December 2025 East Coast Timetable

[Starmill]

Cambridge South and the changes north of York get wrapped up in the same timetable change because the railway has lost the capacity and capability to do them separately.

Again, this really isn't true. The entire purpose of the Event Steering Group implementing this change over a long timeframe is to expand the capability of the industry to deliver these changes. A change that was far smaller in scale was what was needed for this.

Glad to see though that you've accepted your mistake from earlier though in saying that Cambridge South is the primary driver of the changes north of York and elsewhere.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 10 Sep 2025 ==

That is something I am well well aware of...

Do you have a point you wish to make or are you just flexing?

 

[Bald Rick]

AIUI the objectives of this timetable change are numerous. Bear in mind the timetable has had several false starts. For examl,e:

* More seats daily on the LNER services
* shorter journey times London - York - Newcastle - Edinburgh
* new hourly fast Sheffield - Leeds
* more services Newcastle - Middlesbrough via the Durham coast
* new servcies Newcastle - Ashington
* ability to call trains at Cambridge South
* protect existing freight capacity
* significantly increased net revenue to the industry

and, more technically:
* more standardised timings
* reduced pathing time
* improved (as in more accurate) Sectional Running Times, junction margins, etc


There’s more than this but thats what I can remember off the top of my head.

 

[mangyiscute]

On the latest figures (2023/24), if you count Wakefield, Leeds and Harrogate as a single destination from King's Cross (not unreasonable, since they're the same trains), it was easily the largest figure, exceeding Edinburgh by 25% and York by 40%.

So how are you going to adjust fleet use? The 800/1 diagrams interwork, as they have for a while, covering services that require bi-modes between KX-Harrogate and KX-North of Edinburgh, whilst if you take 801/2s off the ECML to increase capacity to West Yorkshire, what are you replacing them with?

How does it compare to York, Newcastle and Edinburgh combined? Also add in all of the stations in Scotland and the north east that will connect onto london trains there (far more stations than in West Yorkshire). You can't compare apples to oranges this is a daft comment.

 

[ainsworth74]

* more services Newcastle - Middlesbrough via the Durham coast

Yes it's nice that the semi-fast goes hourly from December (to go with the existing hourly all-stops) and runs later into the evening as well I have to say. Big win for the Durham Coast which has been extremely successful in recent years with even four-car trains loading very well and two-car trains often being full and standing throughout (and leaving people behind I think on some occasions!).

 

[xotGD]

How does it compare to York, Newcastle and Edinburgh combined? Also add in all of the stations in Scotland and the north east that will connect onto london trains there (far more stations than in West Yorkshire). You can't compare apples to oranges this is a daft comment.

You can't use York and Newcastle numbers to justify increasing capacity to Edinburgh.

Somehow the West Yorkshire numbers are justifying a reduction in capacity to Leeds.

 

[Starmill]

Yes it's nice that the semi-fast goes hourly from December (to go with the existing hourly all-stops) and runs later into the evening as well I have to say. Big win for the Durham Coast which has been extremely successful in recent years with even four-car trains loading very well and two-car trains often being full and standing throughout (and leaving people behind I think on some occasions!).

Absolutely. It's the same with the Leeds - Sheffield services.

 

[D1537]

How does it compare to York, Newcastle and Edinburgh combined? Also add in all of the stations in Scotland and the north east that will connect onto london trains there (far more stations than in West Yorkshire). You can't compare apples to oranges this is a daft comment.

Not really, because it was in reply to someone comparing York and Edinburgh loading with West Yorkshire loading.

Also, I think you will find that Kings Cross-Edinburgh trains do not call at "all the stations in Scotland and the North East" whereas Leeds and Harrogate trains do all call at Wakefield and Leeds.

 

[mangyiscute]

Not really, because it was in reply to someone comparing York and Edinburgh loading with West Yorkshire loading.

Also, I think you will find that Kings Cross-Edinburgh trains do not call at "all the stations in Scotland and the North East" whereas Leeds and Harrogate trains do all call at Wakefield and Leeds.

The Leeds trains service Wakefield, Leeds and occasionally Harrogate. The Edinburgh trains serve York, Newcastle and sometimes Darlington, Durham etc. Therefore if you want to compare the number travelling on each service, it makes sense to compare the total number from all of those stations.

Your comment literally says that Edinburgh + York is more than Leeds + Wakefield + Harrogate so it should get more service surely?

