Porterbrook Class 150 gifted to Mid Hants Railway.

[Justin Smith]

Am I the only person who could not believe their eyes when reading that a Class 150 Sprinter (150231) has entered preservation at the The Watercress Line ?
I cannot think of a DMU which is less suited to a heritage line than a class 150, the view out is appalling, in fact a Pacer is much better in that respect (previously discussed here) plus a class 150 has relatively few opening windows (it has many, and wider, doors), further separating you from heritage experience you have come to immerse yourself in.
Even a Class 156 would be better than a class 150 for a heritage line !

 

[TheLancsNinja]

I don't think this is any different an argument as to when Pacers were being preserved; some people like these units, some don't. As they are retired, people will find them attractive as they will remember them from commuting and travel in their lives - I found this viewpoint with passengers on Pacers on one preserved line. Ultimately, they've been a big part of passenger services for the last 40 years and they too deserve a shot at preservation IMHO.

 

[Shaw S Hunter]

[snip] heritage experience you have come to immerse yourself in.

Remember that there is nobody of working age with memories of everyday travel by steam train so what exactly is the heritage experience? Surely it's more about nostalgia and Sprinters are now old enough for them to fit with that concept.

Perhaps more important are operating costs. Steam trains are close to becoming unaffordable for some heritage operators and complex diesel locos are not that much better. As such a DMU, particularly a common type, starts to look quite attractive. Reconfigure the seating arrangement and you have a very practical old train which will often provide a good match of capacity to demand.

Even a Class 156 would be better than a class 150 for a heritage line !

Agreed. But how long before any become both available and suitable for preservation?

 

[Cymroglan]

Am I the only person who could not believe their eyes when reading that a Class 150 Sprinter (150231) has entered preservation at the The Watercress Line ?
I cannot think of a DMU which is less suited to a heritage line than a class 150, the view out is appalling, in fact a Pacer is much better in that respect (previously discussed here) plus a class 150 has relatively few opening windows (it has many, and wider, doors), further separating you from heritage experience you have come to immerse yourself in.
Even a Class 156 would be better than a class 150 for a heritage line !

I agree 100% with your opening sentence, but sadly, we part ways thereafter!
I couldn’t believe my eyes because I have such fond and happy memories of the 150s in their early days which happened to coincide with some of the happiest years of my life. Despite loving the elderly dmus which the 150s replaced, I welcomed the new units with open arms.
As I understand it, the Mid Hants Railway had a very generous offer from the owners of the unit. They plan to use it to give more regular connections from the main line at Alton.
I really don’t understand why some people get so hot under the collar about things like this. There are plenty of preserved locos etc that I’m not keen on, so I just avoid them.

 

[Peter Mugridge]

Whether we like them or not - and I'm another one who considers 142s vastly better than 150s - they have played an important part in the history of the railway and have operated over a large part of the country for many years, so we should certainly have at least one each of 150/1 and 150/2 preserved.

The unit in question, incidentally, has been put back into Regional Railways livery and was seen at the Greatest Gathering ( see below ) as such.

Whether 150 231 will be joined in preservation by other examples it is still too early to say, but I would hope that at least one example of 150/1 would also be saved.

I would consider that 950 001 should also be saved, but that would be a separate debate as it was a unique purpose built departmental unit.

 

[Justin Smith]

I don't think this is any different an argument as to when Pacers were being preserved; some people like these units, some don't. As they are retired, people will find them attractive as they will remember them from commuting and travel in their lives - I found this viewpoint with passengers on Pacers on one preserved line. Ultimately, they've been a big part of passenger services for the last 40 years and they too deserve a shot at preservation IMHO.

I think a C150 should be preserved but I personally would not pay to go on one unless I needed to get somewhere, which is not the case with a heritage railway. On them it is supposed to be about the travel experience which, if one can see very little out of the window, is, for me, non too positive.

 

[Mat17]

I'd like to see some 150s preserved. I realise they're not popular, but they were the first of the Sprinter classes. They have a place in rail history. The ubiquitous and mundane breed contempt. They may be better thought of in 30 years time.

My pet hate is the 153s. I'd hate those units with a passion, always have, always will. I would never want to travel on one on a heritage line.

 

[Justin Smith]

I'd like to see some 150s preserved. I realise they're not popular, but they were the first of the Sprinter classes. They have a place in rail history. The ubiquitous and mundane breed contempt. They may be better thought of in 30 years time.

