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Ideas for cascading ScotRail DMUs following introduction of new EMU/BEMU stock

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Nym

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All of this talk of rail vs road batteries.

I feel the need to just point out...

Safety standards.

Road batteries are not held to the same set of high standards as rail batteries.
Remember that road transport is a largely self regulated industry.
 
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Vexed

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Rannoch and Crianlarich have TPWS Grids, which require electricity; where does the power come from to supply the uninterruptible power supply?
Rannoch has a 33kV line running near it from Rannoch Substation (132kV there) / Rannoch Power Station (44MW Hydroelectric).

Crianlarich is right next to a two small hydro stations, and has a 132kV transmission line following along the railway.

So both could easily support a trickle charged battery to then fast charge trains. I assume Crianlarich will have 11kV lines around but if this isn't enough a new 132kV connection at Crianlarich might not make economical sense, especially as battery tech will only continue to improve.
 

N1

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All of this talk of rail vs road batteries.

I feel the need to just point out...

Safety standards.

Road batteries are not held to the same set of high standards as rail batteries.
Remember that road transport is a largely self regulated industry.
Yutong GTe14s use LFP (Lithium Iron Phosphate), which is generally safer than the LTO (Lithium Titanium Oxide) - NMC (Nickel Manganese Cobalt) combination batteries that are already in place in 777s.
 

43096

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An Ember Coach is an electric coach, they too are gauge limited in size length, width and height to fit on UK roads.

24 tonnes of coach including 300+ mile battery plus 50 passengers.

A class 156 has a 215kW engine, so that's powerful enough to move a 38 tonne coach on the WHL. So one Embar coach battery would be enough to run a single 215kW motor, for 2.5 hours, and two Embar Coach batteries would be enough to run a 215kW at electric motor at maximum power continuously for 5 hours.

I'm not even sure if the 215kW on the plate of a diesel engine in a train is the output power.
The engine rating is engine output.

You also need to factor in auxiliary loads for HVAC, lighting, cab equipment etc. This will be more than a 156 (which from memory used waste heat recovered from the engine for heating) and is also likely to be heavier, too.
 

hwl

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Yutong GTe14s use LFP (Lithium Iron Phosphate), which is generally safer than the LTO (Lithium Titanium Oxide) - NMC (Nickel Manganese Cobalt) combination batteries that are already in place in 777s.
Are the 777 a combination? I thought the first attempt at battery by Stadler was NMC but they later revised this to ABB LTO batteries? (after learning the hard way!)

The battery Li battery technology safety (and cost!) hierarchy is usually:
LTO > LFP > NMC
 

stevieinselby

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An Ember Coach is an electric coach, they too are gauge limited in size length, width and height to fit on UK roads.

24 tonnes of coach including 300+ mile battery plus 50 passengers.
A standard coach has a lot more scope to be made larger and still fit within the requirements of UK roads than a standard train does, short of lengthening the train and having a class 210 or class 755 style power pack taking up passenger accommodation. This makes it easier to fit large batteries to a coach than to a train.
How? The constraints on West Highland Line journey times are the geography of the route and the single line, not the type of train in use.
While the route does have a very pedestrian linespeed in places, my gut feeling from riding the line was that the class 156s spend a fair chunk of time running well below the linespeed due to its limited ability to accelerate uphill, and so it wouldn't surprise me if a BEMU could get up to speed quicker.
 

N1

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Are the 777 a combination? I thought the first attempt at battery by Stadler was NMC but they later revised this to ABB LTO batteries? (after learning the hard way!)

The battery Li battery technology safety (and cost!) hierarchy is usually:
LTO > LFP > NMC
Yes, I think you are right, not too familiar with them. LTO is only really needed where you have small battery packs for big motors, like 777s. If you have enough battery chains in parallel, then you don't need the high charge/discharge currents available with LTO.
 

hwl

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Yes, I think you are right, not too familiar with them. LTO is only really needed where you have small battery packs for big motors, like 777s. If you have enough battery chains in parallel, then you don't need the high charge/discharge currents available with LTO.
LTO also is makes fireproofing some what easier (see @Nym 's comment above) and it also seems to have less degradation per cycle (either large or micro cycle e.g. a regenerative braking into a station and accelerate afterwards) than other technologies.
 

AlastairFraser

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Maybe renewable power and/or a grid supply would be a good idea.