 

[D1537]

Your comment literally says that Edinburgh + York is more than Leeds + Wakefield + Harrogate so it should get more service surely?

Which it is, and it does. The point was that West Yorkshire journeys > York journeys and West Yorkshire journeys > Edinburgh journeys. Therefore, the argument is that West Yorkshire should be getting as good a service as those two locations, which it is not.

 

[Magdalia]

On the latest figures (2023/24), if you count Wakefield, Leeds and Harrogate as a single destination from King's Cross (not unreasonable, since they're the same trains), it was easily the largest figure, exceeding Edinburgh by 25% and York by 40%.

York, Newcastle and Edinburgh are served by the same trains. Using the 2023/24 one way data:

KX-York+Newcastle+Edinburgh 2471550
KX-Wakefield+Leeds+Harrogate 1252230

That's why KX-York-Newcastle-Edinburgh has more capacity than KX-Wakefield-Leeds-Harrogate.

Furthermore, I'd expect forecasts of future traffic growth to have more growth KX-York-Newcastle-Edinburgh than KX-Wakefield-Leeds-Harrogate.

So how are you going to adjust fleet use?

By rewriting the diagrams. In my commuting days FCC did it every timetable change, managing separate fleets of classes 317/321/365. Managing different subclasses of IET isn't much different, and easier than what FCC did because there is much less splitting and joining.

Glad to see though that you've accepted your mistake from earlier though in saying that Cambridge South is the primary driver of the changes north of York and elsewhere.

I never meant to suggest that, sorry if that's the impression I gave. The point that I was making is that Cambridge South is an important driver in implementing the timetable change in December 2025 and not later.

 

[D1537]

By rewriting the diagrams. In my commuting days FCC did it every timetable change, managing separate fleets of classes 317/321/365. Managing different subclasses of IET isn't much different, and easier than what FCC did because there is much less splitting and joining.

Rewriting the diagrams isn't going to help if there isn't enough stock. Simply, you can't have 2tph to Edinburgh, 2tph to West Yorkshire, 1tph to Newcastle, 0.5tph to York, and all the various Lincoln/Hull/M'boro services without a significant number of the diagrams being 5-car.

(To be precise, 42 trains spread across the Newcastle/York/Leeds axis plus all of the Lincoln/Hull/Boro diagrams)

 

[Magdalia]

Rewriting the diagrams isn't going to help if there isn't enough stock.

You are right, but if there isn't enough stock in December, when the new timetable starts, then there isn't enough stock now.

There is roughly the same demand, and roughly the same amount of train capacity, at the start of the new timetable as there is at the end of the old timetable. If the existing fleet is deployed more effectively, then there is a capacity gain.

Simply, you can't have 2tph to Edinburgh, 2tph to West Yorkshire, 1tph to Newcastle, 0.5tph to York, and all the various Lincoln/Hull/M'boro services without a significant number of the diagrams being 5-car.

You are right that running more trains with the same fleet, while the fleet size remains roughly the same, means more 5 car trains. But replacing one ten car train with two 5 car trains doesn't reduce capacity, it shares the same capacity over 2 train paths instead of one. If a train goes down from being a 10 car to a 5 car, that capacity isn't lost, it is being used (hopefully more effectively) somewhere else. 2 full 5 car trains are using capacity more effectively than one half empty 10 car train.

As someone who has travelled the southern end of the ECML for half a century, including 25 years of commuting, I have a strong aversion to using paths up with short trains. But at the start of the December 2025 timetable it makes sense. If the timetable planners have got it right, usage will grow over time, and, if the people building new trains have got it right, train capacity will grow too. Within a few years nearly every train will be 9-10 cars again.

 

[Hadders]

From Stevenage, Thameslink run a 15-minute semi-fast frequency taking up to 30 minutes (as well as Great Northern's half-hourly stopper taking 40 minutes), as against LNER's half-hourly service taking 24 minutes.

Passengers travelling from Stevenage to London have a decent alternative in Thameslink, and while yes it will add a bit of time to some passengers' journeys, it won't be a huge inconvenience. Passengers travelling from Milton Keynes to London don't have a decent alternative on West Midlands, the service is irregular and for the most part much slower, so yes I would support any MKC passengers in their uproar if Avanti withdrew the option to use their trains for that journey!

There is a frequent Thameslink service from Stevenage but there's often disruption. Take last week's issues following the power failure at Blackfriars, LNER services were very useful but I'd imagine they won't want to assist once services become pick-up/set down only.

