Study launched into improving rail connectivity between Goole and Leeds

[YorksLad12]

Study launched into improving rail connectivity between Goole and Leeds

www.eastriding.gov.uk

I've not seen this mentioned anywhere - forgive me if my searching capabilities are useless.

From the website:

East Riding of Yorkshire Council is launching a major study to improve public transport connectivity for Goole and the Lower Aire Valley to Leeds, working with local authority partners across Yorkshire.

The study, commissioned from Stantec, will develop a ‘case for change’ to explore better strategic transport links between Goole, Knottingley and onward connections to Leeds, Hull and Wakefield.

The study area includes Goole, Rawcliffe, Snaith, Hensall, Eggborough, Knottingley, Pontefract, Featherstone, Castleford and Normanton.

Key drivers for the study include employment growth, with new developments at Humber Freeport sites and major projects at Eggborough and Kellingley, as well as housing development with over 2,600 homes planned for Goole and Howden. Additionally, there has been increased regional and leisure travel demand, with more travel to employment and shopping destinations such as Leeds, Wakefield, Xscape and Junction 32 Shopping Outlet.

Residents can complete the survey online at https://storymaps.arcgis.com/stories/a7396d2214bc4a78a44fb06522aa89b3

I've long wanted to see more services extend from Knottingley to Goole during the day (even if only every two hours). It's a pity though that the image they use has the M62 as the 'line of importance' on the map, rather than the railway line...

 

[Tetchytyke]

Goole-Castleford-Leeds should be able to support 2-hourly services, especially with all the leisure facilities around Glasshoughton as a magnet. The current service level is a disgrace.

I hope the three councils that the line goes through can work together and that they get the business case together.

 

[Mcr Warrior]

The current service level is a disgrace.

You're not wrong. Two "direct" trains from Goole to Leeds, at 0742 and 1944. One return working from Leeds at 1758. Nothing on Sundays. Presumably interchanging at Doncaster is usually needed.

 

[anothertyke]

Two an hour via Doncaster, one an hour via Brough and Selby seems typical. Problem for the study will be that the base level of frequency is not that bad, so everything depends on the interchange penalty.

 

[DarloRich]

is there demand beyond Knottingley?

 

[driverd]

is there demand beyond Knottingley?

In so far as the railway serving small-ish villages beyond Knottingley, there is a market. Whether this market will be tempted to use rail is another matter but, as ever, that will all come down to cost/time competitiveness and the propensity of the market to use rail.

 

[anothertyke]

The four villages combined have a combined population of around 7000,bigger than I was expecting I must admit. I'd be looking at the trip rates from places like Ulleskelf, Church Fenton, South Milford etc to get an idea of potential.

 

[YorksLad12]

is there demand beyond Knottingley?

On the one hand, there's a limited service; therefore, little-to-no demand. It was on the slide long before regular services were withdrawn, and the M62 almost parallels the line.

On the other hand, if this was done as a proper, integrated plan you could build a P&R site at, say Whitley Bridge (station's next to a level crossing, but close to M62 J34) to encourage mode transfer, and improve the car parks at the other stations.

 

[skyhigh]

There were plans to extend services, at least partly due to the new Siemens factory at Goole. The number of drivers who sign Knottingley to Goole was increased fairly dramatically to support this (as from the last timetable change in May). Have these plans fallen through for there to be another study?

 

[Kite159]

Makes sense, serve those stations properly and customers might actually use the trains.

Reasonable catchment area for Snaith & Whitley Bridge (from Eggborough). The other two stations are a bit more remote from the settlements they are named after.

These days, the number of freight trains using the line has decreased compared to the height of king coal.

 

[Tetchytyke]

is there demand beyond Knottingley?

Hard to tell because the service has been so poor since 1991. Any demand has long since moved to the M62.

Other than Goole it is rural, but Eggborough has a population of about 2,000 and Snaith about 3,500. Add in Goole's 20,000 people and there should be a market for regular direct trains to Leeds.

In terms of time, it's about 70 minutes from Leeds to Goole on the peak time direct trains. Leeds to Goole via Doncaster takes anywhere between 55 and 80 minutes depending on connections. Leeds to Goole via Brough takes longer and is more expensive than via Doncaster.

 

[billio]

is there demand beyond Knottingley?

The few miles of railway line around Eggborough is in North Yorkshire. Whether they have any interest in a railway which will have nothing to do with the rest of the county I don't know, but they have plans to build houses at Eggborough.
Having to visit Whitley Bridge every few weeks, in future it would be nice to go by train, but I'm not expecting this anytime soon.

 

[XCTurbostar]

How many times do we have to learn that if you introduce attractive services, people will use them..

 

[YorksLad12]

The few miles of railway line around Eggborough is in North Yorkshire. Whether they have any interest in a railway which will have nothing to do with the rest of the county I don't know, but they have plans to build houses at Eggborough.
Having to visit Whitley Bridge every few weeks, in future it would be nice to go by train, but I'm not expecting this anytime soon.

Eggborough has/had it's own railway line (as does Drax). Build a North and South station on the loop, if that's where the housing is going (and if getting to Goole proves too difficult)?