Rannoch and Crianlarich have TPWS Grids, which require electricity; where does the power come from to supply the uninterruptible power supply?
There's plenty of renewable power available in Scotland, but a new grid supply to an area that doesn't have it wouldn't make economic sense at all, and any new major electricity infrastructure in remote parts of the Highlands may also be opposed by local communities on visual impact grounds.
Rural Scotland is especially well suited for hydrogen production and storage as there is lots of surplus renewable energy in the off-peak from offshore wind turbines and there is also lots of surplus fresh water (which you need for electrolysis to produce hydrogen for fuel cells).
 

Falcon1200

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Not sure if your area has switched to any electric buses

My area has indeed switched to electric buses, but not entirely - One route is as likely to be a diesel as an electric vehicle. The journey times are no different, the governing factors being other than the type of vehicle used - Just as with the West Highland Line!
 

The exile

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When considering the battery capacity needed for the length of the 3 big Scottish lines, one should also consider the reserves needed to cope with the kind of winters we may still get despite global warming. Being stuck in a snowdrift on Rannoch Moor with only an hour or so of battery left wouldn’t be much fun. I know diesel will run out eventually, but I doubt a diesel would be sent out over the moor in winter with only 20 gallons more than it needed to get to the Fort.
 

BlueLeanie

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When considering the battery capacity needed for the length of the 3 big Scottish lines, one should also consider the reserves needed to cope with the kind of winters we may still get despite global warming. Being stuck in a snowdrift on Rannoch Moor with only an hour or so of battery left wouldn’t be much fun. I know diesel will run out eventually, but I doubt a diesel would be sent out over the moor in winter with only 20 gallons more than it needed to get to the Fort.

How are you defining an "hour" of battery?

A 156 has a 215kW engine, so I'd expect a similar BEMU with an "hour of battery" to be 215kWh or more. So with a 5kW blower, and LED lighting, surely the battery would last almost two days? Not forgetting that unless the air intakes are kept well cleared whilst trapped stationary in a blizzard, a diesel engine will have to be shut down anyway.

A kWh of energy is a kWh of energy whether that's Diesel or Battery.
 

BerkshireRails

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There's plenty of renewable power available in Scotland, but a new grid supply to an area that doesn't have it wouldn't make economic sense at all, and any new major electricity infrastructure in remote parts of the Highlands may also be opposed by local communities on visual impact grounds.
Rannoch has a 33kV line running near it from Rannoch Substation (132kV there) / Rannoch Power Station (44MW Hydroelectric).

Crianlarich is right next to a two small hydro stations, and has a 132kV transmission line following along the railway.

So both could easily support a trickle charged battery to then fast charge trains. I assume Crianlarich will have 11kV lines around but if this isn't enough a new 132kV connection at Crianlarich might not make economical sense, especially as battery tech will only continue to improve.
As Vexed has stated, a grid connection is nearby to both Rannoch and Crainlarich for the TPWS equipment; a buried grid connection will be aesthetically less obtrusive than a decently sized renewable site to produce the required power output to trickle charge the battery banks.
 

The exile

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How are you defining an "hour" of battery?

A 156 has a 215kW engine, so I'd expect a similar BEMU with an "hour of battery" to be 215kWh or more. So with a 5kW blower, and LED lighting, surely the battery would last almost two days? Not forgetting that unless the air intakes are kept well cleared whilst trapped stationary in a blizzard, a diesel engine will have to be shut down anyway.

A kWh of energy is a kWh of energy whether that's Diesel or
Ok - I’ll put it differently. Any train heading north from Glasgow or Inverness needs to be able to reach its destination on the charge it starts with despite conditions meaning that power drain is higher than usual and still have enough to provide full “hotel power” for (say) 12 hours on top of that. When that’s been proved possible, then I’m ok with it.
 

Trainbike46

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It just means the units will need significantly larger/more batteries in the BEMUs for the West Highland/Far North lines - which is perfectly possible, even if it involves having batteries above the floor level.
 
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BerkshireRails

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It just means the units for these lines will need significantly larger/more batteries to the BEMUs for the West Highland/Far North lines - which is perfectly possible, even if it involves having batteries above the floor level.
Considering Scotrail have to run seven-car Sprinters to provide enough capacity in the summer, I don't think that will be an attractive option to put batteries above the floor.
From tomorrow (Tuesday, 11 March), ScotRail will operate seven-carriage trains between Glasgow and Crianlarich, and five-carriage trains between Crianlarich and Fort William.

