How Viable are Preserved Railways?

[Belperpete]

I used Dunster station in 2023, walking to and from the eponymous Castle, a steep uphill walk for some of the way.

I visited Dunster in the late 1950s or early 60s, when the family holidayed there, staying in a beach hut. I have probably inherited a picture of me propped up on the level crossing gates watching a pannier tank go through. I last visited sometime before COVID, and was disappointed to find the crossing gates had gone, and the sidings had turned into the eponymous heritage scrap yard, somewhat spoiling the atmosphere of the station. But the village was as delightful as I recalled it, with more to do than might first appear.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 1 Sep 2025 ==

Why does a given railway continue to exist? If it exists primarily to make money from tourists then it is a tourist railway. The preservation of historic rolling stock is a means to the money making end.

If on the other hand the railway exists because some enthusiasts wanted to (for example) rescue a Barry wreck and run it, then it is a heritage railway. It exists to preserve old equipment and the tourists are the means to the end of achieving that goal.

Establishing the goal of an organisation is an important consideration when applying for external funding.

If the goal of an organisation is important, then I suggest that you refer to the Articles of Association for the DVR. These clearly state that the primary objective of the company is to acquire and maintain the railway and its rolling stock, in other words, to preserve it as a railway. There are all sorts of subsidiary objectives (such as being allowed to trade as sugar and sweetmeat merchants!), but this is its primary purpose.

The primary objective of the DVR is not to make a profit for its shareholders. Indeed, the DVR has not paid any dividend for some years. It is a public limited company that has been set up with the express purpose of preserving and running the railway. Agreed that the status of the organisation will affect what funding is available, but that is something entirely different to whether or not it is a heritage railway.

To the Edwardians, sport was an exercise to be undertaken by "gentlemen amateurs" doing It for noble objectives. The idea that someone should get paid for competing was sacrilege - it just wasn't cricket (or tennis, or football etc.). You seem to hold the same quaint view of railway heritage, as something that inherently can only be done by noble amateurs, not by grubby limited companies.

Personally, I think the concept that a railway that gets taken over by a company instantly ceases to be a heritage railway, even if the objectives remain the same, as laughable. A football club that gets bought up by a private company doesn't cease to be a football club. If it is a club that plays football, then it is still a football club. Likewise a railway that runs heritage stock on a heritage line is surely a heritage railway, regardless of who owns it.

All heritage railways have had to make compromises to survive. I doubt that there are any where you will get a truly authentic feel of what it was like to travel in the age of steam. They have had to adapt to carry far more passengers than they used to, requiring modern amenities. I doubt that many country branch stations had restaurants and souvenir shops, for example. Inevitably, a heritage railway that is being run by a company that is required to break even will probably have to make more compromises than one that is being subsided by its members, but provided that it is still preserving and running heritage stock on a heritage line, then it is surely still a heritage railway.

 

[geoffk]

There are a LOT of heritage railways in the UK, all chasing a shrinking market and shrinking consumer spend. Some of the railways are excellent - I enjoyed the KWVR a couple of years ago very much - and it has the Bronte connection to interest people. However many are pretty undifferentiated, often of great interest to cranks and enthusiasts but not the wider public.

I'm amazed there haven't been any insolvencies in the heritage space.

Across the Irish Sea, the Tralee and Dingle heritage railway operation between Tralee and Blennerville, which opened in 1993, operated for only around 10 years when the steam loco needed major repairs and has since fallen into disrepair. I wonder how viable any of the heritage lines are in the island of Ireland. Recent photos of the Giant's Causeway and Bushmills Railway show a diesel unit on the line and I don't know if the steam locos I saw when visiting in 2009/10 are still used.

 

[Belperpete]

Across the Irish Sea, the Tralee and Dingle heritage railway operation between Tralee and Blennerville, which opened in 1993, operated for only around 10 years when the steam loco needed major repairs and has since fallen into disrepair. I wonder how viable any of the heritage lines are in the island of Ireland. Recent photos of the Giant's Causeway and Bushmills Railway show a diesel unit on the line and I don't know if the steam locos I saw when visiting in 2009/10 are still used.