My pet hate is the 153s. I'd hate those units with a passion, always have, always will. I would never want to travel on one on a heritage line.

As I said above I agree that a C150 should be preserved as they are historic, but I am interested to know why you'd rather travel on a C150 (with a very poor view out of the windows) than a C153 (with a reasonable view out of the windows),particularly on a heritage line ?

 

[Mat17]

150s have better legroom than a 153 and they don't have that awful smell, and they have two carriages instead of one. I've spent too many years on commuter trains when a single carriage arrived instead of three.

 

[Dunfanaghy Roa]

If you watch the you tube of Richard Bentley, our Operations Manager, discussing the 150 he mentioned that it has tread brakes. Much less stressful on the 1 in 60 in the autumn, I reckon. Don't rate discs myself.
Pat

 

[Bletchleyite]

150s have better legroom than a 153 and they don't have that awful smell, and they have two carriages instead of one. I've spent too many years on commuter trains when a single carriage arrived instead of three.

Do they? 150/2 legroom is pretty grim.

They can rearrange seats, though, subject to floor obstructions. There's at least one preserved Pacer knocking about with an all tables layout.

 

[Segedunum]

Do they? 150/2 legroom is pretty grim.

They can rearrange seats, though, subject to floor obstructions. There's at least one preserved Pacer knocking about with an all tables layout.

This was also my thought - perhaps at a later date the layout could be rearranged to have seats line up with windows better (or have it as all tables).

The TfW 150s at least had/have a somewhat tolerable layout - better than the all bay seated 3+2 150s on Northern where nothing aligns at all.

 

[Ashley Hill]

At least one of each variant 0,1 and 2 should be preserved but not too many as it would dilute interest. Did I understand correctly some time ago that the NRM is claiming 150001?

 

[bramling]

Am I the only person who could not believe their eyes when reading that a Class 150 Sprinter (150231) has entered preservation at the The Watercress Line ?
I cannot think of a DMU which is less suited to a heritage line than a class 150, the view out is appalling, in fact a Pacer is much better in that respect (previously discussed here) plus a class 150 has relatively few opening windows (it has many, and wider, doors), further separating you from heritage experience you have come to immerse yourself in.
Even a Class 156 would be better than a class 150 for a heritage line !

I can see two sides to this. To be fair, the interior of the TFW (and GWR) 150s is reasonably decent, though it still isn’t wonderfully suitable for a heritage railway, not least because a significant amount of space is taken up by the accessible area. Likewise 150s have been commonplace round the country for a generation or more now, so deserve some place in preservation.

I did raise an eyebrow at the MHR though, a line they have no real association with. I’d have preferred them to do more with their DEMU.

I agree the door pockets on 150s are a significant issue, though the TFW/GWR interior layout does make the best of a bad job on this.

 

[UP13]

I’d have preferred them to do more with their DEMU.

They are/will but it will cost both time and money.

The Hampshire Unit is still having funds raised for her, while the 150 is available straight away for practically no cost.

Long term they will use Hammy with the sprinter as back up. But until then the printer will fill the role that no other piece of rolling stock on the line can do.

The 150 may not have a connection with the MHR, but the former LSWR region is synonymous with the 455 unit (the DC EMU version), which will never run in preservation for obvious reasons. For somebody who grew up with them, the 150 is the closest I'll get to riding on them once they've all gone.

 

[D365]

My pet hate is the 153s. I'd hate those units with a passion, always have, always will. I would never want to travel on one on a heritage line.

As I said above I agree that a C150 should be preserved as they are historic, but I am interested to know why you'd rather travel on a C150 (with a very poor view out of the windows) than a C153 (with a reasonable view out of the windows),particularly on a heritage line ?

I’ve never travelled on a Class 153 on the mainline, but I very much enjoyed the preserved Class 153s at the GCR diesel galas.

If you watch the you tube of Richard Bentley, our Operations Manager, discussing the 150 he mentioned that it has tread brakes. Much less stressful on the 1 in 60 in the autumn, I reckon. Don't rate discs myself.

Plus the TfW and Northern 150s have a modern, computerised WSP (Wheel Slide Protection) system.

 

[Harpers Tate]

I cannot think of a DMU which is less suited to a heritage line than a class 150, the view out is appalling, in fact a Pacer is much better in that respect (previously discussed here) plus a class 150 has relatively few opening windows (it has many, and wider, doors), further separating you from heritage experience you have come to immerse yourself in.

