Why is Eurostar so slow between Brussels and Amsterdam?

[dancoupe22]

Currently sat on the 15:04 St Pancras to Amsterdam Eurostar service. 2 hours to Brussels mid/zuid - pretty good going. But the next leg of the trip is 2+ hours just to get to Amsterdam. We spent a good 20 mins sat at Brussels midi/zuid, and now we’re crawling through the suburbs of Brussels. Is this really the fastest route? And are there plans to speed it up?
4+ hours to Amsterdam seems unnecessarily excessive.

Question: what alternative routes exist, or which pinch points need attention to speed up this route?

Thanks

 

[nwales58]

The alternative route is by air.

The Netherlands and Belgium have built stretches of HSL (NL) and upgrading (BE). The dutch bit is slugged by ground problems currently, those may or may not be solved.

Beyond that, both countries' priorities are to continue adding serious amounts of domestic capacity. See the international forum for discussions about Brussels-Antwerpen.

 

[30907]

Currently sat on the 15:04 St Pancras to Amsterdam Eurostar service. 2 hours to Brussels mid/zuid - pretty good going. But the next leg of the trip is 2+ hours just to get to Amsterdam. We spent a good 20 mins sat at Brussels midi/zuid, and now we’re crawling through the suburbs of Brussels. Is this really the fastest route? And are there plans to speed it up?
4+ hours to Amsterdam seems unnecessarily excessive.

Question: what alternative routes exist, or which pinch points need attention to speed up this route?

Thanks

The journey from Brussels to Amsterdam is actually just under 2 hours on Eurostar, which includes (as you are finding) the slow exit through the suburbs and on a very busy route with maximum speeds of 120 then 160km/h to Antwerp. After that you are mostly on 300km/h track except through Rotterdam.
Building high-speed infrastructure through heavily urbanised country is challenging to say the least, and - as nwales58  says - not a priority.

 

[dancoupe22]

Which is a shame. For those of us trying to avoid air travel for relatively short journeys in northern Europe, these lengthy travel times certainly make it difficult to justify train travel over air. I mean, I could get 30 mins taxi to Cardiff airport, 1 hour at the airport, 1h 20 in flight, 20 mins exiting the airport, 20 mins train to Amsterdam, which makes flying twice as fast on this route. And that’s not even accounting for any delays on the rail.
I love travelling by train, and Eurostar is usually great, but this route is becoming more and more difficult to justify, time and cost wise

 

[43066]

Which is a shame. For those of us trying to avoid air travel for relatively short journeys in northern Europe, these lengthy travel times certainly make it difficult to justify train travel over air. I mean, I could get 30 mins taxi to Cardiff airport, 1 hour at the airport, 1h 20 in flight, 20 mins exiting the airport, 20 mins train to Amsterdam, which makes flying twice as fast on this route. And that’s not even accounting for any delays on the rail.
I love travelling by train, and Eurostar is usually great, but this route is becoming more and more difficult to justify, time and cost wise

London - Amsterdam by train is likely to be competitive on the basis that it will be more comfortable/pleasant (albeit a flight from city airport will likely be quicker in most cases, and quite possibly cheaper).

It’s much less likely to be competitive for journeys originating near Cardiff, but realistically Cardiff - Amsterdam is never going to be a big enough market for rail to cater for.

 

[hexagon789]

I don't really see how it can be any faster.

It has two sections of purpose-built high speed line and two sections of upgraded classic line (from 140 to 160km/h).

Before any of these upgrades, the express service between Brussels and Amsterdam was limited to 140km/h; with the geography and settlement density being what it is in that part of Europe, I think the present situation is actually quite good.

The train must be popular enough to sustain an hourly high-speed service from Paris via Brussels (half-hourly at peak times) and a half-hourly joint Dutch/Belgian sort of semi-fast service which has not long been upgraded from 160km/h loco-hauled sets to 200km/h capable EMUs, with consequential acceleration.

 

[dancoupe22]

I guess it’s the sitting (presumably) waiting for a path at midi/zuid, then the crawl through Brussles suburbs that’s most irksome. But hey ho, I asked my question, and the answer was given - it’s as fast as it can be.

 

[cle]

I thought there were both works with Mechelen and also through the Brussels tunnels to improve things.

And bear in mind, even the other high speed trains call at Antwerp and Schiphol so there is some slowdown / padding for that.

 

[stuu]

I thought there were both works with Mechelen and also through the Brussels tunnels to improve things.