One of the things that the previously mentioned report into the IoM railways considered was whether they could use volunteers. The answer was no, as the population of the IoM is too small to draw a sufficient number of volunteers from. I suspect that Eire may have the same problem, as many of its preserved lines seem to be well away from the major population centres.

When the Groudle Glen and Laxey Mines railways were asked for their opinions, they both said it would be a bad idea for the IoMR to use volunteers, as all that would happen would be that volunteers would transfer from them to IOMR, leaving them unsustainable. I suspect that a similar thing has already happened in the UK, with the available volunteer base being spread too thinly over too many heritage lines. As the number of volunteers available seems to be ever diminishing, this is going to mean that rather than one line having a minor problem, several lines are going to have significant problems.

An analogy is when both BMIbaby and easyJet opened routes from East Midlands to Prague more or less simultaneously. They both then saw they had insufficient passengers to be viable, so both pulled the plug more or less simultaneously. Ironically, there were probably sufficient passenger numbers if there had been only one airline operating the route.

 

[eldomtom2]

If the goal of an organisation is important, then I suggest that you refer to the Articles of Association for the DVR. These clearly state that the primary objective of the company is to acquire and maintain the railway and its rolling stock, in other words, to preserve it as a railway. There are all sorts of subsidiary objectives (such as being allowed to trade as sugar and sweetmeat merchants!), but this is its primary purpose.

Can you link these Articles of Association that state that the primary objective of the company is to acquire and maintain the railway and its rolling stock? The Articles of Association for Dart Valley Railway Ltd on Companies House make no mention of the company's "objective".

 

[WAB]

When the Groudle Glen and Laxey Mines railways were asked for their opinions, they both said it would be a bad idea for the IoMR to use volunteers, as all that would happen would be that volunteers would transfer from them to IOMR, leaving them unsustainable. I suspect that a similar thing has already happened in the UK, with the available volunteer base being spread too thinly over too many heritage lines. As the number of volunteers available seems to be ever diminishing, this is going to mean that rather than one line having a minor problem, several lines are going to have significant problems.

Interestingly, the same thing was said in the earliest days when the Ffestiniog was set up, with some at the Talyllyn worried that there weren’t the volunteers to be able to sustain TWO heritage railways in the UK.

 

[Yorkshire09876]

Interestingly, the same thing was said in the earliest days when the Ffestiniog was set up, with some at the Talyllyn worried that there weren’t the volunteers to be able to sustain TWO heritage railways in the UK.

It may well have been the case at the time. Subsequently there was a growth in the number of comfortably-off, active retired, and in the amount of leisure time. Things are going the other way again now.

 

[Mikey C]

It may well have been the case at the time. Subsequently there was a growth in the number of comfortably-off, active retired, and in the amount of leisure time. Things are going the other way again now.

I would suggest a greater issue is that far fewer people have the practical skills previous generations had. Working in a office or on computers, isn't good training for maintaining steam or even diesel engines.

 

[Krokodil]

I would suggest a greater issue is that far fewer people have the practical skills previous generations had. Working in a office or on computers, isn't good training for maintaining steam or even diesel engines.

This is important. While there were plenty of amateurs (and vicars) in the early days of preservation there was a core of men like Tom Rolt and David Curwen who did have prior experience with steam. Preserved railways need to recognise that some skills are at risk of dying out and that they need to pass them onto new generations.

 

[Belperpete]

Can you link these Articles of Association that state that the primary objective of the company is to acquire and maintain the railway and its rolling stock? The Articles of Association for Dart Valley Railway Ltd on Companies House make no mention of the company's "objective".

Apologies, it is in the memorandum of association, which are listed on Companies House, together with the articles.

 

[eldomtom2]

Apologies, it is in the memorandum of association, which are listed on Companies House, together with the articles.

Ah, you're referring to the 1981 memorandum of association? I don't believe that's valid any longer - since the objects clause setting out the permitted actions of a company was removed from memorandums of associations and placed in companies' articles of association by the Companies Act 2006, the absence of an objects clause (which the Companies Act 2006 made no longer necessary) from the most recent (2018) articles of association for the DVR Ltd indicates that it is no longer in force.