This, exactly. Possibly one of the most unsuitable things for a tourist attraction.

 

[Invincible]

They are/will but it will cost both time and money.

The Hampshire Unit is still having funds raised for her, while the 150 is available straight away for practically no cost.

Long term they will use Hammy with the sprinter as back up. But until then the printer will fill the role that no other piece of rolling stock on the line can do.

The 150 may not have a connection with the MHR, but the former LSWR region is synonymous with the 455 unit (the DC EMU version), which will never run in preservation for obvious reasons. For somebody who grew up with them, the 150 is the closest I'll get to riding on them once they've all gone.

The 150 will run a new early morning train on the line from Alton, so will not replace a steam train, till Hammy the Thumper DEMU is restored.
There was an update yesterday on Hammy with photos by Richard Bentley on Facebook.

Facebook

www.facebook.com

A 455 unit will be difficult to run on a preserved railway, but there is talk one of the EMU class might be saved as a static unit at Basingstoke.

 

[RPI]

I think a C150 should be preserved but I personally would not pay to go on one unless I needed to get somewhere, which is not the case with a heritage railway. On them it is supposed to be about the travel experience which, if one can see very little out of the window, is, for me, non too positive.

Like anything, it's subjective, I hate diesel galas where railways have modern locos present, but that's just my opinion and I'm in a minority, so I just choose to avoid those events, if you wouldn't want to pay to go on a 150 on a preserved line then quite simply, don't!

 

[Towers]

Like anything, it's subjective, I hate diesel galas where railways have modern locos present, but that's just my opinion and I'm in a minority, so I just choose to avoid those events, if you wouldn't want to pay to go on a 150 on a preserved line then quite simply, don't!

Exactly!

Whilst I would agree that there is a need for heritage lines not to alienate a chunk of their target market by becoming DMU museums, there is no reason that second gen DMUs should be overlooked for preservation, assuming they are supplementing rather than replacing the more ‘traditional’ fayre. There will always be a general tourist market for a ride on a steam train of course, but heritage lines are all about balancing the needs of those customers with the desire from enthusiasts to ride on their favoured stock.

The reality is that steam fans will now start to become ever fewer as generations die out, and we are moving towards a point where the more ‘senior’ enthusiasts will be those whose childhoods were in the 70s and all about diesels. That brings us only a decade or two away from the following generation, whose childhood memories will be of Sprinters and the like! Some of the heritage lines apparently already report that their diesel galas attract bigger crowds than the steam equivalent, and that trend will only grow. This is precisely the same pattern seen with car enthusiasts and bus preservation, with cries of “that’s not a classic…” from those who struggle to appreciate that time is a moving thing and what they remember as being “modern” will inevitably become just as historic as whatever their preferred examples might be.

Class 150s were part of BR’s revolution and survival, they’re equally as deserving of preservation as a whole host of steam & diesel locos!

 

[sprinterguy]

The unit in question, incidentally, has been put back into Regional Railways livery and was seen at the Greatest Gathering ( see below ) as such.

Provincial livery, though they've mucked up the livery treatment at the vehicle inner ends for some reason, so it's not really "as once was" anyway, externally or internally. Admittedly the more modern 2+2 refurb interior the unit has is rather more palatable than the as-delivered 3+2 arrangement. I think it has tables for a start, which will be useful in a heritage railway context.

 

[Justin Smith]

Exactly!

Whilst I would agree that there is a need for heritage lines not to alienate a chunk of their target market by becoming DMU museums, there is no reason that second gen DMUs should be overlooked for preservation, assuming they are supplementing rather than replacing the more ‘traditional’ fayre. There will always be a general tourist market for a ride on a steam train of course, but heritage lines are all about balancing the needs of those customers with the desire from enthusiasts to ride on their favoured stock.

The reality is that steam fans will now start to become ever fewer as generations die out, and we are moving towards a point where the more ‘senior’ enthusiasts will be those whose childhoods were in the 70s and all about diesels. That brings us only a decade or two away from the following generation, whose childhood memories will be of Sprinters and the like! Some of the heritage lines apparently already report that their diesel galas attract bigger crowds than the steam equivalent, and that trend will only grow. This is precisely the same pattern seen with car enthusiasts and bus preservation, with cries of “that’s not a classic…” from those who struggle to appreciate that time is a moving thing and what they remember as being “modern” will inevitably become just as historic as whatever their preferred examples might be.

