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Doncaster Sheffield Airport to reopen?

pug1

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Yeah, it isn't straightforward. Teesside is owned by the metro mayor authority (TCVA) and so it is TCVA who are on the hook for it. But Doncaster's lease is owned by Doncaster City Council so it would be that council on the hook later.

That would also give Reform some leverage- if they don't like it they can vote against it. Although as the council already own the lease...

But the £160m funding isn't coming from Doncaster council, it is coming from the SYMCA, so what Reform think about that is largely irrelevant.

I don't think Reform would actually be against the airport, though. There's a reason why the most populist mayor of the lot, Ben Houchen, is so pro-airport, even though Teesside Airport is so much of a basket case that it makes DSA look like Changi.

As with Houchen, my expectation is that Reform would just look for ways to, er, "collaboratively work" with favoured local party funders entrepreneurs.
The lease is heavily in Peels favour, it includes performance based break clauses. I don’t think they’d hold the council to account if they were to decide they wanted to cut the lease short. Peel already know it’s a non starter hence the performance targets being higher than when DSA was open previously.

I agree I think it’s a political hot potato, they’ll not want to muddy the waters by challenging it too much hence why they’re asking for greater transparency as a way of showing they’re doing ‘something’ along party lines. I do not believe SYMCA/Ros Jones actually have anything to share, it’s all based on hope and the businesses they’d like to target at the moment.
 
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ainsworth74

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There's a reason why the most populist mayor of the lot, Ben Houchen, is so pro-airport, even though Teesside Airport is so much of a basket case that it makes DSA look like Changi.
Hey now at least Teesside was manging to limp on without massive taxpayer subsidies before Mr Houchen stuck his oar in and decided to spend huge sums of public money on his election campaign an important community resource! I reckon Teesside is the Changi in this comparison not DSA! :lol:
 

pug1

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Hey now at least Teesside was manging to limp on without massive taxpayer subsidies before Mr Houchen stuck his oar in and decided to spend huge sums of public money on his election campaign an important community resource! I reckon Teesside is the Changi in this comparison not DSA! :lol:
Very fair point. Losses have only increased since he announced the ‘seismic’ news that they’d managed to get Ryanair to offer a handful of weekly flights to the usual popular holiday resorts so that the good people of Teesside could go an spend their money in those other countries.

The Amsterdam service seems to have seen a loss of passengers that hasn’t recovered fully. Bit concerning.
 

Killingworth

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Very fair point. Losses have only increased since he announced the ‘seismic’ news that they’d managed to get Ryanair to offer a handful of weekly flights to the usual popular holiday resorts so that the good people of Teesside could go an spend their money in those other countries.

The Amsterdam service seems to have seen a loss of passengers that hasn’t recovered fully. Bit concerning.
Interesting. A random spot check for a single fare to Amsterdam next Thursday, choice of 3 flights from Teesside, 6.00, 10.00, 17.40 priced for economy at £402, £342 and £342.

Same day from Newcastle, choice of 5 flights at 6.00, 9.30, 13.45, 15.40 and 17.30 priced at £392, £343, £261, £221 and £221.

If I were wanting an international hub I'd also be looking at daily direct flights from Newcastle to places like Paris, Heathrow, Dublin, Frankfurt, Copenhagen, Dubai etc to find quicker and/or cheaper routings around the globe.

Teesside and DSA both suffer from proximity to other longer established airports with much wider ranges of routes.
 

Topological

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To be fair, I am not sure the price to the hub is the relevant one. Amsterdam passengers would probably look at budget carriers.

That said, Cardiff and Bristol tend to be much more expensive hubbing through Amsterdam than Heathrow.
 

mpthomson

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Interesting. A random spot check for a single fare to Amsterdam next Thursday, choice of 3 flights from Teesside, 6.00, 10.00, 17.40 priced for economy at £402, £342 and £342.

Same day from Newcastle, choice of 5 flights at 6.00, 9.30, 13.45, 15.40 and 17.30 priced at £392, £343, £261, £221 and £221.

If I were wanting an international hub I'd also be looking at daily direct flights from Newcastle to places like Paris, Heathrow, Dublin, Frankfurt, Copenhagen, Dubai etc to find quicker and/or cheaper routings around the globe.

Teesside and DSA both suffer from proximity to other longer established airports with much wider ranges of routes.
You need to be looking at the prices for long-haul destinations with MME-AMS as the first leg, compared to say direct flights from MAN or LHR with all the travel and additional costs that creates (parking, hotels, rail tickets etc). I'd imagine the number of people choosing to fly to just Schipol via KLM from Teesside (or NCL) is very small.
 

pug1

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You need to be looking at the prices for long-haul destinations with MME-AMS as the first leg, compared to say direct flights from MAN or LHR with all the travel and additional costs that creates (parking, hotels, rail tickets etc). I'd imagine the number of people choosing to fly to just Schipol via KLM from Teesside (or NCL) is very small.
Can’t provide the stats for those airports but the most recent stats I have for the KLM HUY-AMS (albeit from a few years so) was that something like 85% of passengers are using the service to connect onto other destinations so only 15% are actually using it for the purposes of getting to Amsterdam. Of course it’s also possible to nip on a train elsewhere like Brussels pretty swiftly. Might have noticed that TUI has started selling Amsterdam city breaks by taking seats on KLM services so this number might change, but I’d expect that if successful then increased load factors would result.

