The Labour Party under Andy Burnham

[brad465]

If Prince Andrew has been cancelled over his links to Epstein, after his conviction, and quiet rightly so.
I can not see why Mandelson won't, I suspect there is a lot more correspondence to come out. If someone is found guilty of child abusive as Epstein was, what was going through Mandelson's mind to send notes to say 'we will fight this together'
When he does go, which he will have to, this will be the fourth person Sir Kier Starmer had full confidence in before their eventual departure.

Football club gives "full confidence" to manager a week before manager is sacked.

If it were possible to split Mandelson into two people and put the Mandelson who is a canny and smart political mind into one, and the sleazy scandal-ridden Mandelson into another (and into jail), then the former would have been a superb diplomat. However this isn't possible, and thus he shouldn't have returned to government in an official role.

The only reason I can see why he's clinging on to his position is that the scandal that he's embroiled in is the very same scandal that Trump is embroiled in. So having an ambassador in the same boat could be seen as being beneficial in helping to ingratiate us with Trump, whilst sacking him for being involved in that scandal could be seen as a slight against Trump.

Because I cannot see any other good reason why you wouldn't sack him for coming out with stuff like this:

Mandelson did actually warn that there is more to come out, so he's obviously trying to absolve himself and avoid covering up. In some cases that works, but association with a convicted sex offender is not one of them. If Mandelson does go however expect Trump to disappear from public view again, as the resultant sweating removes all his makeup and makes him too embarrassed to be seen in public (while also being on the phone to Prince Andrew asking for advice on how not to sweat).

 

[jfollows]

UK politics: No 10 says Starmer found Mandelson’s emails to Epstein ‘reprehensible’ – as it happened

Despite being repeatedly asked, No 10 declines to say the PM was ‘misled’ by Mandelson

www.theguardian.com

There will be an urgent question in the Commons at 10.30am on Peter Mandelson. The Speaker has granted a question tabled by the Conservative Neil O’Brien asking a Foreign Office minister to make a statement “on the process for the appointment of the United Kingdom’s ambassador to the United States”.

Mandelson’s a strange one, a former political Machiavelli, a lot of what he’s said more recently makes a lot of sense, but he constantly demonstrates really poor judgment.

 

[DarloRich]

The only reason I can see why he's clinging on to his position is that the scandal that he's embroiled in is the very same scandal that Trump is embroiled in. So having an ambassador in the same boat could be seen as being beneficial in helping to ingratiate us with Trump, whilst sacking him for being involved in that scandal could be seen as a slight against Trump.

I can see why they want to keep him in place - he does seem quite good at managing Trump! His personal judgement is appalling mind!

 

[jfollows]

Yes, he’s been sacked.
By the response to the urgent question just now.
Because of the further letters that have now emerged (at least that’s the excuse).

"In light of the additional information in emails written by Peter Mandelson, the Prime Minister has asked the Foreign Secretary to withdraw him as Ambassador.

"The emails show that the depth and extent of Peter Mandelson’s relationship with Jeffrey Epstein is materially different from that known at the time of his appointment.

"In particular Peter Mandelson’s suggestion that Jeffrey Epstein’s first conviction was wrongful and should be challenged is new information. In light of that, and mindful of the victims of Epstein’s crimes he has been withdrawn as Ambassador with immediate effect."

 

[DarloRich]

Yes, he’s been sacked.
By the response to the urgent question just now.
Because of the further letters that have now emerged (at lesst that’s the excuse).

unsurprising - It had to happen

 

[45Fox]

Mandelson’s a strange one, a former political Machiavelli, a lot of what he’s said more recently makes a lot of sense, but he constantly demonstrates really poor judgment.
[/QUOTE]

I agree with you on this.
"Constantly demonstrates really poor judgement" is really not an attribute you would want the UK ambassador to the USA to possess during the current crises the world faces and taking into account the makeup of the present US administration.