Class 150s were part of BR’s revolution and survival, they’re equally as deserving of preservation as a whole host of steam & diesel locos!

But I am not saying a Class 150, or other modern rolling stock, shouldn't be preserved, what I am saying that the Class 150 specifically is a poor choice for use at a heritage railway because the view out from it is so bad. I cannot imagine many people would choose to go from A to B purely for the pleasure of the journey in one of those.

 

[Sprinter107]

Id sooner a 150 than a 156 anytime. Glad a 150s been preserved. Always liked them.

 

[merry]

but I very much enjoyed the preserved Class 153s at the GCR diesel galas.

Although the 153s run at galas, they were actually obtained to enhance the training days the GCR provide to mainline TOC traincrew. The 153s are closer in features to modern DMUs, making the training even more valuable. Using a preserved railway midweek (usually under possession) is much safer and more flexible for training than doing it on the national network, and of course the GCR offers long sections of double track which is ideal for realistic training.

 

[NER1621]

The reality is that steam fans will now start to become ever fewer as generations die out,

Oh not this again. The interest in steam locomotives has got virtually nothing to do with whether you remember them in service. In the same way that interest in civil war reenactments has got virtually nothing to do with whether you were an active supporter of Parliament against the King in the 1640s.

 

[Lewisham2221]

Oh not this again. The interest in steam locomotives has got virtually nothing to do with whether you remember them in service. In the same way that interest in civil war reenactments has got virtually nothing to do with whether you were an active supporter of Parliament against the King in the 1640s.

It really has, from an enthusiast point of view. Enthusiasts tend to have more of an interest in things that were around when they were growing up and/or first got interested, so younger enthusiasts are less likely to be interested in steam.

The general public, however, are probably more likely to be interested in the novelty factor of steam, even if they've never seen a "real life" steam hauled train.

The same is true in bus preservation. The general public are more likely to be attracted by something like a Routemaster or some other 60+ year old half-cab/rear entrance bus. On the other hand, younger enthusiasts are more likely to be interested in stuff from the 80s, 90s and even 00s.

 

[Egg Centric]

It really has, from an enthusiast point of view. Enthusiasts tend to have more of an interest in things that were around when they were growing up and/or first got interested, so younger enthusiasts are less likely to be interested in steam.

I wonder if train simulation can help here. As someone born in the latter half of the 80s I was like you describe - honestly more interested in hearing a Valenta screaming again than anything else. But playing train simulations helped me as I began to understand a lot more about what was going on in a steam locomotive.

Unfortunately there's a serious problem here - the most popular train simulator these days, Train Sim World, has completely broken steam physics. Its predecessor currently called Train Sim Classic isn't great on its own but has many add ons available where (I'm told - obv I haven't driven a real loco) the simulation is far far better after over a decade of tweaking of the initial model by enthusiasts.

I don't think I'm atypical in playing simulators - enthusiasm is a very broad church of course but surely most under 50 would at least want to dabble. It's therefore practically criminal that there's no longer a simulator that's both reasonably modern and that properly simulates steam and all the stuff you need to do to manage boiler pressure (typically in the earlier simulation you are both the driver and the fireman), water level, the fire, etc.

I'm convinced if this were brought forward to eg TSW that it would create new steam fans in a way nothing else I can think of would. Eccentric rail loving financiers or music moguls please take note!

 

[Towers]

Oh not this again. The interest in steam locomotives has got virtually nothing to do with whether you remember them in service. In the same way that interest in civil war reenactments has got virtually nothing to do with whether you were an active supporter of Parliament against the King in the 1640s.

I disagree - rail enthusiasts by and large are inherently drawn to what they remember, as are those who maintain classic cars, preserved buses and so on. Not exclusively of course, but largely. There will always be a decent chunk with interests beyond their own memories, but much of the market for heritage steam in generations to come will increasingly be the generic tourist/lesiure market rather then enthusiasts. It is what it is.

 

[thejuggler]

I'm sure if the internet had existed there would have been similar discussions about saving 101s!

The reason for preservation is it isn't for now, it is so in decades to come those not yet born can experience how good/bad 1980s units were.

 

[Mat17]

The internet did exist when the 101s were in their last years! I was even a member of a yahoo group following the 101s.