Interestingly 75% of the passengers using the KLM HUY-AMS have O&Ds in the Humber region, a further 15% Lincolnshire. Only 6% hail from South Yorkshire even though Doncaster is only a 45 minute drive away.
 

Killingworth

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Article in Doncaster Free Press today "Doncaster Reform UK issue motion of “no confidence” in directly elected Labour mayor Ros Jones"

https://www.doncasterfreepress.co.u...ence-in-directly-elected-labour-mayor-5315630

By Harry Harrison
Local Democracy Reporter

Published 12th Sep 2025, 15:42 BST


Reform UK have filed a motion of no confidence in the City of Doncaster Council’s Labour mayor, Ros Jones.
The motion, proposed by Reform UK group leader Councillor Guy Aston, holds no power to remove Mayor Jones from office, nor curb her elected power.
It states Jones “misled” the public with her election pledge to reopen Doncaster Sheffield Airport (DSA) by Spring 2026, following the recent news passenger flights are unlikely to return until 2028.


Labour made the reopening of DSA the central pledge in her election campaign which saw her win a fourth consecutive term as Mayor of Doncaster.



Councillor Guy Aston has put forward the motion to council. It is seconded by his deputy, Cllr Rachel Reed.

Councillor Guy Aston has put forward the motion to council. It is seconded by his deputy, Cllr Rachel Reed. | LDRS

As a result, the Reform motion reads: “The Mayor’s repeated pledges on Doncaster Sheffield Airport have not been delivered and have misled the public as to the timescales and certainty of reopening.


“Confidence in the Mayor’s leadership has been undermined not only in respect of Doncaster Sheffield Airport but also more broadly, given the centrality of this issue to her campaign.”
Reform UK has 36 councillors on Doncaster Council, a significant majority over Labour’s 12 and the Conservatives six.

Additionally, independent councillor Mark Broadhurst was initially elected as a Reform UK councillor.

The motion states that, if approved with a majority in the chamber, then the vote will “formally record that the council has no confidence in the Mayor of Doncaster”.
It also states: “For the avoidance of doubt, that this resolution is an expression of council’s political position. It does not remove the Mayor from office, alter the Mayor’s statutory powers, or contravene the Local Government Act 2000.”


Mayor of Doncaster Ros Jones has hailed the decision to reopen Doncaster Sheffield Airport.

Mayor of Doncaster Ros Jones has hailed the decision to reopen Doncaster Sheffield Airport. | Tony Johnson
It means that in the likely event the motion is passed by the Reform UK majority, it has no effect.



A Labour Party Spokesperson said: “This is nothing more than political posturing from a group that is not serious about the future of Doncaster’s airport.
“Labour is taking the huge steps forward to reopen the airport. Reform wouldn’t commit to the airport’s future at the election and talk it down now for their own political gain.”
Mayor Jones has not issued any statement in response to the motion. However, she did issue a statement when Cllr Aston previously accused her of misleading local people over DSA.
In a statement to the LDRs, Mayor Ros Jones said: “We have always stated that there are interdependencies out of our control in relation to issues such as Airspace and Aerodrome Certification.



“We expect to see freight services commence in Summer 2026, followed by passenger flights towards the end of 2027, meaning we should see plane tickets and holidays on sale by late 2026 flying from Doncaster for the winter 2027/28 holiday season, but again this is all dependent on several factors including Gainshare decision, Airspace, Aerodrome Certification and negotiations with airlines.
“In relation to commercial passenger flights, we have been reviewing plans over the last few weeks in advance of the SYMCA Gainshare decision whilst they were carrying out additional due diligence works.
“I want our airport fully operational as soon as possible, but we must follow the correct process.”
Reform almost unseated elected mayor Ros Jones who has been the driving force behind reopening. They have a big majority on the council which makes for an interesting scenario. Their lack of confidence in her won't stop the project but indicates that even in Doncaster there is concern about viability.
 
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Killingworth

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Article in Doncaster Free Press today "Doncaster Reform UK issue motion of “no confidence” in directly elected Labour mayor Ros Jones"

https://www.doncasterfreepress.co.u...ence-in-directly-elected-labour-mayor-5315630

By Harry Harrison
Local Democracy Reporter

Reform almost unseated elected mayor Ros Jones who has been the driving force behind reopening. They have a big majority on the council which makes for an interesting scenario. Their lack of confidence in her won't stop the project but indicates that even in Doncaster there is concern about viability.
The vote of confidence was lost with 38 voting against, 14 in favour. Ros Jones said "it doesnt change a thing"

Legally it doesn't. Politically it highlights an interesting case to watch.

There is considerable popular support for cheap holiday flights from a local South Yorkshire airport, supposedly strongest in Doncaster.