 

[styles]

Inevitable. If he'd cut ties with Epstein as soon as his affairs were brought to light, he might be fine. But even during Epstein's investigation on child sex charges, Mandelson was communicating with him. Rather than merely offering an ear to bend if he thought he was innocent, Mandelson sent weird messages advocating for early release and saying he'll always love him. I mean, I'm no diplomat, but even I know that's going to come back to bite.

 

[J663738]

Well, better late than never. Yesterday, I could not see how he wouldn't be sacked. I assumed they were waiting for him to "resign" which he didn't want to do and gave that sweet heart interview to the Sun.

 

[45Fox]

Yes, he’s been sacked.
By the response to the urgent question just now.
Because of the further letters that have now emerged (at least that’s the excuse).

Not surprising really.

 

[styles]

Mandelson’s a strange one, a former political Machiavelli, a lot of what he’s said more recently makes a lot of sense, but he constantly demonstrates really poor judgment.

"Constantly demonstrates really poor judgement" is really not an attribute you would want the UK ambassador to the USA to possess during the current crises the world faces and taking into account the makeup of the present US administration.

Ambassadors ought to be quite boring, frankly. They shouldn't find themselves in the press for poor judgement because they should avoid straying into the territory of communicating with people well-founded criminal investigations for child sex offences, or for telling black humour jokes, or for expressing political opinions other than those which the state they represent expects them to.

You can get away with light-hearted humour and having something of a personality, someone like William Hague, but not Mandelson. Exceptionally poor judgement to write to a suspect child sex offender and support their early release and tell you you love them.

 

[jfollows]

Question asked but not answered on whether Mandelson will lose the Labour whip in the House of Lords.

 

[Gloster]

Mandelson was a very good choice if you wanted someone who could smarm Trump: no one smarms like him. But it was a risk as he just has so much baggage.

 

[gg1]

UK politics: No 10 says Starmer found Mandelson’s emails to Epstein ‘reprehensible’ – as it happened

Despite being repeatedly asked, No 10 declines to say the PM was ‘misled’ by Mandelson

www.theguardian.com

Mandelson’s a strange one, a former political Machiavelli, a lot of what he’s said more recently makes a lot of sense, but he constantly demonstrates really poor judgment.

He's not the only one.

Mandelson's friendship with Epstein was well known long before his current appointment, even if Mandelson neglected to declare the existence of these messages, it's still incredibly short sighted of Starmer to not consider the possibility that there may have been more to their friendship than Mandelson was letting on.

 

[Tetchytyke]

It's an interesting one.

Unlike all the others who have been swept up in the scandal (Prince Andrew, Jes Slaley, Bill Clinton, Lex Werner, Bill Gates, Trump himself), Mandelson fairly obviously doesn't share Epstein's particular tastes. All the others fairly clearly did share his tastes. Prince Andrew shared them so much that he paid millions to the late Virginia Guiffre, a woman he'd apparently never met. Lex Werner's behaviour is pretty notorious, even for the fashion industry. I'm surprised there hasn't been more mud thrown at Clinton from the MAGA lot.

I can only assume that Mandelson's interest was purely about the money and the introductions that Epstein could make for him. The question really is: did he know what Epstein was up to and turn a blind eye, or was he hoodwinked? Epstein was a very smooth operator, I can believe Mandelson genuinely was clueless and genuinely did think that Epstein had been stitched up.

His position was clearly untenable though. Rightly sacked.

 

[styles]

I can only assume that Mandelson's interest was purely about the money and the introductions that Epstein could make for him. The question really is: did he know what Epstein was up to and turn a blind eye, or was he hoodwinked? Epstein was a very smooth operator, I can believe Mandelson genuinely was clueless and genuinely did think that Epstein had been stitched up.

Well Mandelson wrote to Epstein saying Epstein should push for an early release and that he would always love him, after his arrest investigating child sex offences.

