal, but they are not experienced in appeals and don't think they've spoken to client yet.

In the meantime is it best I just attach a letter as a supporting doc to my appeal? Anything that would be helpful to say?

The problem is I expect your agency colleagues think - like most people often do - that ‘appeal’ will mean someone looks at the case, applies a general test if what is ‘reasonable’ to what’s happened, and allows the appeal. But that’s not how these Penalty Fare appeal processes work it seems. See post 23 in that regard.

You do have my sympathy.

 

[triceratops]

The problem is I expect your agency colleagues think - like most people often do - that ‘appeal’ will mean someone looks at the case, applies a general test if what is ‘reasonable’ to what’s happened, and allows the appeal. But that’s not how these Penalty Fare appeal processes work it seems. See post 23 in that regard.

You do have my sympathy.

This is what I'm learning from responses here...

How's this?


Dear Appeal Service,

I’ve not grown up in the UK, what I learn about travel is what is presented to me via transport interfaces (websites, apps, booking confirmations). I moved to London in 2018 and don’t travel trains out of London often. It puzzles me that there are so many different ways to purchase tickets, and not one set of rules.

Here are key points:

All previous tickets collected with any bank card
I’ve always collected tickets with any bank card. I have had certain providers say you can use any bank card. Then, I’ve also experienced that where it says ‘the same card’ via certain providers and on the ticket machine, you can still use any card. This leads us to believe that you can actually use any card.

Did not know providers have different rules
Until today, I did not know that different providers (e.g. Trainline, LNER, direct from railway company, etc) have different rules. Further, I did not know that different railways in the same country have different rules.

Did not know you could collect tickets at desk
Until today, I did not know you could even collect tickets at desk, as guidance tells you to collect tickets at a machine. Staff at Northampton first tried the machine which appeared with the same error, and then guided me to the desk to print my tickets. Even then, I thought it was a special exception.

Let through barriers at Lewisham, London Bridge, and Euston
I was let through barriers without any help or warning at all 3x stations, via explaining my machine error. This leads me to believe that I should be fine for my journey with my explanation.

Let through barriers at 3x stations without any staff informing me I could collect tickets at desk or that I should purchase another ticket
Further, at all 4x barriers including at Lewisham, my point of entry, no representative of the TfL and rail system let me know that tickets could actually be collected at desk.

Return tickets paid for in advance and printed with help of staff at Northampton
My tickets were purchased in advance (costs covered), travelling for work. I had zero intention to travel illegally. At Northampton, I was finally able to print my tickets at desk via guidance of helpful staff, after they had tried the ticket machine again.

I am a stickler for rules and always travel with the correct fare. I am keen to maintain my excellent record with TfL and rail. I recognise that travelling without a printed ticket is an offence. On compassionate grounds, I would appreciate your consideration of the rail system as presented to me as the cause of this offence. I will certainly only be travelling with e-tickets in the future where possible.

I appreciate your kind consideration.

[Picture of machine error, my 2x printed/collected tickets, and booking confirmation are also attached as supporting docs]

FYI: ChatGPT wants me to do a shorter, more nicer, polite version If you're in agreement just let me know. Personally I like exact details for this situation!

 

[Haywain]

Most of that is of no relevance at all and doesn't help you at all, and it's too long. The Penalty Fare Notice (PFN) was issued for Euston to Northampton so anything that happened at Lewisham or London Bridge is of no consequence. The only relevant factor that I can see is that you say you were allowed through a barrier at Euston, although I suspect your train departed from an unbarriered platform which wouldthrowdoubton that. Your inability to collect the ticket appears to be because you were not carrying the card you booked with, not because different rules exist.

 

[Watershed]

@triceratops I think the point you have perhaps not quite appreciated (I'm not sure if anyone has clearly spelled it out) is that there are only four specific grounds on which a Penalty Fare can be appealed.

It is vital that you frame your appeal by reference to one (or more) of those grounds, if you want it to have any prospect of success.

Regulation 16(3) of the Penalty Fares Regulations sets out the four possible grounds:

(a) the penalty fare was not charged in accordance with the requirements of these Regulations;
(b) the appellant is not the person liable for the payment of the penalty fare;
(c) the appellant owns a season ticket valid for the journey in question but was not in possession of the season ticket at the time the penalty fare was charged; or
(d) there are compelling reasons why, in the particular circumstances of the case, the appellant should not be liable to pay the penalty fare.

As you can see, the fact you had already paid for your ticket isn't a direct ground of appeal. You could try to argue that it constitutes 'compelling reasons' under paragraph (d) - but that will be very much down to the discretion of the appeals panel. They are not obliged to accept it. I'm sure there are many people who appeal on that basis, and I doubt the intention is for their appeals to automatically be allowed.

Similarly, arguing that you aren't accustomed to how different train companies or retailers work also likely won't cut the mustard - the vast majority of rail passengers will be unfamiliar with those rules, but still manage to make sure they have a valid ticket before boarding. Personally speaking, I would leave that out of your appeal as I think it doesn't help your argument much.

Where you would have much better grounds for an appeal is the fact that you were allowed through the barriers. This constitutes clear evidence of permission to travel - why else would you be let through? I would make a GDPR "subject access request" to Network Rail (who manage Euston station) for a copy of the CCTV footage of you passing through the gateline. This will hopefully give credence to your account that you you spoke to a member of staff and were let through without showing a ticket.

Being given permission to travel without the ticket being in your possession means that Regulation 6(2)(d) applied:

(1) Subject to paragraph (6), a person travelling by, present on, or leaving a train ... must not be charged a penalty fare where either paragraph (2) or (3) applies.

(2) This paragraph applies if, at the time when, and at the station where, the passenger boarded the train—
...
(d) the operator of the train or the station, or a person acting or purporting to act on behalf of the operator, indicated that the passenger was, or persons generally were, permitted to travel by or be present on the train without having a travel ticket.

All of those criteria were met in your situation (as the CCTV footage will hopefully show). Therefore, WMT were not permitted to charge you with a Penalty Fare and this means you have a ground for appeal under Regulation 16(3)(a) - the PF was issued otherwise than in accordance with the Regulations.

Having looked at your PF notice, unfortunately there don't appear to be any obvious grounds for appeal based on errors in the way the notice itself has been issued. We sometimes see spurious grounds being specified, or the amount being wrong.

The other ground of appeal you might want to consider is based on the signage at Euston station not meeting the requirements of the Regulations, which would also fall within subparagraph (a) above. There have been numerous threads where this has been discussed; the best draft of such an appeal I'm aware of is here https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/stansted-airport-fines.253779/page-3#post-6421189

Similarly there could be arguments around the placement of the PF warning signage not being "readily visible" at Euston as required by Regulation 8(4). If you can go back to the station and take some picture showing where the signage is placed - in particular, any plausible routes for reaching the platform you used without passing a "readily visible" sign - that would definitely help your appeal.

It's important to note that we often see appeals accepted by the third stage appeals bodies, even where an initial or second appeal is rejected. So I would suggest persevering even if your first stage appeal doesn't succeed.

Hope that helps!