And bear in mind, even the other high speed trains call at Antwerp and Schiphol so there is some slowdown / padding for that.

Mechelen got a new pair of faster lines a few years ago. I doubt there is a lot that could be done with the Brussels tunnels, they are bendy and have three intermediate stations which can't help. There must be a reason they didn't bother going with higher speeds when they did on the line to Leuven or the Liege-Aachen lines which are similar distances

 

[Mike Machin]

Travelling to Amsterdam by train only really makes sense time-wise if you are starting the UK leg of the journey close to London, but not too close to an airport. From where I live in rural Hampshire, I can be from home to actually parked-up and inside the terminal at Southampton Airport in half an hour. Maximum check-in/faffing-around time one hour, flight time one hour, getting out of the airport and into central Amsterdam one hour. In fact I have actually gone from my sofa at home to standing in the square outside Amsterdam Central Station in just over three and a half hours.

By train, it would still be half an hour from home to being on the platform at Southampton Parkway station, 70 minutes or so into Waterloo, ten minutes down to the tube, ten minutes on the tube, ten minutes to checking-in for the Eurostar, an hour or so faffing around at St Pancras and then the four hours to Amsterdam. At least around seven and a quarter hours.

By plane I can enjoy a leisurely breakfast at home and still be in Amsterdam for a convivial lunch - I've done it!

 

[Trainbike46]

The Eurostar may be sped up a little bit when the many Temporary Speed Restrictions on the Dutch HSL get lifted. There may also be scope to reduce the wait in Brussels by making the paths line up better than they do now, but who knows if and when that will happen.

As someone who has used the Eurostar to travel to the Netherlands a lot, it is a lot faster and cheaper now compared to what it was before the direct services started.

I think the main improvement we can expect in the near future will be an increase in frequencey, first to 5 tpd in December, and then further beyond that.

 

[cle]

The Eurostar may be sped up a little bit when the many Temporary Speed Restrictions on the Dutch HSL get lifted. There may also be scope to reduce the wait in Brussels by making the paths line up better than they do now, but who knows if and when that will happen.

As someone who has used the Eurostar to travel to the Netherlands a lot, it is a lot faster and cheaper now compared to what it was before the direct services started.

I think the main improvement we can expect in the near future will be an increase in frequencey, first to 5 tpd in December, and then further beyond that.

Interested to hear more here. I'd love to take this train more, but as mentioned - every airport surrounding London has AMS flights so inevitably there is a quick way for many in the home counties. As mentioned, it's best for actual London travellers (and inbound demand / tourists / return Dutch business demand etc - which is significant too). Although Schiphol is highly accessible to the whole country and people there aren't scared of taking a 5am train for a 7am flight (we would cab/drive).

By plane I can enjoy a leisurely breakfast at home and still be in Amsterdam for a convivial lunch - I've done it!

I do like how your meals are so upbeat
Tips for convivial, and moreso edible lunches in Amsterdam are always welcome.

 

[Trainbike46]

Interested to hear more here. I'd love to take this train more, but as mentioned - every airport surrounding London has AMS flights so inevitably there is a quick way for many in the home counties. As mentioned, it's best for actual London travellers (and inbound demand / tourists / return Dutch business demand etc - which is significant too). Although Schiphol is highly accessible to the whole country and people there aren't scared of taking a 5am train for a 7am flight (we would cab/drive).

This is one of the reasons why it is so important that both Rotterdam and Amsterdam are served by Eurostar - Almost all of the country has a good/quick connection with one or both of those, so for many people Eurostar is faster than flying. Travel time isn't the only consideration for people either.

The 5th train from december will be an 08:16 departure from London, on top of the current 06:16, 11:04, 15:04, and 18:04 departures. The .16 departures are 12 minutes faster than the .04 departures.

From reporting, Eurostar sees the Netherlands-London as a key growth market, so I suspect they'll increase beyond 5tpd fairly soon. NS, who provide the paths and drivers in the Netherlands, also appear keen. I don't believe there are any firm, public plans for a 6th (and more) departure yet though!

 

[RT4038]

Travelling to Amsterdam by train only really makes sense time-wise if you are starting the UK leg of the journey close to London, but not too close to an airport. From where I live in rural Hampshire, I can be from home to actually parked-up and inside the terminal at Southampton Airport in half an hour. Maximum check-in/faffing-around time one hour, flight time one hour, getting out of the airport and into central Amsterdam one hour. In fact I have actually gone from my sofa at home to standing in the square outside Amsterdam Central Station in just over three and a half hours.