In Doncaster Reform did very well in the latest polls. They have been the least enthusiastic about the airport and seem more openly prepared to challenge its viability. They must be conscious that their recent surge in popularity could be reversed if they're seen to kill off DSA which is the way others will surely play it.
 
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The vote of confidence was lost with 38 voting against, 14 in favour. Ros Jones said "it doesnt change a thing"

Legally it doesn't. Politically it highlights an interesting case to watch.

There is considerable popular support for cheap holiday flights from a local South Yorkshire airport, supposedly strongest in Doncaster.

In Doncaster Reform did very well in the latest polls. They have been the least enthusiastic about the airport and seem more openly prepared to challenge its viability. They must be conscious that their recent surge in popularity could be reversed if they're seen to kill off DSA which is the way others will surely play it.
It is to say the least unfortunate that many people refuse to be persuaded that this airport is not commercially viable so politicians feel they cannot publicly accept this reality.
 

Pegpilot

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Interesting thread and one which throws up parallels with Germany where Regional governments have long been involved in fostering local airports on vanity grounds. I used Dusseldorf Weeze around 2001 when it was recently opened, having previously been RAF Laarbruch and was struck by this big shiny terminal serving a handful of flights a day, so hardly the big local economy booster. Checking this winter's schedule, Weeze will be welcoming just 8 flight pairs on a typical day, excluding seasonal specials, primarily Ryanair flights to the sun. The parallels with Donny are striking - a former military base, reasonably close to a conurbation, but directly competing with established airports in the same region. Oh and rubbish ground links - I had to take a local train from Krefeld to Weeze and then a long taxi ride up through the woods to get to the terminal.

I fear a similar fate awaits Doncaster Sheffield. Mind you, as a glider pilot it's been great fun barreling through their former airspace since it closed !
 

YorkRailFan

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There is considerable popular support for cheap holiday flights from a local South Yorkshire airport, supposedly strongest in Doncaster.
Really? Leeds Bradford, Manchester and even East Midlands cater to leisure travelers in South Yorkshire.

Wizz, Ryanair & Jet2 all have bases at LBA, and Easyjet has a base in Manchester as well as a growing presence at LBA. I've said this before, why would any of these carriers take the leap with an airport like DSA which has already failed?

We're not talking about building an airport where there has never been an airport before, DSA was closed for a reason. The little demand it catered for is being served through the aforementioned airports and airlines.

I'm not against the proposed rail link, simply because I think the airport should be turned into housing thus giving the rail link a purpose. The airport is a waste of money and cheap housing is desperately needed.

My question to you is, what is the point in reopening the airport? There isn't some untapped demand. We do not need a Teeside Airport in South Yorkshire.

At this point, DSA is just a toy for local politicians to play with, especially in the lead up to elections. What's done is done. Its a waste of money.
 

mpthomson

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There is considerable popular support for cheap holiday flights from a local South Yorkshire airport, supposedly strongest in Doncaster.
That’s nice…

The problem is that the entire market is already covered in Doncaster and other S Yorks towns/ cities by MAN, EMA and LBA. People from Doncaster are obviously prepared to travel to those airports so from an airline point of view why would you offer something that costs you more and offers you nothing in return but increased costs? Airlines don’t care about a passenger’s journey to the airport, just that they’re prepared to make it. Clearly people from Doncaster are.

There’s a reason that airlines aren’t interested this time round…
 

Killingworth

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By pulling one paragraph from my previous post the irony of the situation is highlighted:D My previous posts will confirm my own somewhat negative view of the current proposals.

Reform swept to power in Doncaster largely on perceptions of making England great again. Of all the parties they downplayed the DSA issue that all others supported.

However on this issue they're caught in a tricky place because emotive South Yorkshire feeling is in favour of a local airport. Economics of such a proposition don't get through to the majority. It was the same with Sheffield Airport.

On this topic Reform may be preparing the way for a likely deflation of local pride. Told you so?
 

AlastairFraser

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Really? Leeds Bradford, Manchester and even East Midlands cater to leisure travelers in South Yorkshire.

Wizz, Ryanair & Jet2 all have bases at LBA, and Easyjet has a base in Manchester as well as a growing presence at LBA. I've said this before, why would any of these carriers take the leap with an airport like DSA which has already failed?

We're not talking about building an airport where there has never been an airport before, DSA was closed for a reason. The little demand it catered for is being served through the aforementioned airports and airlines.

I'm not against the proposed rail link, simply because I think the airport should be turned into housing thus giving the rail link a purpose. The airport is a waste of money and cheap housing is desperately needed.

My question to you is, what is the point in reopening the airport? There isn't some untapped demand. We do not need a Teeside Airport in South Yorkshire.

At this point, DSA is just a toy for local politicians to play with, especially in the lead up to elections. What's done is done. Its a waste of money.
Fundamentally, it's tribalism. A lot of people in the Doncaster area dislike the Leeds area (I won't go too much into what some parts of Yorkshire think of Bradford!), and if a local airport with a few flights is all they want (and funding can be leveraged to pay for it), let them!
 

pug1

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The vote of confidence was lost with 38 voting against, 14 in favour. Ros Jones said "it doesnt change a thing"

Legally it doesn't. Politically it highlights an interesting case to watch.