 

[CastlebarKeith]

When your railway runs across a coalfield, the existence of which was a major factor in that railway's construction,
but the coal you use on your heritage line is now sourced from Australia, China or Chile,
there is inevitably going to be a fiscal problem that the original builders never faced.

 

[Tom B]

I would suggest a greater issue is that far fewer people have the practical skills previous generations had. Working in a office or on computers, isn't good training for maintaining steam or even diesel engines.

I agree that this is a big issue, and especially given that fewer people are likely to have had the exposure to anything similar. I know that, for example, servicing your car or replacing the wishbones or head gasket doesn't mean that you could suddenly work on a locomotive, but being competent enough to do something like that gives you some grounding to learn more.

However, I do think that the generational changes as regards to pension and wealth are going to be a much broader issue. The retiree of the past who perhaps stopped work at 55 on a final salary pension, with energy and fitness to do 15-20 odd years of voluntary work, is very different from somebody working until 70 and being worn out entirely.

 

[railfan99]

The accounts for West Somerset Railway show it has reduced its annual loss from c.£230,000 to under £30,000.

But for poor ticket sales pre-Christmas 2024, it would have shown a net profit.

Well done, particularly given the challenging economic circumstances and increased salary/wages costs and National Insurance payments.

 

[Flying Phil]

Whilst I think that the future for all the heritage lines will continue to be challenging I think most will still be in business in twenty and more years time. The generation that knew BR steam will have gone, but there is a steady flow of younger people coming forward who have only known preserved steam. There are four or five centres of overhaul/restoration knowledge and skills (Tyesley/Rileys/LSL/SDRE etc) who have a proven sustainable business model.
The number of retirees is steadily increasing and their general health is improving - and the benefits to that of continuing exercise is well documented.
Looking back over the past 50 years shows that there were many predicting doom and failures....but the reality now is that there are more preserved lines/volunteers/track miles than ever. However I do think we will not have many more.

 

[Bikeman78]

I have just returned from a holiday in North Wales and spent a small fortune visiting a number of railways. Snowdon was the only one I regret doing...

I find the whole Snowdon situation baffling. I would expect people who like mountains to enjoy the challenge and satisfaction of walking up. There is no certainly of a good view, though this summer has been good in that respect. I have been up four times. The first time I walked and it was sunny. I've been on the train three times, and it was cold and cloudy every time. For me, the attraction was the steam loco working hard, and it's good that they have specific steam workings now, rather than pot luck like it was 15 years ago.

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On the face of it this seems utterly bizarre, you've got a near captive audience for an hour, and quite a few of them will be less mobile and just want to sit around and have tea/cake/a sandwich while waiting for the return journey. I suppose you could generously interpret "does not include a substantive catering provision" as not ruling out some basic catering of some sort, but I'd like to know the reasoning behind this decision.

Three of us went there last September. It was lashing down so we sat down and had a cup of tea. The cafe was full to overflowing. If anything, more seating would be useful.

 

[bramling]

I find the whole Snowdon situation baffling. I would expect people who like mountains to enjoy the challenge and satisfaction of walking up.

“Look at me I went up Snowdon” (by train). Completely agree it’s a bit of a cop-out, and it’s quite annoying when you’ve stormed up on foot as fast as you can to then have to wait 20 minutes to cover the last few feet because a train has just discharged its contents!

But I guess for a good proportion of people they don’t have the fitness to do it on foot, and perhaps in some cases lack the capability to make the necessary arrangements to do it safely.

There is no certainly of a good view, though this summer has been good in that respect. I have been up four times. The first time I walked and it was sunny. I've been on the train three times, and it was cold and cloudy every time. For me, the attraction was the steam loco working hard, and it's good that they have specific steam workings now, rather than pot luck like it what 15 years ago.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 7 Sep 2025 ==


Three of us went there last September. It was lashing down so we sat down and had a cup of tea. The cafe was full to overflowing. If anything, more seating would be useful.

I’ve always thought SMR could be a bit better. For starters a lot of people seem to get stung with their car parking, although to be fair the car park opposite the station is nothing to do with the railway. But my main gripe would be that the modern carriages used on the diesel services are very utilitarian and don’t offer a great experience. The steam services are better.