Making Stevenage passgers take Thameslink will just mean that those trains are busier. They are high capacity trains and they will cope - for now but I suspect things will be tight, especially mid-week evening peak.

LNER between Kings Cross and Stevenage typically takes 21 minutes, Thameslink from St Pancras takes either 27 or 30 minutes (depending on whether it's a Cambridge or Peterborough service). Perhaps a first world problem, but it is an increase in journey time.

LNER has clearly wanted to serve Stevenage in the past, even to the point of having cheaper dedicated fares. I've long regarded these fares as ridiculous but they will lose their share of the fares income between Stevenage and London.

St Pancras low level platforms aren't always the best place to wait for a train, especially when there's disruption. There's no phone signal (to be fair there is wifi but it's about time a phone signal was provided). Once of the escalators from the southbound platform has been out of order for weeks, I don't know why the remaining escalator cannot be reversed to take passengers up from the platform?

Although from December there's trains to Kings Cross 0702, 0749, 0801, 0902, 0919 then your 5-9 minute gap every hour from 0956.

Good luck trying to stop passengers boarding at Stevenage. Thameslink and LNER trains will be either side of an island platform. Local door operation isn't an option due to the numbers alighting from the north (very healthy numbers these days). Will the station staff start shouting at passengers or will it just end up being allowed for 'those in the know'. I can see the 07:02, 07:49 and 08:01 being particular issues, especially when the adjacent Thameslink trains are late or cancelled.

 

[Bletchleyite]

LNER between Kings Cross and Stevenage typically takes 21 minutes, Thameslink from St Pancras takes either 27 or 30 minutes (depending on whether it's a Cambridge or Peterborough service). Perhaps a first world problem, but it is an increase in journey time.

Isn't the trade-off here that most people aren't going to Kings Cross itself but more likely to somewhere served by Thameslink direct, thus losing that disadvantage?

See also the reason why Thameslink is popular from Bedford despite EMR being faster to St Pancras. It's much less like Avanti vs. WMT from Milton Keynes Central where both TOCs go to the same terminus.

 

[Hadders]

Isn't the trade-off here that most people aren't going to Kings Cross itself but more likely to somewhere served by Thameslink direct, thus losing that disadvantage?

If heading along the Grays Inn Road then Kings Cross is much better.

If wanting the Underground Kings Cross is much better. The interchange at Finsbury Park is very useful (especially for the Victoria Line) but it’s sub-optimal having to use the spiral staircase (must be 70 steps from platform to platform).

St Pancras is better if you want Farringdon, London Bridge or you’re travelling to Gatwick or Brighton.

 

[xotGD]

KX-York+Newcastle+Edinburgh 2471550
KX-Wakefield+Leeds+Harrogate 1252230

That's why KX-York-Newcastle-Edinburgh has more capacity than KX-Wakefield-Leeds-Harrogate.

You can't use the York and Newcastle numbers to justify increasing capacity north of Newcastle. Or indeed York numbers to justify increasing capacity north of York.

 

[D1537]

You are right, but if there isn't enough stock in December, when the new timetable starts, then there isn't enough stock now.

There is roughly the same demand, and roughly the same amount of train capacity, at the start of the new timetable as there is at the end of the old timetable. If the existing fleet is deployed more effectively, then there is a capacity gain.

The point is though that the capacity is being moved around, so there are winners and (a significant number of) losers. There is, mostly, enough stock now; but there are 30-odd more LNER trains in the December timetable. Some of that is achieved through more efficient diagramming, but places like West Yorkshire and the stations on the Newcastle and York semi-fast routes (i.e. Durham) will see a capacity loss as their existing 9 or 10-car service is replaced with the same frequency of service but with more of them being 5-car ones (and in the case of the 225 services, 7 cars instead of 9).

Within a few years nearly every train will be 9-10 cars again.

Even with the coming of the 897s in, what, 2027-28? that will not mean full length trains again with this model of timetable. There are only 10 897s which means 8 daily diagrams maximum and of course they will replace the 225s which will be withdrawn, so you're only gaining around four diagrams at the most. To cover the December timetable with a full 9/10 car service and withdraw the 225s you would probably need the 897 order to be 20.

 

[weeklycommuter]

Good luck trying to stop passengers boarding at Stevenage. Thameslink and LNER trains will be either side of an island platform. Local door operation isn't an option due to the numbers alighting from the north (very healthy numbers these days). Will the station staff start shouting at passengers or will it just end up being allowed for 'those in the know'. I can see the 07:02, 07:49 and 08:01 being particular issues, especially when the adjacent Thameslink trains are late or cancelled.