There is considerable popular support for cheap holiday flights from a local South Yorkshire airport, supposedly strongest in Doncaster.

In Doncaster Reform did very well in the latest polls. They have been the least enthusiastic about the airport and seem more openly prepared to challenge its viability. They must be conscious that their recent surge in popularity could be reversed if they're seen to kill off DSA which is the way others will surely play it.
I’m unsure as to whether they have the means to prevent the funding from being used on the airport. It does go before Council in November, but that’s probably just going through the motions.

I know a fair few people in Doncaster and not one supports the reopening of DSA with public money. There are of course a small number of people shouting the loudest which does give the impression that it’s unanimously supported. It seems that’s not the case I reality. Ros Jones only won the last election on a very slim majority of a few hundred, as Reform have been cautious not to throw their support behind the airport it’s safe to assume then that the people of Doncaster generally aren’t all that bothered about the airport. If Reform were able to block the airport progressing they would do and they’d be able to spin a negative on the Labour incumbent and still get away with it.

Cards on the table I think Reform are the biggest threat to this country certainly in living memory if not for a century. If reopening the airport for £160 million helps keep them at bay then go ahead and reopen it. But I’m not convinced it will, and I’m not convinced there is a demand for it to reopen in real terms and it’s likely that the decision to reopen has been swayed by disgruntled ex employees who weren’t privy to the commercial situation of the airport but nontheless have ‘aviation experience’. So clearly if they pursue the very thing Peel did (yet claim that they didn’t) I fail to see how things will somehow be different this time.
 

ainsworth74

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Fundamentally, it's tribalism. A lot of people in the Doncaster area dislike the Leeds area (I won't go too much into what some parts of Yorkshire think of Bradford!), and if a local airport with a few flights is all they want (and funding can be leveraged to pay for it), let them!
But it shouldn't be taxpayer money that is propping up such a niche pursuit. That's the critical thing here (and at Teesside). If you can make it work using only private money then sure, fill your boots and have the airport. The taxpayer however should not be investing millions in a scheme like this when there are a range of perfectly suitable airports within easy reach that provide all the necessary services one could ask for.
 

pug1

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But it shouldn't be taxpayer money that is propping up such a niche pursuit. That's the critical thing here (and at Teesside). If you can make it work using only private money then sure, fill your boots and have the airport. The taxpayer however should not be investing millions in a scheme like this when there are a range of perfectly suitable airports within easy reach that provide all the necessary services one could ask for.
Indeed, invest the tax money in access to Manchester because it has that critical mass already. Just because it’s not in Sheffield or South Yorkshire doesn’t mean it’s any less advantageous to have that connectivity nearby.
 

AlastairFraser

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But it shouldn't be taxpayer money that is propping up such a niche pursuit. That's the critical thing here (and at Teesside). If you can make it work using only private money then sure, fill your boots and have the airport. The taxpayer however should not be investing millions in a scheme like this when there are a range of perfectly suitable airports within easy reach that provide all the necessary services one could ask for.
If using taxpayer funds to prop it up has the support of the majority of Doncaster taxpayers, then sure. Unfortunately, this is the downside of democracy, sometimes financially unsound decisions are made using poor quality evidence in support (such as e.g. a recent large painted bus with a promise towards a certain health service ;)).
Indeed, invest the tax money in access to Manchester because it has that critical mass already. Just because it’s not in Sheffield or South Yorkshire doesn’t mean it’s any less advantageous to have that connectivity nearby.
How do you improve rail access to Manchester Airport from the S Yorks end by spending ringfenced S Yorks money?
The most useful link for most of S Yorks' population in terms of travel to MAN would be a rail or tram link Stockport to Man Airport, but you can't really use ringfenced South Yorks money for that.
I suppose you could also consider an hourly airport link coach from Doncaster to Man Airport via Rotherham and Sheffield, but it would need to make a big diversion via the M1 and M62 to be reasonably reliable, or gamble on the availability of the poor quality A628/A57 routes across the Peak.
 

Killingworth

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Indeed, invest the tax money in access to Manchester because it has that critical mass already. Just because it’s not in Sheffield or South Yorkshire doesn’t mean it’s any less advantageous to have that connectivity nearby.
For me completion of the A555 from the A6 has made a big difference when getting to Manchester Airport from south Sheffield. The A6 in from Whaley Bridge is now the choke point, assuming I can get across the hills via Sparrowpit on the A623. I avoid the A57 Snake and the Mottram congestion. Parking is a pain.

From north Sheffield getting to and using Woodhead has its own issues.

I've tried train with bus from Stockport.to the airport. It's quite a quick link. The bus interchange at the airport is beside the rail station. The bus interchange at Stockport looks close to the station on a map but it's quite an open trek uphill with luggage.

Back to the train? Got to get to a station in Sheffield and park. Taxi to station? Platforms 13/14 at Piccadilly!