 

[UP13]

“Look at me I went up Snowdon” (by train). Completely agree it’s a bit of a cop-out, and it’s quite annoying when you’ve stormed up on foot as fast as you can to then have to wait 20 minutes to cover the last few feet because a train has just discharged its contents!

In fairness I wanted to walk up, but my wife said the kids wouldn't be able to do it and insisted we want on the railway (I'd have rather not done it then go on the train as it was so expensive).

You have to book it so far in advance that you are gambling with the weather. All the steam trains were booked up and we got dreadful weather. A very expensive diesel trip packed in like sardines in an uncomfortable carriage with no view.

When we got to the top, despite the weather, I insisted we went to the actual summit just so we could actually have tje experience of being at the top even if we didn't climb it. Most of the passengers, able bodied or not, just stayed in the cafe. I couldn't get why you'd pay for a train to go that close to the top and then not even bother with the last few metres.

It was rammed and we had to stand in the cafe. We didn't mind as we had been sitting on a train, but we were annoyed with all the exhausted hikers, who were dripping wet and many of them shivering from the cold, arriving to find that there was no seating as all the train passengers were hogging all the seats.

 

[Falcon1200]

exhausted hikers, who were dripping wet and many of them shivering from the cold,

Exhausted, dripping wet and shivering from the cold; Perhaps this explains why people would rather take the train! Which I did, some years ago, was not bothered by the diesel haulage, nor did we find the carriage cramped or without a view (or at least, no more so than one would expect on a railway only able to run single coach trains).

 

[bramling]

In fairness I wanted to walk up, but my wife said the kids wouldn't be able to do it and insisted we want on the railway (I'd have rather not done it then go on the train as it was so expensive).

You have to book it so far in advance that you are gambling with the weather. All the steam trains were booked up and we got dreadful weather. A very expensive diesel trip packed in like sardines in an uncomfortable carriage with no view.

When we got to the top, despite the weather, I insisted we went to the actual summit just so we could actually have tje experience of being at the top even if we didn't climb it. Most of the passengers, able bodied or not, just stayed in the cafe. I couldn't get why you'd pay for a train to go that close to the top and then not even bother with the last few metres.

It was rammed and we had to stand in the cafe. We didn't mind as we had been sitting on a train, but we were annoyed with all the exhausted hikers, who were dripping wet and many of them shivering from the cold, arriving to find that there was no seating as all the train passengers were hogging all the seats.

The big problem with SMR, apart from the limited capacity, is that as you say it’s a total gamble on the weather if you pre-book.

Hence why it’s better to climb on foot, then you’re less tied down to a specific date and time. When we went on the railway we did so purely for the experience of riding the railway, so weren’t bothered about the weather, but as it happened it ended up being beautifully clear. As we were only on to ride the train, we didn’t even leave the station platform area!

The experience of descending at dusk and into night time by foot is magical, especially if you can stay at the summit late enough to experience it when few others are there. Doing Snowdon on foot is much better than the train for those able to do so.

 

[Bikeman78]

I’ve always thought SMR could be a bit better. For starters a lot of people seem to get stung with their car parking, although to be fair the car park opposite the station is nothing to do with the railway.

I would never use their car park again after Parking Eye tried to claim I'd overstayed. Luckily I kept the pay and display ticket and they gave up, but they kept trying for years.

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Exhausted, dripping wet and shivering from the cold; Perhaps this explains why people would rather take the train! Which I did, some years ago, was not bothered by the diesel haulage, nor did we find the carriage cramped or without a view (or at least, no more so than one would expect on a railway only able to run single coach trains).

The advantage with walking is that I can do something else or swap to a different day if the weather is poor. I wouldn't set off from Llanberis in bad weather though it can change on the way up.

 

[Belperpete]

The advantage with walking is that I can do something else or swap to a different day if the weather is poor. I wouldn't set off from Llanberis in bad weather though it can change on the way up.

If there is a cloud bank approaching from the other side of the mountain, it can change in minutes. The last time I rode the train down, it changed from blue sky and sunshine to thick fog with very poor visibility almost instantly.

 

[Krokodil]

If there is a cloud bank approaching from the other side of the mountain, it can change in minutes. The last time I rode the train down, it changed from blue sky and sunshine to thick fog with very poor visibility almost instantly.