I expect that anyone who boards an LNER train to London Kings Cross at Stevenage will need a ticket to London Kings Cross from the last valid station which will be Grantham for the Newcastle train and Newark for the Leeds train. A ticket from Stevenage to London Kings Cross would not be valid.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I expect that anyone who boards an LNER train to London Kings Cross at Stevenage will need a ticket to London Kings Cross from the last valid station which will be Grantham for the Newcastle train and Newark for the Leeds train. A ticket from Stevenage to London Kings Cross would not be valid.

This is often quoted but I don't believe there is actually anything in writing e.g. in the NRCoT that backs it up.

 

[Magdalia]

You can't use the York and Newcastle numbers to justify increasing capacity north of Newcastle. Or indeed York numbers to justify increasing capacity north of York.

Yes I can, because trains run KX-York-Newcastle-Edinburgh, as they do KX-Wakefield-Leeds-Harrogate.

I could also add in 379377 Newcastle-Edinburgh. 282089 York-Newcastle and 142441 York-Edinburgh.

The point is though that the capacity is being moved around, so there are winners and (a significant number of) losers.

With most changes that's the case, unless there is enough largesse to make everyone a winner. The potential losers always make a lot of noise about it.

places like West Yorkshire and the stations on the Newcastle and York semi-fast routes (i.e. Durham) will see a capacity loss as their existing 9 or 10-car service is replaced with the same frequency of service but with more of them being 5-car ones (and in the case of the 225 services, 7 cars instead of 9)

We don't have full information on the extent of losses yet, that will won't become apparent until the new timetable has run for a few months. A 5 car train isn't a capacity loss compared to a 10 car train if the 10 car train was only half full.

Even with the coming of the 897s in, what, 2027-28? that will not mean full length trains again with this model of timetable. There are only 10 897s which means 8 daily diagrams maximum and of course they will replace the 225s which will be withdrawn, so you're only gaining around four diagrams at the most. To cover the December timetable with a full 9/10 car service and withdraw the 225s you would probably need the 897 order to be 20.

There is a possibility of more new trains (though I accept unlikely), or another stay of execution for the 225s, but neither has to be decided until the new timetable has bedded in and the effects can be seen.

 

[Hadders]

I expect that anyone who boards an LNER train to London Kings Cross at Stevenage will need a ticket to London Kings Cross from the last valid station which will be Grantham for the Newcastle train and Newark for the Leeds train. A ticket from Stevenage to London Kings Cross would not be valid.

It’s not so much about what they can do, it’s what they will do in reality, given the journey time.

I don’t think I’ve ever had a ticket check on LNER or their predecessors between Stevenage and Kings Cross (except once in 1st class). The barriers at Kings Cross can’t be programmed to reject Stevenage tickets, you could do a manual block at Kings Cross but that won’t be popular with longer distance passengers.

My suspicion is there’ll be lots of shouting but not much else.

 

[jfollows]

Mary Kelly Foy MP complaining about the 08:22 Durham-Newcastle being changed and slowed down in the Commons just now.
Winners and losers I guess.

 

[xotGD]

Yes I can, because trains run KX-York-Newcastle-Edinburgh, as they do KX-Wakefield-Leeds-Harrogate.

There are York terminators and Newcastle terminators. Passengers from London to the north of England do not require a train that carries on to Edinburgh.

I could also add in 379377 Newcastle-Edinburgh. 282089 York-Newcastle and 142441 York-Edinburgh.

These passengers don't all travel on LNER.

 

[Twingo37175]

We don't have full information on the extent of losses yet, that will won't become apparent until the new timetable has run for a few months. A 5 car train isn't a capacity loss compared to a 10 car train if the 10 car train was only half full.

There will be others, but I regularly get the 1645 out of Leeds (currently a 91), which is always close to full on leaving Leeds but becomes a 5 car going forward. I accept say the 20.45 out of Leeds (currently a 10) doesn't need the second unit, but there will be plenty of others that this is a clear loss of capacity

 

[YorksLad12]

We don't have full information on the extent of losses yet, that will won't become apparent until the new timetable has run for a few months. A 5 car train isn't a capacity loss compared to a 10 car train if the 10 car train was only half full.

You're mixing capacity and loading. If a motorway has four lanes and two of them are closed off that's a loss of capacity, irrespective of the number of vehicles.