No wonder so many use taxis all the way. The emotive and practical attraction of DSA isn't hard to understand.

But critical mass to fill a wide range of flights isn't there. Business users need multiple destinations and frequency of flights. The expectation of cheap flighrs for holidaymakers is illusory unless other public spending is cut back to subsidise them.

At which point I'd better wrap up as this is the UK Railway Forum - railways being one of the biggest drains on public finances!
 

pug1

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If using taxpayer funds to prop it up has the support of the majority of Doncaster taxpayers, then sure. Unfortunately, this is the downside of democracy, sometimes financially unsound decisions are made using poor quality evidence in support (such as e.g. a recent large painted bus with a promise towards a certain health service ;)).

How do you improve rail access to Manchester Airport from the S Yorks end by spending ringfenced S Yorks money?
The most useful link for most of S Yorks' population in terms of travel to MAN would be a rail or tram link Stockport to Man Airport, but you can't really use ringfenced South Yorks money for that.
I suppose you could also consider an hourly airport link coach from Doncaster to Man Airport via Rotherham and Sheffield, but it would need to make a big diversion via the M1 and M62 to be reasonably reliable, or gamble on the availability of the poor quality A628/A57 routes across the Peak.
You’re never going to justify the investment in just linking Sheffield up with Manchester Airport, it has to be a multi factor approach for employment and other things. I can’t think of another example in the U.K. where two major cities are connected by single carriageway roads.

I’m not suggesting it’s about spending South Yorkshire (Doncaster specifically) money, it’s about the best value in terms of investment of tax payers money.

What I’m saying is that people are making the journey anyway, there is a demand there that with improvements in time saved and reliability then it opens up even more potential. The fact that there is a national park separating them is not lost on me, but in the case of Manchester airport specifically I just find it highly unlikely that DSA could get anywhere close to bringing those service levels across to Yorkshire, and it’ll just end up in everyone being disappointed when they realise this is the case.

It’s in my interests for DSA to work, but I’m not a fan of blind faith I prefer looking at the facts and those facts are that DSA was not an attractive proposition for airlines and therefore the critical mass required to gain momentum and allow the airport to be financially self sufficient is unlikely to ever be met. It therefore makes more sense to invest into the airports that do work like Humberside and LBA and also try to think of ways to cater to the demand that does exist between South Yorks and the North West.

For DSA to work you either need to close LBA or you need to move it to Barnsley, or do both of those things.
 

edwin_m

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Cards on the table I think Reform are the biggest threat to this country certainly in living memory if not for a century. If reopening the airport for £160 million helps keep them at bay then go ahead and reopen it. But I’m not convinced it will
If it opens, proves to be unviable as most on here predict, and then closes having swallowed a lot of public money, then whoever promoted it in the first place will be the target for blame.
 

swt_passenger

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Why isn’t there a government policy on airport provision? If this is such a potential basket case, shouldn’t the DfT or CAA come out and say so?
 

Topological

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Why isn’t there a government policy on airport provision? If this is such a potential basket case, shouldn’t the DfT or CAA come out and say so?
The challenge of a government policy would be that it could be leveraged as a restriction on growth by those areas that were deemed unsuitable for an airport.

The CAA could come out with restrictions, but if there is demonstrable air space (As in Doncaster-Sheffield) then it is a politicisation of the CAA to say no. Rather like the ORR and open access requests.

There should be sensible links between South Yorkshire and Manchester by road and rail. Yes the Peak District is in the way, but if the aesthetics are so important then tunnels need to be built. Globally, we see some countries go for the tunnels and others go for ignoring the aesthetic argument.

How much is concrete anyway?

3b7cedfd06.jpg

Alt Text: Image shows two lane highway passing through mountains in Guangdong. Pillars stretch down with seemingly no end into the valley, whilst in the background the road is cut into another hill.
 

pug1

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Why isn’t there a government policy on airport provision? If this is such a potential basket case, shouldn’t the DfT or CAA come out and say so?
There’s never been a centrally controlled national airport framework in the U.K. It was considered at length from the late 1940’s through to the 1970’s when it was all but abandoned. The dismantling of BAA and privatisation of airports in the U.K. over the last 30 years had basically seen to it that there will never be a true airport framework.

Outside of the select few airports that were BAA operated (before itself was privatised) successive post war governments decided that airport provision was a matter for local authorities. It’s why in Yorkshire you have an airport in Yeadon (that was built well before the motorways but nonetheless is in a less than ideal location) and you have no airport that South Yorkshire can call its own.

Hindsight would suggest that a central Government policy of building fewer, strategically located airports might have been the better way to approach this. In Yorkshire they talked of Thorne Moor (about ten miles to the North of DSA) as one option. However the Leeds authority dismissed this proposal out of hand for various reasons.

There’s a quite excellent Whickers World piece on YouTube that shows the thoughts of the time which I will link below:


As for the CAA, they know they have lots of customers in the queue for airspace proposals. They will also be aware of how DSA 1.0 failed to achieve the level of use that justified the granting of their former airspace footprint. They will not buckle to political pressure on this. They already rejected the push to call in the ACP proposal, something the Labour Government also refused to do after they gained power. This has now been sold as a positive by those who were petitioning in favour of calling in the ACP…
 

AlastairFraser

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The challenge of a government policy would be that it could be leveraged as a restriction on growth by those areas that were deemed unsuitable for an airport.