 

[yoyothehobo]

The best you could do is improve it by having services turn back at Eggborough/Whitely Bridge if they build houses there.

Anything beyond that and you are better spending the money burning it for electricity at Drax.

 

[Kite159]

The best you could do is improve it by having services turn back at Eggborough/Whitely Bridge if they build houses there.

Anything beyond that and you are better spending the money burning it for electricity at Drax.

No doubt people were saying the same thing about Okehampton & the Ashington line...

 

[yoyothehobo]

No doubt people were saying the same thing about Okehampton & the Ashington line...

Yes. but the Okehampton line gives a 35-40 minute journey to Exeter to a place that essentially wasnt rail connected.

The Ashington line has the advantage of people who exist to use it.

There is absolutely no population here that is worth serving using the finite resources available. If Goole had only one city it could be linked to then yes, you could consider improvements.

But it already has good links to Doncaster and Hull? Why does it need to be connected to Leeds as well, yes it is the biggest city in the region, but the success of Goole cannot be reliant on Leeds. If it wasnt for the Aire valley power stations, this line would definitely be consigned to the history books.

Once you get beyond the junction for Drax, the earthwork quality is awful, single track and has been at risk to heavy flooding from the River Aire.

The fact is these towns are immediately adjacent to one of the less busy stretches of the M62 and you would realistically have to get a frequency of 1tph or better to compete in any meaningful way. 1tp2h and mooting it as a beneficial for commuting or visiting leisure facilities is as useful as 2tpd.

 

[dk1]

You're not wrong. Two "direct" trains from Goole to Leeds, at 0742 and 1944. One return working from Leeds at 1758. Nothing on Sundays. Presumably interchanging at Doncaster is usually needed.

I’ve never known it any different. Even these ‘peak’ services were always sparsely used east of Knottingley. Is there any real demand?

 

[tumbledown]

How many times do we have to learn that if you introduce attractive services, people will use them..

We are in danger of selection bias though. We can't name many reopening schemes or new services that died a death because they never happened, because they didn't pass the cost/benefit test.

 

[anothertyke]

We are in danger of selection bias though. We can't name many reopening schemes or new services that died a death because they never happened, because they didn't pass the cost/benefit test.

There must be quite a few which have had money spent on feasibility but never made it over the line---Leicester to Burton, Skipton to Colne etc. Also new stations which looked like reasonable cases --Lightcliffe in W Yorks for example.

What is different about this case is---no capital investment and if you can borrow one of the 150s which sits at Leeds in platform zero from 10 until 5, no increase in train peak vehicle requirement, so it is a running cost only type of case. So it could be a case of low benefit/low cost,rather atypical. But even direct train running costs do not come cheap! Will the cash strapped local authorties fancy chipping in?

 

[Harpers Tate]

I’ve never known it any different. Even these ‘peak’ services were always sparsely used east of Knottingley. Is there any real demand?

I don't know - but loadings on the existing pattern can hardly be considered any kind of indicator. I mean - if you were in (say) Snaith - would you even begin to contemplate using the train to travel, given the single opportunity daily to return there?

 

[YorkRailFan]

In terms of time, it's about 70 minutes from Leeds to Goole on the peak time direct trains. Leeds to Goole via Doncaster takes anywhere between 55 and 80 minutes depending on connections. Leeds to Goole via Brough takes longer and is more expensive than via Doncaster.

Comparing this with the Google Maps estimate for driving, the quickest route is only 43 minutes (using the M62) but this is dependent on traffic, some routes take up to 53 minutes.

To attract most people away from their cars, you'd not only need to improve frequency but also journey times. I doubt selling the service, with the current journey times, as a way of skipping the traffic, even with an improved frequency, would do enough to facilitate a model shift.

 

[InkyScrolls]

The M62 is so frequently jammed that, IMO, a consistent and reliable frequency would draw a decent amount of custom.

 

[rapmastaj]

Leeds to Goole would be used. But if the direct train takes roughly as long or even longer than the existing journey changing at Doncaster, it doesn't seem very worthwhile.

 

[YorksLad12]

Comparing this with the Google Maps estimate for driving, the quickest route is only 43 minutes (using the M62) but this is dependent on traffic, some routes take up to 53 minutes.

Is that right to centre of Leeds, like train does? Bearing in mind you can’t do that any more…

To attract most people away from their cars, you'd not only need to improve frequency but also journey times. I doubt selling the service, with the current journey times, as a way of skipping the traffic, even with an improved frequency, would do enough to facilitate a model shift.

Non-stop between Google and Knottingley?

I suppose what they really need to show is how many people drive to Knottingley to catch the train - but if they’re going to Pontefract, Glasshoughton or Castleford they might as well keep driving.

 

[moonarrow458]

A quick scan of RTT suggests you could improve the service provision slightly based off of the current timetable without any additional units utilising dead time at knottingley and existing ECS.