And the "full extent of losses" will be available from Day One, as we see which units run which diagrams. We know that the 225 sets will have two coaches removed; someone posted earlier that 5-car sets will be running from Leeds on consecutive lunchtime journeys.

 

[Bletchleyite]

You're mixing capacity and loading. If a motorway has four lanes and two of them are closed off that's a loss of capacity, irrespective of the number of vehicles.

It is, but if you do that at 3am that loss of capacity will have little or no effect, whereas if you do it at 5:30pm things are probably going to go badly.

 

[YorksLad12]

It is, but if you do that at 3am that loss of capacity will have little or no effect, whereas if you do it at 5:30pm things are probably going to go badly.

Okay... there are four lifts at Covent Garden, and then my argument holds for longer in the day.

 

[Magdalia]

You're mixing capacity and loading. If a motorway has four lanes and two of them are closed off that's a loss of capacity, irrespective of the number of vehicles.

No I'm not mixing them up, though I may be using a terminological exactitude.

It is, but if you do that at 3am that loss of capacity will have little or no effect, whereas if you do it at 5:30pm things are probably going to go badly.

Okay... there are four lifts at Covent Garden, and then my argument holds for longer in the day.

Motorways and lifts are not the same as trains. It isn't possible to move a lane from the M40 to the M1, or move a lift from Green Park to Covent Garden, but it is possible to move train capacity from the Leeds line to the York line, or vice versa. The capacity isn't lost, like closing a motorway lane or a lift, it is moved somewhere else.

5-car sets will be running from Leeds on consecutive lunchtime journeys.

Demand varies considerably through the day, and lunchtime is likely to be the quietest. It is too late for the outward part of most day trips, and too early for the return part of most day trips. For one way journeys, most start in the morning or, if there's time, at the end of the working day.

When the daytime Kings Cross-Kings Lynn service gradually stepped up from 4 cars to 8 cars, it was the lunchtime journeys that stayed 4 cars the longest.

I regularly get the 1645 out of Leeds (currently a 91), which is always close to full on leaving Leeds but becomes a 5 car going forward.

I have to agree this one does look questionable for a 5 car.

 

[D1537]

There will be others, but I regularly get the 1645 out of Leeds (currently a 91), which is always close to full on leaving Leeds but becomes a 5 car going forward. I accept say the 20.45 out of Leeds (currently a 10) doesn't need the second unit, but there will be plenty of others that this is a clear loss of capacity

That same 5-car earlier in its diagram does the 0927 Newcastle-KX, which is the first London train that many railcards are valid on for stations like Durham and Northallerton. That'll be especially fun at the end of university terms.

 

[jon0844]

There is a frequent Thameslink service from Stevenage but there's often disruption. Take last week's issues following the power failure at Blackfriars, LNER services were very useful but I'd imagine they won't want to assist once services become pick-up/set down only.

Making Stevenage passgers take Thameslink will just mean that those trains are busier. They are high capacity trains and they will cope - for now but I suspect things will be tight, especially mid-week evening peak.

LNER between Kings Cross and Stevenage typically takes 21 minutes, Thameslink from St Pancras takes either 27 or 30 minutes (depending on whether it's a Cambridge or Peterborough service). Perhaps a first world problem, but it is an increase in journey time.

LNER has clearly wanted to serve Stevenage in the past, even to the point of having cheaper dedicated fares. I've long regarded these fares as ridiculous but they will lose their share of the fares income between Stevenage and London.

St Pancras low level platforms aren't always the best place to wait for a train, especially when there's disruption. There's no phone signal (to be fair there is wifi but it's about time a phone signal was provided). Once of the escalators from the southbound platform has been out of order for weeks, I don't know why the remaining escalator cannot be reversed to take passengers up from the platform?


Good luck trying to stop passengers boarding at Stevenage. Thameslink and LNER trains will be either side of an island platform. Local door operation isn't an option due to the numbers alighting from the north (very healthy numbers these days). Will the station staff start shouting at passengers or will it just end up being allowed for 'those in the know'. I can see the 07:02, 07:49 and 08:01 being particular issues, especially when the adjacent Thameslink trains are late or cancelled.

St Pancras low level does have phone signal on EE and it's extremely fast. I assume EE funded it themselves as otherwise other networks would surely be using it by now (it's been covered for some time, including the HS1 tunnels).

With contactless being extended to Stevenage, has this got something to do with the changes perhaps?