The CAA could come out with restrictions, but if there is demonstrable air space (As in Doncaster-Sheffield) then it is a politicisation of the CAA to say no. Rather like the ORR and open access requests.

There should be sensible links between South Yorkshire and Manchester by road and rail. Yes the Peak District is in the way, but if the aesthetics are so important then tunnels need to be built. Globally, we see some countries go for the tunnels and others go for ignoring the aesthetic argument.

How much is concrete anyway?

3b7cedfd06.jpg

Alt Text: Image shows two lane highway passing through mountains in Guangdong. Pillars stretch down with seemingly no end into the valley, whilst in the background the road is cut into another hill.
A dual carriageway road and 2 track rail tunnel from Mottram to Stocksbridge with an upgraded dual carriageway Stocksbridge bypass is the answer long-term, but I doubt any government will commit to it with the price tag (unless we find some way to create a massive budget surplus in the next 20-30 years).
For me completion of the A555 from the A6 has made a big difference when getting to Manchester Airport from south Sheffield. The A6 in from Whaley Bridge is now the choke point, assuming I can get across the hills via Sparrowpit on the A623. I avoid the A57 Snake and the Mottram congestion. Parking is a pain.
Exactly, and you'd need lots of tunnelling to build a bypass from the end of the Chapel bypass at Bridgemont to the end of the A555 at High Lane. A Woodhead road and rail tunnel would be cheaper and faster, but it would cost an extortionate amount to deliver.
You’re never going to justify the investment in just linking Sheffield up with Manchester Airport, it has to be a multi factor approach for employment and other things. I can’t think of another example in the U.K. where two major cities are connected by single carriageway roads.

I’m not suggesting it’s about spending South Yorkshire (Doncaster specifically) money, it’s about the best value in terms of investment of tax payers money.

What I’m saying is that people are making the journey anyway, there is a demand there that with improvements in time saved and reliability then it opens up even more potential. The fact that there is a national park separating them is not lost on me, but in the case of Manchester airport specifically I just find it highly unlikely that DSA could get anywhere close to bringing those service levels across to Yorkshire, and it’ll just end up in everyone being disappointed when they realise this is the case.

It’s in my interests for DSA to work, but I’m not a fan of blind faith I prefer looking at the facts and those facts are that DSA was not an attractive proposition for airlines and therefore the critical mass required to gain momentum and allow the airport to be financially self sufficient is unlikely to ever be met. It therefore makes more sense to invest into the airports that do work like Humberside and LBA and also try to think of ways to cater to the demand that does exist between South Yorks and the North West.

For DSA to work you either need to close LBA or you need to move it to Barnsley, or do both of those things.
1) If you can't justify public transport improvements between Sheffield and Manchester Airport specifically, then there will continue to be strong demand for an airport in South Yorks, whether it works or not.

2) I agree that DSA will never reach Manchester levels of traffic, but if you want to make Manchester the region's main airport permanently, you need to significantly improve links somehow. Perhaps MAG could make a contribution towards improvements (given how they run MAN itself, I won't hold out hope - although links are fairly good with Stansted and EMA, relative to the size of their markets.)

3.) Maybe you are right about DSA's viability, but the demand won't go away.
Humberside has potential, I agree, with the long runway and proximity to a relatively uncongested motorway/railway with decent links, it could work for a LCC who wishes to gradually build up flights with the existing Eastern Airways/TUI business paying the base costs of the airport. Next step might be to build a railway station where the railway passes under the A18 a few minutes to the west, probably in conjunction with a large housing development (maybe a good location for a smaller new town/large village?).
I will agree to disagree on LBA, in the long term it should be shut down and turned into a housing estate and the RAF Church Fenton/Leeds East developed instead, but that's just my opinion.

4.) I'm intrigued about the Barnsley comment. Where in the Barnsley area is particularly suitable for an airport?
 

Killingworth

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3.) Maybe you are right about DSA's viability, but the demand won't go away.
Humberside has potential, I agree, with the long runway and proximity to a relatively uncongested motorway/railway with decent links, it could work for a LCC who wishes to gradually build up flights with the existing Eastern Airways/TUI business paying the base costs of the airport. Next step might be to build a railway station where the railway passes under the A18 a few minutes to the west, probably in conjunction with a large housing development (maybe a good location for a smaller new town/large village?).
When a relative worked for Smith & Nephew in Hull 30 years ago he frequently took an early hours flight from Humberside returning the same day from Amsterdam or Paris*. Small aircraft but more convenient for him than DSA would have been.

After meeting friends for a walk along the Lincolnshire Wolds recently I caught the train back to Sheffield from Barnetby. I noted a number of men in business attire arrive by taxi from the airport. Clearly there's already some interchange potential.

(Waa impressed to see two mature gentlemen recording numbers of freight wagons as they passed. They were happy.)