And conversely what looks like a cloudy day from the bottom can turn out to be one of the most magical when viewed from 1,000m

 

[Bikeman78]

Personally, I find the use of big tender locomotives on what were small branch lines totally unrealistic. I remember the West Somerset in the dog days of BR steam when the services were hauled by pannier tanks, so I was most disappointed on my visit to the preserved line to find everything being hauled by hulking great tender locos as though everything was a through service from Paddington. Not only does a tender loco pulling a short rake of coaches look totally unrealistic, but also the big locos are pulling nothing like the load they were intended to pull, and consequently sounding nothing like a loco working hard.

Last year I visited the WSR a few times. Most trains were hauled by Manor class locos with six or seven coaches. They had to work hard on the climb to Crowcombe Heathfield in both directions. They seem ideal for the line.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 8 Sep 2025 ==

If there is a cloud bank approaching from the other side of the mountain, it can change in minutes. The last time I rode the train down, it changed from blue sky and sunshine to thick fog with very poor visibility almost instantly.

Each to their own. If I want to go up Snowdon on a steam train with my kids, that's 160 quid. I won't be doing that very often. I feel that one has a better chance of good weather if choosing on the day, or close to it, rather than booking weeks ahead.

 

[Wilts Wanderer]

Last year I visited the WSR a few times. Most trains were hauled by Manor class locos with six or seven coaches. They had to work hard on the climb to Crowcombe Heathfield in both directions. They seem ideal for the line.

A Manor or a Large Prairie are the ideal size of loco for the WSR operation today. Those who recall Pannier tanks probably forget that a ‘B set’ and a handful of passengers was the load whereas today a well loaded 6/7 coach rake of Mk1 coaches needs something a bit more beefy, and with a bigger supply of water as well!

(I would agree that anything bigger than a Manor is probably overkill. Seeing 4930 running on the SVR is great but it’s overkill. But then so is a Western, Warship, Peak or Class 50!)

 

[simonw]

When your railway runs across a coalfield, the existence of which was a major factor in that railway's construction,
but the coal you use on your heritage line is now sourced from Australia, China or Chile,
there is inevitably going to be a fiscal problem that the original builders never faced.

I'm not sure how many heritage railways run across former coal fields. Id be interested to see your list.

 

[Wilts Wanderer]

I doubt the financial model of any heritage railway today even remotely resembles the business justification to build the line in the first place, 100-200 years ago?!

 

[D6130]

I'm not sure how many heritage railways run across former coal fields. Id be interested to see your list.

Severn Valley
Radstock
Foxfield
Chasewater
Tanfield
Doon Valley
Bo'ness & Kinneill
Middleton
East Lancs
East Kent

.....to name but a few.

 

[Dr Hoo]

I'm not sure how many heritage railways run across former coal fields. Id be interested to see your list.

There are some obvious candidates. Severn Valley, Tanfield, East Kent, Blaenavon and Bo’ness had mines along their length.

More generally Somerset, Lancashire, Llangollen, Battlefield, Dean Forest spring to mind.

Narrow gauge has Brecon Mountain for a start (but perhaps not strictly ‘heritage’).

This is not intended to be exhaustive. [Edit: just beaten to it anyway.]

 

[Bikeman78]

A Manor or a Large Prairie are the ideal size of loco for the WSR operation today. Those who recall Pannier tanks probably forget that a ‘B set’ and a handful of passengers was the load whereas today a well loaded 6/7 coach rake of Mk1 coaches needs something a bit more beefy, and with a bigger supply of water as well!

(I would agree that anything bigger than a Manor is probably overkill. Seeing 4930 running on the SVR is great but it’s overkill. But then so is a Western, Warship, Peak or Class 50!)

To be fair, the Severn Valley puts its Pannier tank on decent loads, at least load six. The climb from Bewdley past the safari park to the tunnel is great fun.

 

[simonw]

Severn Valley
Radstock
Foxfield
Chasewater
Tanfield
Doon Valley
Bo'ness & Kinneill
Middleton
East Lancs
East Kent

.....to name but a few.

And which of those produced steam coal?