The improvements have been made possible due to the completion of platform extension works by Network Rail, which now allow the train operator to make better use of its Highland Explorer carriages. The use of active travel carriages had previously been restricted on services due to platform length limitations.

ScotRail will also begin its summer service strengthening tomorrow, earlier than in previous years. Traditionally starting from the last weekend in March, this year summer strengthening will start on 11 March to accommodate increased demand.
 

ac6000cw

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When considering the battery capacity needed for the length of the 3 big Scottish lines, one should also consider the reserves needed to cope with the kind of winters we may still get despite global warming. Being stuck in a snowdrift on Rannoch Moor with only an hour or so of battery left wouldn’t be much fun. I know diesel will run out eventually, but I doubt a diesel would be sent out over the moor in winter with only 20 gallons more than it needed to get to the Fort.
How often does a train get stuck in a snowdrift on Rannoch Moor?
 

BlueLeanie

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Ok - I’ll put it differently. Any train heading north from Glasgow or Inverness needs to be able to reach its destination on the charge it starts with despite conditions meaning that power drain is higher than usual and still have enough to provide full “hotel power” for (say) 12 hours on top of that. When that’s been proved possible, then I’m ok with it.
Twelve hours.

So you're saying about 65kWh of energy or 15% of the battery in reserve.

The toilets will be medieval and the tanks full or frozen within 4 hours of being stationary anyway.
 

Brubulus

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Batteries are entirely doable for all lines in Scotland, with relatively limited infrastructure. (fast chargers at Mallaig, Oban and Fort William)
A reasonable estimate of consumption for such a low speed route, taking into account regenerative braking, is around 2kwh per vehicle mile. Being around 140 miles from Craigendoran to Fort William, it is entirely doable for any battery capacity upwards of 400kw per carriage, not to mention charging opportunities at Fort William or Crianlarich.
 

AlastairFraser

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Batteries are entirely doable for all lines in Scotland, with relatively limited infrastructure. (fast chargers at Mallaig, Oban and Fort William)
A reasonable estimate of consumption for such a low speed route, taking into account regenerative braking, is around 2kwh per vehicle mile. Being around 140 miles from Craigendoran to Fort William, it is entirely doable for any battery capacity upwards of 400kw per carriage, not to mention charging opportunities at Fort William or Crianlarich.
Of course you could with the suitable infrastructure, but is it the easiest and cheapest option?
 

Bantamzen

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I don't know whether Northern or GWR will be interested in taking Scotrail's 156s as an interim measure, but I'm sure there will be plenty of happy homes awaiting any 158s or 170s that are surplus to requirements.
I'd hope Northern would perhaps take a look at the 156s too, at least until the new units are ordered and delivered. Even if they were just to strengthen services, there's plenty of routes were I'm sure they could be utilised.
 

BlueLeanie

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Of course you could with the suitable infrastructure, but is it the easiest and cheapest option?
It's a matter of defining what is easy in the rail industry. Millions of passengers journeys are being thwarted right now whilst the unions and Government argue about who pushed a button on E-W.

Goodness knows how anyone would cope using the same charging cable that they use to charge their car to connect to a train at the buffers!

So, simplest option is to close the line and let Chinese made buses run from Buchanan Street.

Least resistance from Unions would be to electrify to Oban and have passengers change to a diesel unit at Crianlarich.
 

MattRat

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All of this talk of rail vs road batteries.

I feel the need to just point out...

Safety standards.

Road batteries are not held to the same set of high standards as rail batteries.
Remember that road transport is a largely self regulated industry.
Something else missed is lifespans. Electric road vehicles have roughly 5-10 years before battery degregation becomes too much and you have to buy a new one. Rail vehicles have to have a lifespan of at least 40 years.

Maybe you don't replace the whole unit and find a way to just replace batteries, but that still ends up being very expensive in the long run, and it would be a new system for rail vehicles we don't have yet, adding to the base cost.

If rail batteries need more range between charging points, it's best to just use a range extender diesel generator while stopped at stations, which is also useful in an emergency
 

BlueLeanie

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Something else missed is lifespans. Electric road vehicles have roughly 5-10 years before battery degregation becomes too much and you have to buy a new one. Rail vehicles have to have a lifespan of at least 40 years.

Maybe you don't replace the whole unit and find a way to just replace batteries, but that still ends up being very expensive in the long run, and it would be a new system for rail vehicles we don't have yet, adding to the base cost.