It would be one thing to say to somebody under investigation, "If you're truly innocent, I'm here to talk if you need support."; a whole other to write to him to say, "I think the world of you and I feel hopeless and furious about what has happened.", or after he was found guilty, to write to him and say, "The whole thing has been years of torture and now you have to show the world how big a person you are, and how strong."

These are things I wouldn't even write if my brother/sister/mother/father was found guilty of child sex offences to be quite honest. I might write to them to say I hope they get the help they need, but I wouldn't tell them they need to show the world how strong they are. It's bizarre.

 

[brad465]

If Mandelson does go however expect Trump to disappear from public view again, as the resultant sweating removes all his makeup and makes him too embarrassed to be seen in public (while also being on the phone to Prince Andrew asking for advice on how not to sweat).

Now Mandelson has gone this morning, Trump will probably be quietly grateful the Kirk shooting is dominating the news, as the Mandelson dismissal would ultimately lead to a lot of questions being asked of Trump otherwise.

 

[J663738]

Reported in the Telegraph:
"Sir Keir Starmer's Government blocked the release of a secret memo revealing Lord Mandelson urged Sir Tony Blair to meet Jeffrey Epstein."

If this is true, then Kier Starmer knew a lot more about Mandelson's links to Epstein than he is currently saying. I presume the next stage is to kick it into the long grass, some sort of enquiry is probably on the cards.

 

[Tetchytyke]

Well Mandelson wrote to Epstein saying Epstein should push for an early release and that he would always love him, after his arrest investigating child sex offences.

That's partly why I'm inclined to believe Mandelson didn't know what Epstein was up to and that Mandelson genuinely did think Epstein had been stitched up. It's not the sort of thing you would write unless you genuinely believed the person was innocent.

 

[styles]

That's partly why I'm inclined to believe Mandelson didn't know what Epstein was up to and that Mandelson genuinely did think Epstein had been stitched up. It's not the sort of thing you would write unless you genuinely believed the person was innocent.

But he then continued to write letters to Epstein after he was found guilty?

Surely Mandelson believes in the courts which found him guilty. At that point you'd cut contact, or minimise it to saying I hope you get the help you need. Especially if you're a high-profile politician.

For what it's worth, Mandelson has publicly condemned Epstein's actions since, so I'm not convinced he thought it was a stitch up so late in proceedings.

 

[Tetchytyke]

But he then continued to write letters to Epstein after he was found guilty?

Surely Mandelson believes in the courts which found him guilty.

I'm not sure how much faith I'd put in the US justice system!

For what it's worth, Mandelson has publicly condemned Epstein's actions since, so I'm not convinced he thought it was a stitch up so late in proceedings.

There were two proceedings- the ones in the 2008 or so when Epstein got little more than a slap on the wrist (remember Epstein was allowed out of prison for 12 hours a day to run his business, which is unusual for a convicted sex offender) and then the later ones in 2018 or so. I can believe Mandelson disregarded the first one but changed his mind after the second.

I'm going to phrase this carefully as I'm not a conspiracy loon, but also don't disregard the shared heritage between Epstein and Mandelson when considering how Mandelson might interpret things.

Mandelson's rightly been sacked, mind.

 

[styles]

I'm not sure how much faith I'd put in the US justice system!

Well, I agree it's far from perfect, and too political for my liking, but in cases like this I expect it delivers the right decisions far more often than not.

There were two proceedings- the ones in the 2008 or so when Epstein got little more than a slap on the wrist (remember Epstein was allowed out of prison for 12 hours a day to run his business, which is unusual for a convicted sex offender) and then the later ones in 2018 or so. I can believe Mandelson disregarded the first one but changed his mind after the second.

I'm going to phrase this carefully as I'm not a conspiracy loon, but also don't disregard the shared heritage between Epstein and Mandelson when considering how Mandelson might interpret things.