*Once via Aberdeen after missing his flight!
 
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pug1

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A dual carriageway road and 2 track rail tunnel from Mottram to Stocksbridge with an upgraded dual carriageway Stocksbridge bypass is the answer long-term, but I doubt any government will commit to it with the price tag (unless we find some way to create a massive budget surplus in the next 20-30 years).

Exactly, and you'd need lots of tunnelling to build a bypass from the end of the Chapel bypass at Bridgemont to the end of the A555 at High Lane. A Woodhead road and rail tunnel would be cheaper and faster, but it would cost an extortionate amount to deliver.

1) If you can't justify public transport improvements between Sheffield and Manchester Airport specifically, then there will continue to be strong demand for an airport in South Yorks, whether it works or not.

2) I agree that DSA will never reach Manchester levels of traffic, but if you want to make Manchester the region's main airport permanently, you need to significantly improve links somehow. Perhaps MAG could make a contribution towards improvements (given how they run MAN itself, I won't hold out hope - although links are fairly good with Stansted and EMA, relative to the size of their markets.)

3.) Maybe you are right about DSA's viability, but the demand won't go away.
Humberside has potential, I agree, with the long runway and proximity to a relatively uncongested motorway/railway with decent links, it could work for a LCC who wishes to gradually build up flights with the existing Eastern Airways/TUI business paying the base costs of the airport. Next step might be to build a railway station where the railway passes under the A18 a few minutes to the west, probably in conjunction with a large housing development (maybe a good location for a smaller new town/large village?).
I will agree to disagree on LBA, in the long term it should be shut down and turned into a housing estate and the RAF Church Fenton/Leeds East developed instead, but that's just my opinion.

4.) I'm intrigued about the Barnsley comment. Where in the Barnsley area is particularly suitable for an airport?
You can’t justify the building of surface access between Sheffield and Manchester Airport exclusively, but there is a justification of improving access to/from Manchester which would directly improve journey times to Manchester Airport. The two are not mutually exclusive so I fail to understand why that would result in ‘strong demand’ for an airport at DSA. There isn’t ’strong demand’ that’s why it closed, but only because there isn’t enough demand to maintain an airport the size if DSA.

So step in Humberside. A small airport with lower overheads. Far enough away from competition to provide a USP (assuming no DSA) and a justifiable investment that has a much lower cost burden where private sector investment could be sourced.

Ref. LBA, that’s not going to happen. Watch the video I posted previously. Also Leeds East is not in a good location for large scale commercial ops.

My Barnsley comment was purely a strategical location point of view. On the M1 in the middle of a catchment area of around 4 million people. Whether there is suitable land for such a venture I have no idea. But it’ll never happen in this day and age anyway.
 

AlastairFraser

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When a relative worked for Smith & Nephew in Hull 30 years ago he frequently took an early hours flight from Humberside returning the same day from Amsterdam or Paris*. Small aircraft but more convenient for him than DSA would have been.
And today it still fulfils that role, albeit with larger aircraft.
Afte .meeting friends for a walk along the Linconshire Wolds recently I caught the train back to Sheffield from Barnetby. I noted a number of men in business attire arrive by taxi from the airport. Clearly there's already some interchange potential.

(Waa impressed to see two mature gentlemen recording numbers of freight wagons as they passed. They were happy.)
Good, and hopefully the railways continue to grow that side of the business (including delivering passengers to Humberside!).
*Once via Aberdeen after missing his flight!
Crikey, that's a bit of a detour.
You can’t justify the building of surface access between Sheffield and Manchester Airport exclusively, but there is a justification of improving access to/from Manchester which would directly improve journey times to Manchester Airport.
Sure, you could improve rail/road access between Sheffield and Manchester, but that's more of a national project. SY cash shouldn't be spent on that really.
The two are not mutually exclusive so I fail to understand why that would result in ‘strong demand’ for an airport at DSA.
Because the government are unlikely to be able to afford to build a road/rail link tunnel under the Peak District pre-2050, even with tolls, and the resultant lack of connectivity will lead to stronger support for local options for international travel.
There isn’t ’strong demand’ that’s why it closed, but only because there isn’t enough demand to maintain an airport the size if DSA.
I agree that the airport is slightly too large for the realistic demand, I hope they find another operator using the runway and airport estate to subsidise it.
So step in Humberside. A small airport with lower overheads. Far enough away from competition to provide a USP (assuming no DSA) and a justifiable investment that has a much lower cost burden where private sector investment could be sourced.
Does Humberside have the population catchment to support a low cost or hybrid airline base, without some (albeit modest) transport improvements?
Ref. LBA, that’s not going to happen.
I doubt it would, they seem to be hell bent on supporting it, despite the inconvenient siting.
Watch the video I posted previously.
I had a look, it does quite clearly display a very closed mentality. That doesn't mean SY has to follow that path.
Also Leeds East is not in a good location for large scale commercial ops.
It's quite close to several motorways, very close to several mainline railways and the terrain is flat.
I know it's in a picturesque area, but it is the closest all weather airfield to the centres of population (unless I've missed one further west).
My Barnsley comment was purely a strategical location point of view. On the M1 in the middle of a catchment area of around 4 million people. Whether there is suitable land for such a venture I have no idea. But it’ll never happen in this day and age anyway.
Fair enough. I don't think there's enough flat land for it anyway, so it could never happen.
 