If rail batteries need more range between charging points, it's best to just use a range extender diesel generator while stopped at stations, which is also useful in an emergency

Tesla batteries should still have 80% of their original capacity after 10 years.

HSTs had their Valentia engines removed and replaced with MTU units before they hit 40. Modern modular methods of construction mean that engines are dropped out and replaced with a different module (or even a battery!) as part of standard maintenance. Think of aircraft, the engines are usually under a completely separate leasing arrangement from the rest of the plane.

Plugging in a diesel generator at stations is just silly when a battery can have an equal level of kWh as a diesel tank.
 

BerkshireRails

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Maybe you don't replace the whole unit and find a way to just replace batteries, but that still ends up being very expensive in the long run, and it would be a new system for rail vehicles we don't have yet, adding to the base cost.
The batteries are mounted on rafts which can be easily replaced.
 

AlastairFraser

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As Vexed has stated, a grid connection is nearby to both Rannoch and Crainlarich for the TPWS equipment; a buried grid connection will be aesthetically less obtrusive than a decently sized renewable site to produce the required power output to trickle charge the battery banks.
Sure it will, but there is a solution on the market with no rural electrification and large battery units needed!
It's a matter of defining what is easy in the rail industry. Millions of passengers journeys are being thwarted right now whilst the unions and Government argue about who pushed a button on E-W.

Goodness knows how anyone would cope using the same charging cable that they use to charge their car to connect to a train at the buffers!

So, simplest option is to close the line and let Chinese made buses run from Buchanan Street.
:lol: :lol: :lol:
Least resistance from Unions would be to electrify to Oban and have passengers change to a diesel unit at Crianlarich.
I don't think the unions would object to any new unit plans for the WHL, if I'm entirely honest.

Any form of bi-mode or pure electric traction would be an upgrade.
 

GusB

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As Vexed has stated, a grid connection is nearby to both Rannoch and Crainlarich for the TPWS equipment; a buried grid connection will be aesthetically less obtrusive than a decently sized renewable site to produce the required power output to trickle charge the battery banks.
Are you at all familiar with any of these sites? I'm not familiar with Crianlarich, but I have been to Rannoch a few times and there are quite a few hydro-electric power stations within easy reach. Google maps says that it's just over 10km from Rannoch railway station to Rannoch substation. Other than the "big" grid connections, everything else is on wooden (or composite) poles and they fit into the landscape quite well.

Something else missed is lifespans. Electric road vehicles have roughly 5-10 years before battery degregation becomes too much and you have to buy a new one. Rail vehicles have to have a lifespan of at least 40 years.

Maybe you don't replace the whole unit and find a way to just replace batteries, but that still ends up being very expensive in the long run, and it would be a new system for rail vehicles we don't have yet, adding to the base cost.
While replacing batteries is expensive (at the moment), you're completely overlooking the fact that diesel engines have lots of moving parts and they require frequent maintenance. Electric transmissions have far fewer moving parts.

If rail batteries need more range between charging points, it's best to just use a range extender diesel generator while stopped at stations, which is also useful in an emergency
A range-entending engine is intended to be on the vehicle, so it would be able to re-charge the batteries on the move. I don't see the point when battery technology is advancing at such a rate that it will be soon be possible for trains to complete a whole leg without re-charging halfway.
 

BlueLeanie

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Are you at all familiar with any of these sites? I'm not familiar with Crianlarich, but I have been to Rannoch a few times and there are quite a few hydro-electric power stations within easy reach. Google maps says that it's just over 10km from Rannoch railway station to Rannoch substation. Other than the "big" grid connections, everything else is on wooden (or composite) poles and they fit into the landscape quite well.

I'm not sure if you have to be overly familiar with the locations.

There's a (broken) 50kW charger at Crianlarich.
A Tesla Supercharger with 250kW connection close to Fort William Station
A planned Tesla Supercharger at Tyndrum
Roybridge has a 50kW charger.
Dozens of chargers in Oban

Take a look at the attached link which shows where chargers can be found across the UK, there won't be many high Amp charge locations that aren't grid connected.. https://www.zap-map.com/live/

People who use cars and buses seem to have moved on and embraced batteries and electricity. I'm not sure why there is such range anxiety and fear of units being stuck in snow drifts. In today's risk averse Scotrail the trains are cancelled in bad weather anyway.
 
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