Yeah I can see this point of view. I just think, especially if I was a high-profile politician, after the first conviction, even on the 'minor' side of the offending, and whether I believed it to be the right verdict or not, I would phrase my messages to the defendant quite differently. It's possible to offer support without using languages which appears to praise the person to the extent Mandelson did.

 

[rapmastaj]

That's partly why I'm inclined to believe Mandelson didn't know what Epstein was up to and that Mandelson genuinely did think Epstein had been stitched up. It's not the sort of thing you would write unless you genuinely believed the person was innocent.

In Epstein's 50th birthday book, Mandelson wrote:

“...Or in one of his glorious homes he likes to share with his friends (yum yum) …”

Mandelson knew exactly what Epstein was up to.

 

[styles]

In Epstein's 50th birthday book, Mandelson wrote:

“...Or in one of his glorious homes he likes to share with his friends (yum yum) …”

Mandelson knew exactly what Epstein was up to.

Why do people write such creepy stuff, especially when they're high profile politicians? It's just bizarre.

 

[jfollows]

Why do people write such creepy stuff, especially when they're high profile politicians? It's just bizarre.

A lot of politicians act as if they are immune from things that affect “normal people”, sad to say. I think once they get in a position of determining legislation they think they’re better than us. By the end of a government’s life, be it Labour or Conservative, they’re just about all at it.

 

[J663738]

In Epstein's 50th birthday book, Mandelson wrote:

“...Or in one of his glorious homes he likes to share with his friends (yum yum) …”

Mandelson knew exactly what Epstein was up to.

Sheds a whole new light on the 'Lord Mandelson of Rio' jibe from 1998, at the time everyone around Mandelson denied the story that was reported in Punch, all except Peter Mandelson that is!

Punch's Deputy Editor, Dominic Murphy, is standing by the story.

He said: "A man with 25 years' experience of journalism came up with the story, impeccably sourced in our opinion, and we stand by it. And the fact Mr Dowle denies it and Mr Mandelson's silence remains deafening proves nothing."

 

[styles]

Bridget Phillipson is looking to be the frontrunner.

Generally boring, and probably not holding the positions to swoon Reform voters on immigration policies.

 

[45Fox]

You can get away with light-hearted humour and having something of a personality, someone like William Hague, but not Mandelson. Exceptionally poor judgement to write to a suspect child sex offender and support their early release and tell you you love them.

Bridget Phillipson is looking to be the frontrunner.

Generally boring, and probably not holding the positions to swoon Reform voters on immigration policies.

In the current overall circumstances that the world is in, boring is undoubtedly good.
Whilst most definitely not a supporter of the Conservative party, the suggestion of William Hague is a good one. The right mixture of gravitas and, as you say, light-hearted humour; plus he has experience of diplomacy as a former Foreign Secretary.

 

[rapmastaj]

Bridget Phillipson is looking to be the frontrunner.

Generally boring, and probably not holding the positions to swoon Reform voters on immigration policies.

Ever less voices who might be willing to challenge the direction Starmer is taking us in.

 

[DarloRich]

Generally boring, and probably not holding the positions to swoon Reform voters on immigration policies.

that is what the new home secretary is for - she is pretty firm on immigration and law and order matters ( Yvette Cooper was seen, apparently, to be moving to slow on this which think is unfair. Happy she is still in cabinet though. )

Ever less voices who might be willing to challenge the direction Starmer is taking us in.

What direction is that?

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

He's not the only one.

Mandelson's friendship with Epstein was well known long before his current appointment, even if Mandelson neglected to declare the existence of these messages, it's still incredibly short sighted of Starmer to not consider the possibility that there may have been more to their friendship than Mandelson was letting on.

Starmer needs to take long look around himself about whether some of his advisers are really on his side with all these appointments going sour so quickly. He needs somebody he can trust implicitly to rake over anybody connected with government to find any more skeletons before he squanders the biggest opportunity the country has had in a generation to reset the country.