Killingworth

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Meanwhile BBC reports Gatwick's second runway has been approved https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c9v7rz24z23o

Fairly easily reached by rail from the north and offering a wide range of destinations and flights - but concentrating more ground and air congestion in the south-east.

Gatwick second runway plan approved by transport secretary​

Four aeroplanes line up for take off at London Gatwick Airport. In the foreground, seven sheep stand around on a bank of grass.
Image source,PA Media
ByKaty Austin , Transport correspondent and Jamie Whitehead , BBC News
Updated 1 hour ago
Transport Secretary Heidi Alexander has approved plans for a second runway at London Gatwick Airport, as the government looks for economic growth opportunities.
The £2.2bn privately-financed project involves in effect moving the current Northern Runway 12 metres to bring it into regular use, as well as other developments, including extending the size of terminals.
The airport says its plans will bring jobs and boost the local economy. But there has long been opposition from campaigners and groups worried about the impact on the surrounding area.
Gatwick currently handles about 280,000 flights a year. It says the plan would enable that number to rise to around 389,000 by the late 2030s.
A government source has described the plans as a "no-brainer for growth," adding that "it is possible that planes could be taking off from a new full runway at Gatwick before the next general election."
London Gatwick, in West Sussex, is currently Europe's busiest single-runway airport with more than 40 million passengers using it every year.
The plans approved by Ms Alexander would include adding 40,000 more flights before the second runway opens, and 70,000 more - almost 190 a day - once it is fully up and running.
The airport says that passenger numbers could rise to up to 80 million.
Currently, the Northern Runway is currently only used for taxiing or as a back up.
The second runway would be used for short haul flights, with capacity also freed up for more long-haul services from the main runway.

Map showing new position of northern runway and the new buildings proposed as part of the Gatwick development

The decision to approve the expansion plan had been expected in February, but at the time, the transport secretary only said she was "minded to grant consent" for the Northern Runway planning application.
It emerged planning inspectors had expressed concerns over the effect the proposals would have on several aspects on the area surrounding the airport, including traffic and noise.
In April, Gatwick Airport agreed to stricter noise controls, an enhanced insulation scheme for nearby residents, and having 54% of air passengers using public transport before the Northern Runway opened.
To achieve this target, the airport said, third parties - including the Department for Transport - would need to "support delivery of the necessary conditions and improvements required to meet this target," giving the example of reinstating the full Gatwick Express rail service.
Before the Covid-19 pandemic, the Gatwick Express ran a service of four trains per hour non-stop between the airport and London Victoria, this was reduced to two trains per hour from 2022.
Gatwick Airport also proposed a cars-on-the-road limit if the 54% target could not be met before the first use of the Northern Runway to address possible road congestion concerns.
It added that if neither the target nor the cars-on-the road limit could be met, the runway plans would be delayed until the required £350m of road improvements had been completed.
"This would make sure any additional road traffic flows can be accommodated and any congestion avoided," the airport said.
"This government has taken unprecedented steps to get this done, navigating a needlessly complex planning system, which our reforms will simplify in future," the government source said.
"Any airport expansion must be delivered in line with our legally binding climate change commitments and meet strict environmental requirements."
But there is strong opposition to any expansion, particularly from climate campaigners.
Following the news that that transport secretary had approved Gatwick's expansion plan, new Green Party leader Zack Polanski said it was a "disaster for the climate crisis."
Hannah Lawrence, spokesperson for Stay Grounded, said "We need an immediate end to airport expansion and money put into improving sustainable transport such as trains."
In February, Greenpeace UK policy director Douglas Parr said the extension would not drive economic growth. "The only thing it's set to boost is air pollution, noise, and climate emissions," he added.
Alex Chapman, senior economist at left-of-centre think tank New Economics Foundation, also argued the move would not create new jobs, but would just shift them from other parts of the country.
"People are already perfectly able to catch cheap flights on holiday or travel for business," he added.
Unite the Union general secretary Sharon Graham backed Gatwick having a second runway, but warned it would need "to come with guarantees of well paid, unionised jobs and proper facilities for workers".

Sally Pavey standing at her back door with her garden in the background.

Sally Pavey, chair of Communities Against Gatwick Noise Emissions (CAGNE), said she was worried about "uncontrollable noise, ramifications on the roads, decline in air quality... and climate change".
"We can't keep ignoring climate change and it would be wrong to allow a new 'bucket and spade' runway, as we put it, at the expense of residents and the economy," she said.
The group would take legal action through a judicial review if the expansion goes ahead, she added.
Gatwick's is the latest in a string of airport expansion approvals, most recently Luton's in June.
The government has also expressed support for a third runway at the country's biggest airport, Heathrow, but that would be a much more complex, costly and controversial project.
 

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