By train, it would still be half an hour from home to being on the platform at Southampton Parkway station, 70 minutes or so into Waterloo, ten minutes down to the tube, ten minutes on the tube, ten minutes to checking-in for the Eurostar, an hour or so faffing around at St Pancras and then the four hours to Amsterdam. At least around seven and a quarter hours.

By plane I can enjoy a leisurely breakfast at home and still be in Amsterdam for a convivial lunch - I've done it!

Which is why the proposals for E* trains to be serving points even further time / distance away than Rotterdam / Amsterdam are going to be so financially challenging.

 

[zwk500]

Which is a shame. For those of us trying to avoid air travel for relatively short journeys in northern Europe, these lengthy travel times certainly make it difficult to justify train travel over air. I mean, I could get 30 mins taxi to Cardiff airport, 1 hour at the airport, 1h 20 in flight, 20 mins exiting the airport, 20 mins train to Amsterdam, which makes flying twice as fast on this route. And that’s not even accounting for any delays on the rail.
I love travelling by train, and Eurostar is usually great, but this route is becoming more and more difficult to justify, time and cost wise

Remember that Belgium will be building infrastructure that primarily benefits Belgians (when it can agree to build anything at all), and not people who specifically want to travel through Belgium.
The EU might pay for a cross-Beglium link, but then itd meet the opposition of Belgian NIMBYS and need Belgian politicians to support it.

 

[Jim the Jim]

The Dutch bit is fine. The Belgians seem pretty uninterested in infrastructure spending in general; you get a pretty good sense of that just looking at the state of the stations the Eurostar crawls through.

 

[NCT]

Belgium is a leisurely country - it can afford to be because it's small. The Brussels - Antwerp bit of the Eurostar paths (the red and blue paths are in opposite half hours) fit into the Belgian takt and are essentially fixed. At least until the Mechelen station works are complete I can't see a way of accelerating them. Yes, Mechelen Station has the new platforms 11 and 12 for the L25N line, but currently (as far as I can tell) L25 traffic are routed through the same platforms while platforms 7-10 are being rebuilt.

Ultimately the L25N-L25 is a bit sh-1-t for high-speed trains especially north of Mechelen - only 160km/h with mixed traffic (E.g. Mortsel-Oude-God only exists on the L25 and not on the L27 so has to be served). As others said you'd need EU money to pay and persuade the Belgians to build a high-speed extension that only benefits non-Belgians passing through. One of the principal beneficiaries has just decided to leave the EU, so I don't see anything happening soon.

(Use Openrailwaymap to understand line and platform references)

(This forum has a swear filter for a primary school ...)

 

[cle]

It benefits France (and beyond) to Netherlands traffic too. I’d hope they might still petition for something - it’s better than another HS spur to a nowhere town in Northern Spain.

And improving access to London still benefits the EU, regardless of the stupid decisions made in the past.

 

[Bald Rick]

Which is a shame. For those of us trying to avoid air travel for relatively short journeys in northern Europe, these lengthy travel times certainly make it difficult to justify train travel over air. I mean, I could get 30 mins taxi to Cardiff airport, 1 hour at the airport, 1h 20 in flight, 20 mins exiting the airport, 20 mins train to Amsterdam, which makes flying twice as fast on this route. And that’s not even accounting for any delays on the rail.

The London - Amsterdam trains are - generally - intended for the very large London area to Amsterdam area market. It is not designed to compete with the (smaller) KLM / EZY regional airports to Amsterdam market. Same prinicple why you will find it quicker to fly the similar distance to Scotland rather than take the train.

Don’t forget that in a straight line it is 220 miles from Central London to Central Amsterdam. The eurostar, via Rainham marshes, Maidstone, Folkestone, Calais, Lille, Brussels, Antwerp and Rotterdam is half as much again.

I will say, though, that your timings are on the sporty side. Anyone with checked bags will be longer at both airports, and most people would allow more than an hour before flight time for arriving at their departure airport.

 

[Bikeman78]

At least the domestic service has been speeded up at last. The hourly loco hauled service was barely any faster than the class 11 hauled trains 18 years ago, thanks to the diversions via the airport and Breda. I recall my last run with an 11, by which time the service did not stop at Antwerpen Berchem. It passed non stop through Berchem at what I can only describe as a frightening speed with the brakes on hard. I wondered if it was going to stop at Centraal! A memorable run. A pair of class 186 must have well over double the power but they accelerate like a snail.