2F51 - 05:51 Leeds to Knottingley has a 48 minute layover at Knottingley before forming 2F42 at 07:15 to Leeds
2F51 could be extended in service to Snaith arriving at 06:45 and returning 06:56 to Leeds as an extended version of 2F42.
That would provide a pre-8am arrival to Leeds from Snaith, Whitely Bridge and Hensall.

Then instead of 5F46 the current morning ECS from Holbeck to Goole, extend 2A03 the 06:15 from Leeds to Knottingley, in service all station to Goole to form 2F46.
2A02 at 07:35 from Knottingley would then instead be formed of 5F46 or an equivalent ECS.

Then in the evening extend 2A29 the 19:29 Leeds to Knottingley in service to Snaith, since that service currently runs ECS back to Holbeck once at Knottingley. This would get to Snaith at around 20:30. Then you could run this back in service to Leeds at 20:58 taking the path of 2F72 at 21:16 from Knottingley.

This would at least improve commuting options for Snaith, Hensall and Whitely Bridge with 2 trains in the morning towards Leeds and 2 in the evening from Leeds, whilst the extra service towards Goole in the morning instead of ECS might also facilitate some extra journeys at minimal cost.

Obviously would not solve the issue of no trains off-peak but would be a start, if one struggled to find the funds for an all day service. Would likely rejigg the unit diagrams slightly, and definately traincrew diagrams but no extra units needed.

 

[AlastairFraser]

There seems to be potential for thousands and thousands of houses around the stations on the line as far as Goole to help relieve the housing crisis in Leeds and other parts of the West Yorks conurbation.
Surely this would provide a solid base for an hourly stopper services Leeds to Goole to connect those new commuter estates to Leeds (and Hull with a change at Goole?)

 

[yorksrob]

But it already has good links to Doncaster and Hull? Why does it need to be connected to Leeds as well, yes it is the biggest city in the region, but the success of Goole cannot be reliant on Leeds. If it wasnt for the Aire valley power stations, this line would definitely be consigned to the history books.

Once you get beyond the junction for Drax, the earthwork quality is awful, single track and has been at risk to heavy flooding from the River Aire.

The fact is these towns are immediately adjacent to one of the less busy stretches of the M62 and you would realistically have to get a frequency of 1tph or better to compete in any meaningful way. 1tp2h and mooting it as a beneficial for commuting or visiting leisure facilities is as useful as 2tpd.

What a bizarre argument.

"Goole has connections to Doncaster and Hull, why does it need one to Leeds".

It's like saying "Derby has good connections to London and Sheffield, why does it need a line to Birmingham as well".

What makes you say that one train every two hours is only as useful as one trip a day ?

I've travelled on many two-hourly services over the years (usually Sunday ones) and they're a lot busier than the current daily East of Knottingly (which I've also been on).

Comparing this with the Google Maps estimate for driving, the quickest route is only 43 minutes (using the M62) but this is dependent on traffic, some routes take up to 53 minutes.

To attract most people away from their cars, you'd not only need to improve frequency but also journey times. I doubt selling the service, with the current journey times, as a way of skipping the traffic, even with an improved frequency, would do enough to facilitate a model shift.

And to re-iterate, the world does not revolve around motorists.

Is that right to centre of Leeds, like train does? Bearing in mind you can’t do that any more…

Non-stop between Google and Knottingley?

I suppose what they really need to show is how many people drive to Knottingley to catch the train - but if they’re going to Pontefract, Glasshoughton or Castleford they might as well keep driving.

Non-stop between Goole and Knottingley would be a lost opportunity for local connectivity - Snaith really is handily close to the station

 

[YorkRailFan]

Is that right to centre of Leeds, like train does? Bearing in mind you can’t do that any more…

Yes, the times I gave were City Centre to city centre.

And to re-iterate, the world does not revolve around motorists

Oh I agree, but the railway needs to realise what it's going up against in terms of competition.

Non-stop between Google and Knottingley?

An hourly service between Goole and Leeds, with a service every 2 hours being the stopper, would be a great improvement and offers faster journeys.

 

[yoyothehobo]

What a bizarre argument.

"Goole has connections to Doncaster and Hull, why does it need one to Leeds".

It's like saying "Derby has good connections to London and Sheffield, why does it need a line to Birmingham as well".

What makes you say that one train every two hours is only as useful as one trip a day ?

I've travelled on many two-hourly services over the years (usually Sunday ones) and they're a lot busier than the current daily East of Knottingly (which I've also been on).

You are being deliberately obtuse here i think. It is nothing like that, could you expand on how it is similar to "Derby has good connections to London and Sheffield, why does it need a line to Birmingham as well". I am suggesting that a small town with a good service to two cities, does not need an increased service to a bigger, further away city.

If you are commuting into Leeds on a 1tp2h service, the consequence of missing that service is so high that you just drive. Sundays are irrelevant to the argument.

And to re-iterate, the world does not revolve around motorists.

No it doesnt, but for the vast majority of people it is their primary means of transport, and public transport does not revolve around trains, no matter how much we may love catching them. I would love to live in the fantasy world of trains are the answer to everything, but unfortunately i live in the real world and am aware of the financial pressures and just how much we are sweating assets to run the services we do.