 

[AlastairFraser]

Currently sat on the 15:04 St Pancras to Amsterdam Eurostar service. 2 hours to Brussels mid/zuid - pretty good going. But the next leg of the trip is 2+ hours just to get to Amsterdam. We spent a good 20 mins sat at Brussels midi/zuid, and now we’re crawling through the suburbs of Brussels. Is this really the fastest route? And are there plans to speed it up?
4+ hours to Amsterdam seems unnecessarily excessive.

Question: what alternative routes exist, or which pinch points need attention to speed up this route?

Thanks

People have mentioned the Mechelen station works and the speed restrictions on the Dutch HSL, I reckon once these are gone that they will be looking at 15-20 mins reduction in journey time (I must clarify this is just an opinion!).
But I do agree that it is unlikely that we will see any further Belgian improvements, the country is too small and spending is too fragmented.

Maybe an alternative destination (Cologne) will receive direct Eurostar services soon and that does have prospects for speed improvements.
Cologne to Brussels Nord only takes 1hr 44mins on an ICE now, and I believe improvements on the German side are still underway to reduce journey times on that section (the Belgian section from Brussels to Liege and the border already largely uses high speed lines).

 

[Pierretravels]

Just joined this forum. I travel on Eurostar approximately 4/5 times per year. Most of my journeys are London to Brussels, however I've just done Amsterdam for the first time on Eurostar. Maybe I was very unlucky, I went out on Tues 18 Nov from St Pancras. Train departed 15 mins late (not a big deal) but then the actual journey took 5 hours and 10 minutes centre to centre. Got to Brussels in the usual 2 hours but after that it was incredibly slow especially in the Netherlands. They kept apologising and offered free coffees. We were told we were on diversion due to engineering works, this was a week day. You can actually fly to Amsterdam in about 40 minutes (I know you need to faff about with airports etc). I will only use Eurostar to Brussels from now on, Amsterdam is far too time consuming. I prefer not to fly but journey time on Eurostar is simply not good enough.

 

[quantinghome]

Brussels-Amsterdam has had a lot of investment over the last few decades - the high speed line Antwerp-Rotterdam-Amsterdam, Antwerp station itself, Mechelen upgrade and the new conventional speed line from north of Brussels to Mechelen. Elsewhere Belgium has built 3 high speed lines and four-tracked various routes.

The current situation is also caused by the infrastructure problems mentioned above. But overall, it's the same problem the railways have always had - trying to do too many things at once. Serving the transport needs of a densely populated built-up country whilst also providing a modern, fast European rail service is very difficult.

The only viable solution as far as I can see would be to link up the Belgian high speed lines with a big ol' bypass of Brussels, Leuven and Antwerp like so:



This would be great for Eurostar but there is an obvious problem - it's pretty much all pain for Belgium with not much gain. It would be spending billions to let Eurostar passengers to zap through Belgium at 300kph without stopping. The only advantage Belgium would see would be some relief to its existing network, but not much as you'd still need Eurostar services from London/Paris to Brussels, and Brussels-Antwerp-Netherlands. it would only happen if the EU were to get very serious about building a true high speed network for Europe, rather than going along with whatever member states' plans happen to be.

 

[NCT]

For the umpteenth time - Antwerp possibly, Brussels no. Brussels is a high-speed takt node.

 

[quantinghome]

For the umpteenth time - Antwerp possibly, Brussels no. Brussels is a high-speed takt node.

Paris and Madrid have high speed rail bypasses - why not Brussels?

 

[Trainbike46]

Paris and Madrid have high speed rail bypasses - why not Brussels?

Because Paris and Madrid have high speed bypasses that primarily benefit the country that built them, whereas a high-speed railway line that bypasses both Brussels and Antwerp would only cause disadvantages to the country that would have to build it. It's not happening.

 

[Bald Rick]

Paris and Madrid have high speed rail bypasses - why not Brussels?

Paris doesnt have a through station right in the middle if the city.

 

[43096]

Paris doesnt have a through station right in the middle if the city.

If you exclude RER lines...

 

[zwk500]

If you exclude RER lines...

Which aren't running TGVs.

 

[43096]

Which aren't running TGVs.

No, but that wasn’t in the original statement I replied to.